Overlord_Darkness
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'All of creation' refers to Our Universe since God and such concepts has never been mentioned for something other.It's literally stated to be the origin of all creation where all things were decided
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Swirl of The Root - Nasuverse
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Overlord_Darkness
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Another example of the fact that strong Outer Gods can manifest themselves at will is Nyarlathotep.
The night is still, as if time has stopped.
The calendar and clock are frozen at 11:59 PM on December 31, and they give no indication of moving forward.
"Oh, were you still awake?"
The girl smiles gently by your side.
The name doesn't come to you.
The observatory's lights may be out, but the sky is bright tonight. It's as if deep blackness veils your eyes.
"It's quiet, isn't it? Looks like we're the only ones left." The sweet, gentle voice whispers.
Your fingers go slack. Your memories start to grow hazy. Time comes to a standstill.
And you still can't recall the name.
"Teehee. Do you see this? The stars are all so beautiful."
Looking up at the sky, it seems that it is now too late.
An enormous abyss. Three red stars. The winter constellation gone mad. And a planet where all life has disappeared.
Could this place be a crater on the surface of the moon?
"Teehee. Hehehe...hehehehe..."
■■ smiles by your side.
You can't recall the name. Not her name, but your own name.
This is where you will spend your final night.
A cage in the ravine of time and space.
A honeymoon of confinement you can never escape.
Tdjwo
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This doesn't really prove anything. Nyarlathotep, just like the others cant interact with our universe physically.
Also, please lets not derail from the main topic. Outer Gods can come later on another topic. I also wish for them to rank high but that's not what's on topic currently.
Overlord_Darkness
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Being outside of "this world" and dictating laws outside of "this world" are two different things.
As you could see in the scan above, Yog-Sothoth exists as Our Universe (as well as the Outer Universe, etc.).
Overlord_Darkness
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The essence of what I am trying to convey is that Our Universe may indeed have a complex structure that is sufficient for a High 1-A, but outside of Our Universe there are also things that are no longer under the power of the Root.
Overlord_Darkness
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A strong statement. In fact, this confirms that Outer Gods with sufficient power can surpass the law that restricts, for example, Cthulhu from directly invading Our Universe.
Overlord_Darkness
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Agreed.
Were there arguments that destroyed this claim in the past CRT that was rejected?
Overlord_Darkness
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I don't see here an infinite amount of larger concepts.
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You're claim that it resembles Taoism is fine, but then you brought Set Theory into it with no justification and you're bot doing our TD correctly. TD Type 5 is limited to whatever level of duality the base cosmology is. Being above binary concepts in Nasu is a 1-C showing, not 1-A.
It was.
It wouldn't be High 1-A. Being just 1-A to a cosmology that's 1-C would fit all of criteria. Aleph-2 is so beyond Aleph-1 and Aleph-0 that it's not quantifiable. The gap is so massive that even an infinite amount of Aleph-1 spaces stacked wouldn't reach it.
High 1-A doesn't work within this context.
Tdjwo
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Ah men, I really have to explain this to you, ok.
Origins are concepts that come directly from root it serves as a primordial foundation for everything and everyone it's like a perfect form of something independent of that something it foundates it also how a thing should act or behave that's why those who awaken their origins find it hard to stray away from their origin it's an idea similar to Plato's theory of forms
Now one would be tempted to argue the Origin is just something exclusive to humanity but this isn't the case as even non-sentient things such as plants(as shown in the scan) have their own origin likely everything conceptual (taboo) and physical(human, animals) is subjected to this notion of origin.
Furthermore, the origin of something is the definite truth of something its implied to trace on to infinity implying there are infinite layers of existence each origin getting deeper and reaching deeper and deeper at the end of it all is the primordial state of something that exist as a perfect form of that thing it foundates all physical and conceptual aspects of something and existing as a something that drives that thing in reality and it's direction and placing it into things part of the pattern of reality that matches its physical or conceptual existence
Showcased in multiple instances (older and more fundamental mystery = more power and resists lower mystery. Higher dimensions are qualitatively superior to lower ones, greater authority resists lower authority, even planets having layers/textures of reality some layers even being higher dimensions, higher levels of the concept of death existing as well)
You can also say there's infinite deeper ideas all the way up to its primordial and deepest state this also heavily supports existence of infinite dimensions going deeper and deeper transcending each other as everything within reality due to the existence of origin is layered like a stream tracing on to infinity up to its primordial state
For further context, It's even stated the primordial origin of a human is platonic (the perfect idea of that human) so ye pretty much pertains to or is actually the theory of forms existence in Nasuverse
This allows for concepts to exist in multiple levels higher then normal concepts like the lines of death(his concept of death) of Araya whose concept is several levels higher than the concept of death
so there are those infinite levels of concepts and the end point of those concepts is its true primordial origin existing as a independent concept perfect form of itself that foundates the existence of the lesser concept
Tdjwo
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You are only proving my point. The fact that Cthulhu is only able to affect our universe via the Throne of Heroes (which also exists beyond the Universe and scales lower than the root), shows it isn't superior to the Root.A strong statement. In fact, this confirms that Outer Gods with sufficient power can surpass the law that restricts, for example, Cthulhu from directly invading Our Universe.
Once again, stop bringing in Outer gods into this crt. They aren't relevant to this discussion.
Overlord_Darkness
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That is, Origin is a concept that has another higher Origin and so on indefinitely, deeper and deeper, which eventually leads to the Root, right?Ah men, I really have to explain this to you, ok.
Origins are concepts that come directly from root it serves as a primordial foundation for everything and everyone it's like a perfect form of something independent of that something it foundates it also how a thing should act or behave that's why those who awaken their origins find it hard to stray away from their origin it's an idea similar to Plato's theory of forms
Now one would be tempted to argue the Origin is just something exclusive to humanity but this isn't the case as even non-sentient things such as plants(as shown in the scan) have their own origin likely everything conceptual (taboo) and physical(human, animals) is subjected to this notion of origin.
Furthermore, the origin of something is the definite truth of something its implied to trace on to infinity implying there are infinite layers of existence each origin getting deeper and reaching deeper and deeper at the end of it all is the primordial state of something that exist as a perfect form of that thing it foundates all physical and conceptual aspects of something and existing as a something that drives that thing in reality and it's direction and placing it into things part of the pattern of reality that matches its physical or conceptual existence
Showcased in multiple instances (older and more fundamental mystery = more power and resists lower mystery. Higher dimensions are qualitatively superior to lower ones, greater authority resists lower authority, even planets having layers/textures of reality some layers even being higher dimensions, higher levels of the concept of death existing as well)
You can also say there's infinite deeper ideas all the way up to its primordial and deepest state this also heavily supports existence of infinite dimensions going deeper and deeper transcending each other as everything within reality due to the existence of origin is layered like a stream tracing on to infinity up to its primordial state
For further context, It's even stated the primordial origin of a human is platonic (the perfect idea of that human) so ye pretty much pertains to or is actually the theory of forms existence in Nasuverse
This allows for concepts to exist in multiple levels higher then normal concepts like the lines of death(his concept of death) of Araya whose concept is several levels higher than the concept of death
so there are those infinite levels of concepts and the end point of those concepts is its true primordial origin existing as a independent concept perfect form of itself that foundates the existence of the lesser concept
Overlord_Darkness
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We will talk about that later. Not all OG acts like Cthulhu
Tdjwo
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Fair enough. I would quit arguing with you about this.
It really wasn't. Concepts are literally 1A and I think it's accepted as such on this wiki.
If you read my comments regarding concepts being infinitely layered, you would understand that higher dimensions which also have "origins" are infinitely layered making it High 1B. The Root is qualitatively superior to the notion of dimensions in it making it 1A. [ ] is ontologically superior to the root making it High 1A if we disregard the True Infinity argument.
Overlord_Darkness
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Well then. Now I can agree with you. Put me in the such category.Yes. Exactly. But Mages are unable to reach it because...
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btw what do they mean by soul of the " "?Yes. Exactly. But Mages are unable to reach it because...
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@MrUnderlord @Tdjwo
Please try to condense your comments to one at a time, perhaps two at the most. I see multiple instances in this thread where you two have comments three times in a row or more. Underlord you commented 5 times in a row, there's no need for that, just edit your first comment.
Moreover, to what extent is the tiering in question supported by our rating of Negative Theology? I am currently advocating for it's removal in staff discussion, so that may impact the outcome of this.
Please try to condense your comments to one at a time, perhaps two at the most. I see multiple instances in this thread where you two have comments three times in a row or more. Underlord you commented 5 times in a row, there's no need for that, just edit your first comment.
Moreover, to what extent is the tiering in question supported by our rating of Negative Theology? I am currently advocating for it's removal in staff discussion, so that may impact the outcome of this.
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Where at?
The doesn't work because concepts aren't infinitely layered. But even if they were then the Root still wouldn't be 1-A but Low 1-A and all the stuff about [ ] would still stand.
Tdjwo
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Alright. Mr Underlord was talking about Outer gods and their tiering which isn't really supposed to be relevant to the crt. But I already told him we could talk about it in another thread later.
The tiering as in? Do you mean where negative theology scales on the wiki or in the verse? On this wiki, it's default is 1A and any verse that is already 1A without needing negative theology would become High 1A if there is another entity with Negative theology.
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That has nothing to do with what I said...?
I wasn't asking how we tier NT, I am asking to what extent the tiering of the Root/[ ] is dependent upon how we tier NT. For instance, of NT was no longer a justification for 1-A, what would that affect here?
Tdjwo
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Scroll a little above and you would see my reply to Mr Underlord where I explain how concepts retrace on infinitely to the root.
The concepts in Nasuverse are infinitely layered and I already explained it in Mr. Underlords' comment.
Not really. The outer gods would be Low 1A instead and the root would be 1A.
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You missed the point of my question. You said we accepted them on the wiki as 1-A concepts. When did that happen and where is it mentioned?
They're not infinitely layered, they're all just smaller and broken concepts of a larger original concept that they stream from.
Thats not layered, that's being fragmented pieces from a larger whole.
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It doesn't matter? I'm just saying don't triple-post or quadruple-post. If you have made the most recent comment, don't make another comment, just edit your first comment. I can make some allowances for two comments in a row, but 3-5 is not okay, it's just clutter.
Tdjwo
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Sure. I already stated in the post that I would like to avoid any form of derailment in he comments. I would delete my comments regarding outer gods and if you could help @MrUnderlord delete his, that would be fine as well.
Also, there were a few comments here calling me a wanker and some sort. Please delete them as well.
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The former isn't a thing. People telling you something doesn't make it true.
For the latter can you link it?
Because they're smaller concepts of a bigger concept. It's not layered, it's that at some point things were bigger and got smaller and people are trying to retrace that route.
Overlord_Darkness
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Partly true. But, as you can see from the scans and explanations, the concepts, although they come from the same base - the Root, are still layered on top of each other. This can be described as an Origin having its own, higher Origin, and so on down to the Root. Thus, there is a layering of the conceptual hierarchy.
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But there's a difference between different levels of death and an infinite array of higher death levels. You can say the former but there's nothing for the latter.
Overlord_Darkness
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Something having a higher order and something being infinitely detached from the original concept isn't the same as an infinite amount of infinitely larger concepts.
Overlord_Darkness
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Yes, but as Tdjwo argued, there are actually the latter. However, there are also exists higher order of conception along with infinite amount of infinitely larger concepts. Like, for Gods concept of Death is higher order concept of Death, but this high concept also have infinite amount of larger higher order Death concepts.
EDIT: this is like Archetypes from Cthulhu Mythos. Like, concept have its own greater archetype that have its own greater archetype e.t.c and all of that leads to the source - Root as supreme archetype that gave birth to all other.
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Tdjwo
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The concepts aren't infinitely detached. Idk where you got that from. They are only infinitely traced on which each type of concept being a higher level than the previous. The concept of death for example has higher levels of it.
Idk what to tell you man, that's literally the case
I cant remember the link's name but Seventh holy scripture is truly 1A on this wiki. Roa's soul which is also a concept is 1A on this wiki.
So higher levels of a concept are called what?
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