Supernatural Abilities in Real World Settings

[Sir_Ovens]

It has come to my attention recently from threads such as this and another thread discussing Weather Report's Social Influencing which I can't find at the moment, that we have an issue regarding "supernatural" abilities in settings where there are no superpowers. Or more precisely, powers that are described as not supernatual and yet have supernatural effects. Such powers include Eurus Holmes and her ability to convince people to kill themselves by just talking. Weather Report and his ability to tutn people into snails via subliminal messaging, and recently Ikki Kurogane, who has been debated to have hypnosis for an ability that is clearly perception manip in its mechanics but isn't performed using any supernatural ability.

I've been told that we shouldn't treat these kinds of abilities as special as it's an inflation of ability that allows characters to get around certain resistances. However, some are still pushing for the opposite and so I have come here to put this issue to rest.

Are supernatural abilities with non-supernatural mechanics considered supernatural or not?

Discuss.

 

[The_Impress]

If they're not treated as supernatural within the context of the verse we'll not consider them to be such. Simple as that.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

So we're just supposed to believe that Eurus Holmes can talk EU Darth Sidious into killing himself despite his resistance to mind hax reaching upwards of millions?

 

[00potato]

So we're just supposed to believe that Eurus Holmes can talk EU Darth Sidious into killing himself despite his resistance to mind hax reaching upwards of millions?

Yes

 

[The_Impress]

Yes, because mind resist isn't covering social influencing.

This is essentially the variation of Soul Manip affecting a verse where there aren't explicit statements of a soul, it doesn't matter how many bio resists the opponent has when soulhax are the relevant ones.

Also use a better example lol

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So we're just supposed to believe that Eurus Holmes can talk EU Darth Sidious into killing himself despite his resistance to mind hax reaching upwards of millions?

Yes, cus he didn't control his mind, he convinced him.

It's like saying Talk No Jutsu is supernatural mind hax.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yeah, supernaturaly good normal abilities are dumb, but they are still there.

Ikki, Sasuke and all the big deal martial artist verses can see fifty actions ahead while they know what you are thinking word for word despite such tells physically not existing.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Having absurdly good charisma is intellegence, not mindhax, normally.

Supernatural charisma is it's own thing.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I personally believe that if it's supernatural by real life standards, it is just supernatural

There is no way you can just tell a normal person to kill themselves and have them instantly do it, learn someone's personality from the way they hold a sharpened stick, etc with natural talent or charisma alone.

 

[The_Impress]

Then by that logic most fictional characters have mindhax, like ******* Riddler

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I don't see how that's a bad thing or inaccurate

You going "kill yourself" and then someone doing it regardless of their previous actions or mental state is outright manipulation no matter how much people argue otherwise, because no amount of charisma will just let that happen

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No cus you're just convincing him. Don't look at the odds, frequency or how hard it is to pull off. Look at the mechanics. Talking to someone to convince them to kill themselves is not affecting their mind directly, it's changing their point of view.

Or Risci's example, if you look at someone and can figure out their next 50 moves, doesn't mean it's precog, it's not something you can just pull off as a human, but the key point is you're predicting, not literally seeing the future.

It's not about "if it is natural or supernatural in verse" it's about whether the means of how it is performed are natural or supernatural. Things that are very hard to pull off are just that, very hard to pull off, it differs from something that is plainly supernatural or in verse mechanics. I could go into examples, but i would just be derailing.

 

[The_Impress]

Ok so legit, Riddler, who by context of his verse is just a smart dude, has mindhax because "he cant do that irl".

I think that logic speaks for itself, doesn't it?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Your average supergenius who can make a time machine using 2 sticks and a spoon, that's just supergenius. Is it normal or IRL acceptable? Ofc not, but it is still just IQ, we're not gonna give him matter hax from that, it is just stupid.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

So you're saying don't look at it logically? Because that is literally what you are saying. The mechanics don't matter on things like this, because again no amount of charisma will allow you to make a perfectly normal person just off himself.

Except that ******* is precog by definition. You are predicting what someone will do in the future. That is literally a form of precog.

I never said it was Earl. There's a difference between real life charisma and ******* Reinhard Heydrich's charisma, mainly that the latter is very blatantly mind hax. Very hard to pull off =/= outright ******* impossible and completely illogical.

Also the supergenius example is a false equivalency. Mostly because we probably would for a situation like that depending in what exactly happened.

@Zark

No because it only does if your perspective is already the one in use, which it is not. Your argument only works if your conclusion is correct, which is extremely debatable. Just going "but smart man has mind hax now!" means absolutely ******* nothing.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>Look at this logically

>The mechanics don't matter.

Well that's just a lovely way to find logic in stuff eh?

No amount of real life charisma, i am not entirely sure. People can be driven to some insane shit with the right real life methods. Watch from 14:22 to 14:45 . But even then, there is a difference between "convincing" and "telling" people do to something.

No because you are "predicting". Otherwise predicting the weather would be precog as well.

Yes, there is a difference, and that difference is called fiction. Doesn't make it any less charisma though. You don't need to resist more minds than he affected. Being insanely stubborn will work just fine against it.

Why is it false equivalency? IQ cannot get that treatment despite doing the same thing as everything else we're talking about, but everything else can be called supernatural? Quite the fairness in application of the standard we got here.

 

[Tago238]

I mean the thing is that something being what we are defining as "supernatural" seems like a dumb distinction. Mind hax isn't just mind hax because it's "supernatural" it's because it effects a non physical essence, which is the mind. Isn't the logic behind how we treat effecting non physical essences like souls and minds via how many they effect because we treat them as immaterial Cartesian kind of things, which are basically real although we can't directly conceptualise them because our imaginations are formed from experiences around us, so ergo real life logic like "vaporising 5 people requires more "power" than vaporising one person" applies (at least that's how I thought of them).

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Well, you're the one pushing for an ability that fits every definition of Perception Manipulation to be something else solely because of combined headcanon, so I wouldn't consider myself very illogical in comparision.

You do realize that the fake martial arts stuff is the result of centuries of isolation and nationalism right? It's not like some dude went "karate lets you manipulate chi" a decade ago and everyone fell for it.

False equivalency. Predicting what someone will do that far ahead is blatant precog, and it literally states so on the page.

Yeah, fiction tends to take shit to extremes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't not become supernatural. If you saw the president of the united states just say "Die" during a speech, followed by everyone in the crowd immediately offing themselves, you cannot tell me you wouldn't consider it supernatural.

Because this is related to powers, not IQ. You have no basis for bringing that up outside of the facade of an example of your point. Also, IQ does depending on the justification, so stop repeating yourself about "fairness" like you're doing anything but trying to make the opposition give up.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I don't see how the origins of an ability in the real world matter.

Semantics really aren't important, it's the mechanics that are. If someone can walk up to a person and talk them into killing themselves and their family through sheer way with words, you can call that mind manipulation, but it's not going to be resisted by someone that resists their mind being magically controlled, because the cause is different regardless of the effect being the same.

Both may end up in death, but resisting avada kedavra won't make you immune to biological manip shutting of your cells.

 

[Andytrenom]

Mechanics matter more in determining whether you will resist something than the end result. You can tear someone to pieces with both telekinesis and deconstruction, doesn't mean someone who resists one resists the other.

In fiction, simple persuasion is allowed to have unrealistic effects, because RL logic is thrown out, but that doesn't mean the actual process becomes hijacking a brain like conventional mind manipulation. The mechanics are still unrelated so resistances should not be shared

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's was a splendid way of derailing and pulling an appeal to motive fallacy there. I ask how you can explain the logic of things without taking mechanics of the ability into account and you bring up an argument about a character i am making in a completely unrelated thread. Stay on topic pls.

You literally did not watch the part of the video i told you to watch you legit just read the title. My boi, the part i told you to watch literally has nothing to do with martial arts.

It says on the page because we wanted to have Analytical Prediction and Precog as one page. And it is not blatant precog, it is just doing the same thing everyone does, but to greater extents, seeing more moves ahead. The core of the ability and its mechanics remain unchanged.

If everyone said "He makes a pretty good point" and then proceeded to willingly do it, it is supernatural, it is fictional, it is not mind control though.

So IQ gets a fair pass because "it's IQ" is that seriously the argument for why IQ is unrelated to this?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Mechanics matter more in determining whether you will resist something than the end result. You can tear someone to pieces with both telekinesis and deconstruction, doesn't mean someone who resists one resists the other.
In fiction, simple persuasion is allowed to have unrealistic effects, because RL logic is thrown out, but that doesn't mean the actual process becomes hijacking a brain like conventional mind manipulation. The mechanics are still unrelated so resistances should not be shared

Needless to say. I agree.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

You need to stay on topic as well, since the IQ shit is totally unrelated.

I've actually read on this kinda stuff before, so the smarm is unneccesary.

So you disagree with the precog page? Go get that changed before making your point, then.

That was not part of the example. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Please show me where I said that. Because I did not

 

[Andytrenom]

Honestly, asking whether the ability is supernatural isn't even the right question. It's not like resistance should apply to one ability simply because another ability produces the same effect and is also supernatural. Like I said above, it's the in-between that matters, so even if we do consider certain cases of persuasion supernatural, that doesn't mean they should be stopped by mind hax resistance

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Let me ask a better question then.

You have a normal middle-aged man. He's got a loving wife and family, a high-paying job, and is overall loving life. Some guy walks up to him in the street and says "Kill yourself." The first man does it instantly and without hesitation.

How is that not outright manipulation?

There is literally no way that he was simply convinced to do so, regardless of the logic you try to apply. The man had absolutely no reason to comply, and in fact a large amount of reasons not to, but did anyways without even thinking.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So you're gonna keep not answering my previous point and keep derailing. Sure

Then why mention martial arts? That is literally people leading groups of people to weird behaviour, murder and group suicide.

I do not disagree. We just decided to have them both called "Precog" and state the exact way it is done. Doesn't mean that both are literally the same.

I never put words in your mouth, i completed your example. Your example left out the "whether they do it willingly or not".

Because this is related to powers, not IQ. The argument not to bring IQ up is "this is about powers, not IQ".

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Ok smartass. Mechanics don't matter for things like fictional SI because it is indistinguishable from outright manipulation. See the above example.

I am really goddamn confused here. You literally posted a video about fake martial art stuff in order to prove your point and I showed how it literally doesn't help your point at all.

I never said they were exactly the same. It's still the same intended outcome, which is seeing the future, regardless of how it is done. The only leeway i'll give here is that resisting prediction is far from resisting outright future sight and are very different things.

Please reread my example and tell me where your words were there. Because they were not.

Literally nothing about anything I said can be interpreted as what you are saying. My point is that you bringing up IQ is completely unrelated to anything going on here.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yeah... if all this thread is about literal semantics, I would unfollow if you guys don't mind Weather you call it supernatural, manipulation or whatever, as long as its agreed that resisting one and the other are different things it really doesn't matter. Verse equal still makes the abilities work, and Palpy will still be talked into killing himself.

 

[Andytrenom]

Let me ask a better question then.

If it's explained in-universe that he used some magic ju ju or whatever, then sure, it's likely direct manipulation. But if it's explained in universe as persuasion skills, then that's what it is, even if the verse would have to throw out RL logic

When a character has super powers that won't function in the real world, we don't try to insert mechanics into it that explain their working from a logical standpoint, such as a speedster having friction manipulation to stay safe or whatever. In the same vein we shouldn't insert mechanics in case of outlandish persuasion feats, and try to make them the same as conventional mind manipulation

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Andy, your entire argument assumes that you are already correct.

Try again.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Wow. That is... wow.

What are you even arguing for? What does it matter if its supernatural by real world standards if resistances don't apply to it regardless?

And we take the fiction's logic before real world logic, obviously. That is correct.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Yeah, how dare I use common sense.

I'm arguing that blatantly supernatural feats of SI, stealth, etc be considered outright powers. Because the SI example is so ludicrously far from logical or realistic that it's literally no different from outright mind manipulation, and should therefore be resistable as such.

You seem to be forgetting that wiki standards are still involved, otherwise resistances from one verse would never be useful against powers from another, as an example.

 

[Promestein]

Weather Report is basically just Mind Manipulation targeting your subconscious to make you think you're a snail, and then transmute you into one. Listing it as Social Influencing is dishonest. It's unconventional Mind Manipulation, is all.

Eurus talking one person into killing themself doesn't mean she can talk anyone into it. There's context, the person's mental state, the person's life history, what she says - it's completely different from Weather Report anyways.

I think listing it as Social Influencing is fine, but that doesn't mean every weird super charismatic character should have SI rather than Mind Manipulation. At some point this charm is just the vector for something supernatural.

 

[Andytrenom]

" Andy, your entire argument assumes that you are already correct."

Is it because in my case it is confirmed as persuasion?

Alright, if there are no contextual clues showing that the person may have simply had conventional mind manip, and exaggerated cases of persuasion is something that can be expected, then that's a situation where the persuasion mechanic can be assumed

However, if what you're trying to argue is not what mechanic can be assumed in a given situation, but whether persuasion based abilities as a whole can be resisted by mind manip resistance, then I have no clue what you're trying to say with you statement

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You seem to be forgetting that wiki standards are still involved, otherwise resistances from one verse would never be useful against powers from another, as an example.

All the other parts don't matter. Semantics, as I said. This part is just wrong however.

You only resist something with similar enough cause. Again, death manip vs biological manip. Same effect, different powers, need different resistances.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Amazing rebuttal. I'm sure it will go down in VS debating history.

That's literally not what i meant at all. I meant that, without wiki standards, there wouldn't really be a way to say that one character who resists soul hax would be able to resist soul hax from another verse without very good reason. And I'm not referring to potency.

@Andy

My point is that you were using the logic you are trying to have implemented, and which currently isn't just as an fyi, to rebuke my example against it. That just makes no goddamn sense.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Amazing rebuttal. I'm sure it will go down in VS debating history.
That's literally not what i meant at all. I meant that, without wiki standards, there wouldn't really be a way to say that one character who resists soul hax would be able to resist soul hax from another verse without very good reason. And I'm not referring to potency.

Please stop being needlessly belitelling. It will hardly convince anyone.

I do not see how the standards about that matter here. Weather it's killing you by ripping out your soul, or immobilizing you, both abilities are caused by soul manip. Potency doesn't even come into this thread's discussion.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

You aren't exactly convincing anyone by refusing to deal with my points either. Glass houses, amiright?

I don't either, but you were the who kept it going from my example that wasn't even remotely intended to be a big thing. My overall point was that you ignore the fact that wiki standards exist in order reign in fictional """"""logic"""""", because otherwise it would be absolute chaos.

 

[Andytrenom]

Logic I'm trying to have implemented? That an ability with different mechanics can't be stopped by the same resistance? That's not something I have to prove, it's basic common sense, it is the mechanics of a power that interacts with resistance, not the end result, so of course the mechanics is important, not the end result. It's dumb to suggest you resist time reversal based EE, because you resist void manipulation based EE, for example

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Ok so, brb making resistance to soul attacks and soul stealing completely different because that is exactly what you are saying should happen. Also yes you do in fact have to prove that, because some abilities that have the same label function and do things very differently.