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After the recent downgrade to 6-C for the Super Mario Bros franchise, I feel like a lot wasn't discussed in the thread for the proposed changes. On top of that, I realized that Mario was missing quite a few powers and abilities after taking a bigger delve into the franchise. So, for this thread, I'll be proposing new powers and abilities I believe the star of the franchise should have along with some talking points for new tiers. Let's begin...
For this reason, I believe Mario should be given Automatic Translation
This alone should prove that Mario has Enhanced Senses.
Along with what he already has, he's also created functioning robots in Donkey Kong Junior as well as the Mini-Marios, which function in combat against DK and other enemies throughout the Mario vs Donkey Kong series. Additionally, he's the one who makes his pills in Dr. Mario, which can cure people with the flu instantly and are stated to cure anything. The colored viruses are lethal, as in Super Paper Mario, a Shayde has stated to have died from them. Mario's megavitamins are also wanted by a scientist, researcher, robotics engineer, and archaeologist as well as Mad Scienstein because he needed them to cure a cold he couldn't cure. He can excel in many sports such as basketball, soccer, tennis, golf, baseball, bike riding, football, hockey, dodgeball, shooting, and driving as well as take up other careers such as a carpenter, construction/demolition worker, plumber, soldier, brewery worker, cement factory worker, artist, referee, archaeologist, chef, animal trainer, pilot, and submarine captain.
This is just the tip of the iceberg, but added on top of what he already has in his Intelligence section, I think it would be enough to make Mario an Extraordinary Genius.
We've seen Mario use a plethora of weapons and paraphernalia throughout the series, but in some games like Yoshi's Safari and Mario Party 4, he's displayed skill with guns and blasters. As our Marksmanship page on the wiki says, this ability refers to clearly superhuman skill and ability to shoot and hit targets with firearms or projectiles. It involves a combination of knowledge, technique, focus, and physical coordination. The term is often associated with firearms, such as rifles, pistols, and shotguns, but it can also apply to bows, crossbows, or any other type of projectile.
Now, this isn't all the missing powers and abilities I covered, but I'll list some more in the comments of the thread.
Argument #1: "Mario can die from a goomba"
This is just factoring in solely gameplay and ignoring the lore aspect of Mario. It's CONSISTENT that Goombas are bottom of the barrel as far as enemies Mario faces. We have guides that cite Goombas as being a joke to Mario and enemies that he can take on without much of an issue.
This is also proven by the fact that Goombas are typically placed in LARGE numbers and are called some of the weakest of Bowser's forces. The former suggests that, unlike the stronger forces, they need units to even stand a remote chance
Saying Goombas can easily kill Mario is like saying they're on his level, and as we already know, this would be an example of an outlier, according to the Outlier page on the wiki which states the same about Mario Bros and Kirby.
Typically this is used by people who lowball Mario or don't have much awareness of powerscaling.
Argument #2: "Mario can't break giant rocks"
There's a moment in Origami King, where Mario is unable to break a giant rock blocking the path. While Mario is portrayed as weaker than some characters such as Wario, he's still comparable and Wario can EASILY and casually break large boulders. Mario has been depicted time and time again as being able to destroy large bricks easily and do so without much of a challenge and has feats of kicking an ENTIRE Castle with ease or causing one to collapse by jumping atop it.
Narratively speaking, it's consistent that Mario can topple things MUCH bigger than a large boulder
Argument #3: "Mario can't survive high falls"
This doesn't just apply to Mario but also to the whole cast. As early as the SECOND game (in the US), we see that Mario and crew can survive falls from immense heights, and in Super Mario Sunshine, Mario can survive a HUGE fall and no sell it completely. Here's a scene of Mario getting knocked off a whole building and seemingly fine afterward; in this same scene, we see that Mario is merely staggered by the force of the fall, not harmed by it in any way. In Dream Team, Mario jumps off a cliff on a higher part of this mountain as part of the narrative and casually tanks it with Luigi in the end.
Since we already have examples of Mario being able to consistently tank large falls in the series, I think cases, where this applies to characters such as Bowser, are outliers, considering Bowser is treated as physically comparable, if not stronger.
Argument #4: "Mario got knocked out of the sky"
People think Mario getting knocked out in Mario Odyssey after he had fought Bowser was proof he wasn't Tier 4, but he was COMPLETELY fine afterward and had no signs of injury. You also have to keep in mind Mario had just got down fighting, so that can explain why that even happened
Argument #5: "Mario and Bowser get hurt from explosions"
This is a gag that shouldn't be taken seriously. It's the classic "explosion goes off prematurely" joke that was popularized by several older cartoons. We see in many instances that Mario and others aren't hurt by them in any capacity but just merely covered in ashes. Although it can be argued Cape Mario loses his cape in Super Mario World, if Mario had been so hurt by an explosion, he would have lost his Mushroom power-up as well. No matter how you scratch it, this moment isn't valid to use as it's not only a gag but it doesn't even hurt Mario as opposed to merely pausing him.
Here's an explosion that Bowser shakes off literally seconds later. The Bob-ombs don't even look like normal bombs and that's important because we can likely deduce these aren't meant to be normal bombs, and hence they can harm him when thrown into them.
Argument #6: "Bowser almost died from a castle collapsing"
Does anyone even know HOW MANY times Bowser has survived the destruction of his castle and was either in decent condition or essentially unscathed? For example, this happened in New Super Mario Bros Wii and Bowser is completely fine, mind you, doing this whilst injured.
This is most likely plot-induced stupidity unless we can prove that Mario is consistently threatened by castles collapsing upon him.
Argument #7: "Bowser can't survive lava"
Let's be honest, Bowser's relationship with lava is very weird, but we've seen examples of him being able to survive in it just fine whilst in others it explicitly melts his skin off, yet Bowser has never actually been harmed by it significantly. Even when reduced to bone, Bowser was just fine afterward and that's how we got Dry Bowser (aka just Bowser but his skin burned off, not dead or anything lol)
Also, heat and durability aren't fully tied to one another. You can have multiversal durability but still be susceptible to immense heat if you aren't used to that level of heat. Whenever I get this, I always use the example of "a character can tank the Big Bang itself but still be burned by the immense heat it produced. It doesn't mean the character didn't just tank a big bang to the face" as it highlights the difference between the two concepts. Either way, the argument still fails as Bowser has never really been significantly harmed by heat but it's merely impeded his actions and stopped him momentarily.
Let me throw out an analogy... Say a character can survive the Big Bang but the IMMENSE heat of said Big Bang severely harms them... Why would we ignore that he can survive the Big Bang just because it was specifically the heat that caused him pain and not the sheer power that the Big Bang holds? Because it's the same premise here, as Bowser wasn't bothered by the power but rather its heat
The bottom line is that being burned by heat means little and is completely independent of the Reactor's power. Bowser being affected by the heat would just be an example of him being unable to tank immense heat but we already have examples of Bowser not being bothered by immensely hot environments.
Argument #8: "Peach can't break a cage"
This argument is fallacious for a multitude of reasons, as it lacks context and just ignores basic principles of gaming. First off, it's heavily implied that the cages that Peach is put into are magical and not some everyday regular cage (also evident by Kamek being able to poof them away)
Secondly, this argument ignores what a game is. The point of the Mario Bros games is to rescue Peach and if she could just break out, then it defeats the status quo of Mario as a whole. So even if they were magical cages, it wouldn't matter because this point ignores the very premise of a game, which is to entertain.
Argument #1: "Mario's never treated as a stellar/cosmic-level threat who can destroy stars and universes"
If we're rejecting FEATS based on how a series treats a character, logistically, we should just have most video game characters in the series at Tier 9. When you go down this road of logic, why even power scale or suspend disbelief or account for what the feats themselves tell us about a character's power? Plus, if Mario and the cast are THIS WEAK, capping at only Tier 9, what would be the point in downgrading them to Tier 6 or even calculating feats that would yield results above Tier 9?
Argument #2: "If Mario characters had stellar/cosmic-level durability, they wouldn't be threatened"
This logic is flawed because, at the end of the day, Super Mario Bros is a game series that's innately going to suffer from moments like this. After all, the creators don't focus on the scaling chain entirely. This also disregards the most basic principles of scaling, and no matter how you look at it, it's just another version of the typical "if X can destroy this, why doesn't he destroy Y with his basic punches" AOE fallacy. The same argument applies here in the sense that it's fiction; writers focus on the story first and then everything else. Think about it... If you had one video game series where the creators only focused on the power of characters, where's the fun in that?
Argument #1: "Power Stars only create small realms"
The statements regarding the worlds they create go against this and undermine how large these realms can be in size. Let's go over how big these realms the Powers Stars create can be in size.
As we know, the plot of 64 is that Bowser created different worlds with the Power Stars, and they're referred to as a world twice and official guides state they're "worldwide" which indicates that they are on a vast scale and should be big enough to encompass reality. It's also stated that Bowser was going to encompass said paintings into all of reality. Additionally, Big Boo is stated to come from an extra-dimensional place, and it should also be noted that they do have their flow of time as Wiggler states he can see the stars appear during the night, and Tick Tock Clock's flow of time varies on the time of the clock. So we know that these paintings are referred to as different worlds, are extra-dimensional, and have their flow of time.
We also know that Power Stars are said to be comparable to the Grand Stars in the Mario Galaxy series, and Bowser with a Grand Star was able to threaten the universe and determine its fate.
Even if this doesn't prove the realms are the size of universes, we should take into account the contents they can contain other than just stars.
Argument #2: "Power Stars don't scale to users"
Power Stars should scale to the user, as we have many instances of them empowering the characters who are holding onto them or Power Stars being able to amplify users. One of the most blatant examples of this comes from Mario Party DS, where it's directly told that Mario uses the power of the stars. Here, it's very blatant as it tells us exactly what the purpose of them is, which is to power users. In both versions of Mario 64, Power Stars give power to those who collect them, indicating that just having them gives you power alone (for those who are hard-pressed on English translations, this is consistent with the original Japanese text). There are more examples such as Mario Galaxy, where Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and that they used them to obtain the form they take now. Besides, how else would Mario beat Bowser in Super Mario 64 who was also amped by the Power Stars and claimed that Mario's star power was useless against him in the final battle?
Suffice it to say, those who have Power Stars SHOULD be empowered by them. We have many games across many different eras of Mario that consistently point to the notion that Power Stars are a source of power to those who collect them and bosses who use them can even obtain a different form and become stronger than the first time they were fought.
Argument #3: "Bowser Jr. is scared of an explosion"
Do you mean the same machine that contained The Grand Star and was empowered by it? Of course, he'd be scared of that because it's powered by one of the most powerful items in the verse and also we see it doesn't even harm him significantly as opposed to pushing him out. He blatantly tanked the explosion but was simply ejected due to the force of it.
Argument #4: "The Reactor would only affect a galaxy; it didn't utilize the Grand Star's full power"
This misconception comes from the fact that the game itself says that Bowser will create his galaxy and he simply intends to spread his empire... This ignores the context, as Bowser's empire had ALREADY expanded and we have evidence of this, such as Bowser's minions being in another Trial Galaxy, a place that exists at the ends of the universe. To say he was only affecting a galaxy is ridiculous because Bowser states he wants his universe in one translation.
Let's also address that Bowser was using so much of the Grand Star's power that the Lumas were genuinely scared it would kill it. This implies that Bowser was using a huge sum of its power, enough to where if nothing was done, Bowser would've exhausted its power and ultimately drained it entirely of its energy.
Special thanks and credit to: @ZespeonGalaxy @StretchSebe @Foxthefox1000
Agree:
Disagree (please read the arguments first and then state your reasoning; no anti-feats):
Neutral:
Powers and Abilities
Automatic Translation
Anyone who's played particular games in the Super Mario series knows that various species such as Yoshis, Chain Chomps, and even Shroobs don't speak like the Mario Bros and other human characters in the series. Looking at the context of all of these, we already know that Mario should learn the Yoshi language since he's spent his entire life with Yoshis, considering nothing suggests they tried to teach it to him or anything. Even though he's spent a large portion of his time fighting Chain Chomps, he still rarely interacts with them other than fighting, and so he just happens to be able to understand them from mere utterances that they've given during combat. The Shroobs have only ever fought him, yet he could understand a complex dead language after only hearing a few phrases of it during combat with Shroobs over a few days' worth of time.For this reason, I believe Mario should be given Automatic Translation
Enhanced Senses
This one's relatively simple. A Nintendo Player's Guide states that Mario's nose acts as a "trouble sniffer", his "hearing is a direct line for princesses in peril", and his eyes are "ever-peeled Bowser indicators".This alone should prove that Mario has Enhanced Senses.
Extraordinary Genius Intelligence
Here's why I think Mario should get "possibly Extraordinary Genius" intelligence...Along with what he already has, he's also created functioning robots in Donkey Kong Junior as well as the Mini-Marios, which function in combat against DK and other enemies throughout the Mario vs Donkey Kong series. Additionally, he's the one who makes his pills in Dr. Mario, which can cure people with the flu instantly and are stated to cure anything. The colored viruses are lethal, as in Super Paper Mario, a Shayde has stated to have died from them. Mario's megavitamins are also wanted by a scientist, researcher, robotics engineer, and archaeologist as well as Mad Scienstein because he needed them to cure a cold he couldn't cure. He can excel in many sports such as basketball, soccer, tennis, golf, baseball, bike riding, football, hockey, dodgeball, shooting, and driving as well as take up other careers such as a carpenter, construction/demolition worker, plumber, soldier, brewery worker, cement factory worker, artist, referee, archaeologist, chef, animal trainer, pilot, and submarine captain.
This is just the tip of the iceberg, but added on top of what he already has in his Intelligence section, I think it would be enough to make Mario an Extraordinary Genius.
Marksmanship
Another simple ability I think Mario should get is Marksmanship.We've seen Mario use a plethora of weapons and paraphernalia throughout the series, but in some games like Yoshi's Safari and Mario Party 4, he's displayed skill with guns and blasters. As our Marksmanship page on the wiki says, this ability refers to clearly superhuman skill and ability to shoot and hit targets with firearms or projectiles. It involves a combination of knowledge, technique, focus, and physical coordination. The term is often associated with firearms, such as rifles, pistols, and shotguns, but it can also apply to bows, crossbows, or any other type of projectile.
Memory Manipulation
I believe Cappy should be able to get Memory Manipulation in the form of Mario being able to see all of the memories from whoever he captures, allowing him to know what kind of attacks they do, how they fight, what's their weakness, etc. We can see this during the start and at the end of the game and we can see visuals of the characters' memories. This also might explain why Mario can use said captured enemies' powers without any form of practice.Now, this isn't all the missing powers and abilities I covered, but I'll list some more in the comments of the thread.
Tiering
Base key
Low 6-B
Frankly, I don't have a problem with Bowser being Low 6-B via his size, but seeing as his size is recurring in the Mario Bros games, I feel like Mario and Luigi should scale to this in base without the use of power-ups since there are plenty of instances of characters withstanding attacks from and damaging a giant Bowser. That should be evident enough for the cast to be placed at Low 6-B. Now, let's get into the arguments...Argument #1: "Mario can die from a goomba"
This is just factoring in solely gameplay and ignoring the lore aspect of Mario. It's CONSISTENT that Goombas are bottom of the barrel as far as enemies Mario faces. We have guides that cite Goombas as being a joke to Mario and enemies that he can take on without much of an issue.
This is also proven by the fact that Goombas are typically placed in LARGE numbers and are called some of the weakest of Bowser's forces. The former suggests that, unlike the stronger forces, they need units to even stand a remote chance
Saying Goombas can easily kill Mario is like saying they're on his level, and as we already know, this would be an example of an outlier, according to the Outlier page on the wiki which states the same about Mario Bros and Kirby.
Typically this is used by people who lowball Mario or don't have much awareness of powerscaling.
Argument #2: "Mario can't break giant rocks"
There's a moment in Origami King, where Mario is unable to break a giant rock blocking the path. While Mario is portrayed as weaker than some characters such as Wario, he's still comparable and Wario can EASILY and casually break large boulders. Mario has been depicted time and time again as being able to destroy large bricks easily and do so without much of a challenge and has feats of kicking an ENTIRE Castle with ease or causing one to collapse by jumping atop it.
Narratively speaking, it's consistent that Mario can topple things MUCH bigger than a large boulder
Argument #3: "Mario can't survive high falls"
This doesn't just apply to Mario but also to the whole cast. As early as the SECOND game (in the US), we see that Mario and crew can survive falls from immense heights, and in Super Mario Sunshine, Mario can survive a HUGE fall and no sell it completely. Here's a scene of Mario getting knocked off a whole building and seemingly fine afterward; in this same scene, we see that Mario is merely staggered by the force of the fall, not harmed by it in any way. In Dream Team, Mario jumps off a cliff on a higher part of this mountain as part of the narrative and casually tanks it with Luigi in the end.
Since we already have examples of Mario being able to consistently tank large falls in the series, I think cases, where this applies to characters such as Bowser, are outliers, considering Bowser is treated as physically comparable, if not stronger.
Argument #4: "Mario got knocked out of the sky"
People think Mario getting knocked out in Mario Odyssey after he had fought Bowser was proof he wasn't Tier 4, but he was COMPLETELY fine afterward and had no signs of injury. You also have to keep in mind Mario had just got down fighting, so that can explain why that even happened
Argument #5: "Mario and Bowser get hurt from explosions"
This is a gag that shouldn't be taken seriously. It's the classic "explosion goes off prematurely" joke that was popularized by several older cartoons. We see in many instances that Mario and others aren't hurt by them in any capacity but just merely covered in ashes. Although it can be argued Cape Mario loses his cape in Super Mario World, if Mario had been so hurt by an explosion, he would have lost his Mushroom power-up as well. No matter how you scratch it, this moment isn't valid to use as it's not only a gag but it doesn't even hurt Mario as opposed to merely pausing him.
Here's an explosion that Bowser shakes off literally seconds later. The Bob-ombs don't even look like normal bombs and that's important because we can likely deduce these aren't meant to be normal bombs, and hence they can harm him when thrown into them.
Argument #6: "Bowser almost died from a castle collapsing"
Does anyone even know HOW MANY times Bowser has survived the destruction of his castle and was either in decent condition or essentially unscathed? For example, this happened in New Super Mario Bros Wii and Bowser is completely fine, mind you, doing this whilst injured.
This is most likely plot-induced stupidity unless we can prove that Mario is consistently threatened by castles collapsing upon him.
Argument #7: "Bowser can't survive lava"
Let's be honest, Bowser's relationship with lava is very weird, but we've seen examples of him being able to survive in it just fine whilst in others it explicitly melts his skin off, yet Bowser has never actually been harmed by it significantly. Even when reduced to bone, Bowser was just fine afterward and that's how we got Dry Bowser (aka just Bowser but his skin burned off, not dead or anything lol)
Also, heat and durability aren't fully tied to one another. You can have multiversal durability but still be susceptible to immense heat if you aren't used to that level of heat. Whenever I get this, I always use the example of "a character can tank the Big Bang itself but still be burned by the immense heat it produced. It doesn't mean the character didn't just tank a big bang to the face" as it highlights the difference between the two concepts. Either way, the argument still fails as Bowser has never really been significantly harmed by heat but it's merely impeded his actions and stopped him momentarily.
Let me throw out an analogy... Say a character can survive the Big Bang but the IMMENSE heat of said Big Bang severely harms them... Why would we ignore that he can survive the Big Bang just because it was specifically the heat that caused him pain and not the sheer power that the Big Bang holds? Because it's the same premise here, as Bowser wasn't bothered by the power but rather its heat
The bottom line is that being burned by heat means little and is completely independent of the Reactor's power. Bowser being affected by the heat would just be an example of him being unable to tank immense heat but we already have examples of Bowser not being bothered by immensely hot environments.
Argument #8: "Peach can't break a cage"
This argument is fallacious for a multitude of reasons, as it lacks context and just ignores basic principles of gaming. First off, it's heavily implied that the cages that Peach is put into are magical and not some everyday regular cage (also evident by Kamek being able to poof them away)
Secondly, this argument ignores what a game is. The point of the Mario Bros games is to rescue Peach and if she could just break out, then it defeats the status quo of Mario as a whole. So even if they were magical cages, it wouldn't matter because this point ignores the very premise of a game, which is to entertain.
Argument #1: "Mario's never treated as a stellar/cosmic-level threat who can destroy stars and universes"
If we're rejecting FEATS based on how a series treats a character, logistically, we should just have most video game characters in the series at Tier 9. When you go down this road of logic, why even power scale or suspend disbelief or account for what the feats themselves tell us about a character's power? Plus, if Mario and the cast are THIS WEAK, capping at only Tier 9, what would be the point in downgrading them to Tier 6 or even calculating feats that would yield results above Tier 9?
Argument #2: "If Mario characters had stellar/cosmic-level durability, they wouldn't be threatened"
This logic is flawed because, at the end of the day, Super Mario Bros is a game series that's innately going to suffer from moments like this. After all, the creators don't focus on the scaling chain entirely. This also disregards the most basic principles of scaling, and no matter how you look at it, it's just another version of the typical "if X can destroy this, why doesn't he destroy Y with his basic punches" AOE fallacy. The same argument applies here in the sense that it's fiction; writers focus on the story first and then everything else. Think about it... If you had one video game series where the creators only focused on the power of characters, where's the fun in that?
Power Star key
3-C, possibly 3-A/Low 2-C
Let's address the arguments as to why I believe the Power Stars should be rated back at "possibly Low 2-C", or at the very least "possibly 3-A"...Argument #1: "Power Stars only create small realms"
The statements regarding the worlds they create go against this and undermine how large these realms can be in size. Let's go over how big these realms the Powers Stars create can be in size.
As we know, the plot of 64 is that Bowser created different worlds with the Power Stars, and they're referred to as a world twice and official guides state they're "worldwide" which indicates that they are on a vast scale and should be big enough to encompass reality. It's also stated that Bowser was going to encompass said paintings into all of reality. Additionally, Big Boo is stated to come from an extra-dimensional place, and it should also be noted that they do have their flow of time as Wiggler states he can see the stars appear during the night, and Tick Tock Clock's flow of time varies on the time of the clock. So we know that these paintings are referred to as different worlds, are extra-dimensional, and have their flow of time.
We also know that Power Stars are said to be comparable to the Grand Stars in the Mario Galaxy series, and Bowser with a Grand Star was able to threaten the universe and determine its fate.
Even if this doesn't prove the realms are the size of universes, we should take into account the contents they can contain other than just stars.
Argument #2: "Power Stars don't scale to users"
Power Stars should scale to the user, as we have many instances of them empowering the characters who are holding onto them or Power Stars being able to amplify users. One of the most blatant examples of this comes from Mario Party DS, where it's directly told that Mario uses the power of the stars. Here, it's very blatant as it tells us exactly what the purpose of them is, which is to power users. In both versions of Mario 64, Power Stars give power to those who collect them, indicating that just having them gives you power alone (for those who are hard-pressed on English translations, this is consistent with the original Japanese text). There are more examples such as Mario Galaxy, where Bowser Jr. HEAVILY implies that the bosses who are refought are juiced up by The Grand Stars (which Power Stars should be similar to) and that they used them to obtain the form they take now. Besides, how else would Mario beat Bowser in Super Mario 64 who was also amped by the Power Stars and claimed that Mario's star power was useless against him in the final battle?
Suffice it to say, those who have Power Stars SHOULD be empowered by them. We have many games across many different eras of Mario that consistently point to the notion that Power Stars are a source of power to those who collect them and bosses who use them can even obtain a different form and become stronger than the first time they were fought.
Argument #3: "Bowser Jr. is scared of an explosion"
Do you mean the same machine that contained The Grand Star and was empowered by it? Of course, he'd be scared of that because it's powered by one of the most powerful items in the verse and also we see it doesn't even harm him significantly as opposed to pushing him out. He blatantly tanked the explosion but was simply ejected due to the force of it.
Argument #4: "The Reactor would only affect a galaxy; it didn't utilize the Grand Star's full power"
This misconception comes from the fact that the game itself says that Bowser will create his galaxy and he simply intends to spread his empire... This ignores the context, as Bowser's empire had ALREADY expanded and we have evidence of this, such as Bowser's minions being in another Trial Galaxy, a place that exists at the ends of the universe. To say he was only affecting a galaxy is ridiculous because Bowser states he wants his universe in one translation.
Let's also address that Bowser was using so much of the Grand Star's power that the Lumas were genuinely scared it would kill it. This implies that Bowser was using a huge sum of its power, enough to where if nothing was done, Bowser would've exhausted its power and ultimately drained it entirely of its energy.
Conclusions
As I said before, I feel like a lot wasn't discussed in the thread for the proposed changes to the whole cast of Super Mario Bros. I've done my best at what I could do to address some of the common arguments that were still yet to be disputed for the entire franchise, so I hope I cleared the air on all of it in this CRT.Special thanks and credit to: @ZespeonGalaxy @StretchSebe @Foxthefox1000
Agree:
Disagree (please read the arguments first and then state your reasoning; no anti-feats):
Neutral:
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