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STRONGEST VERSES IN FICTION?

Abu2411 said:
There is no hard cap to power
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Mathiverse is an abstract consept that contains all possible and impossible mathimatical constructs, by definition it idea of going above it would hypothically exist in itself. Trying to supass Mathiverse is basically impossible since it already has done it itself.
 
Tots_Real said:
Mathiverse is an abstract consept that contains all possible and impossible mathimatical constructs, by definition it idea of going above it would hypothically exist in itself. Trying to supass Mathiverse is basically impossible since it already has done it itself.
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Just buy the rights to whatever franchise mathiverse comes from, make a character that's more powerful than it by saying it's more powerful than it, and done. Easy
 
or just re-create something similar to mathiverse and make a character than uncountably infinitely transcends all of what it encompasses.
 
Tots_Real said:
Mathiverse is an abstract consept that contains all possible and impossible mathimatical constructs, by definition it idea of going above it would hypothically exist in itself. Trying to supass Mathiverse is basically impossible since it already has done it itself.
Click to expand...
Er...I haven't read Flatterland, but Yog-Sothoth is explicitly stated as being beyond mathematics. Yog-Sothoth's existence creates the concept of math. Yog-Sothoth isn't definable by math because math has no meaning without Yog-Sothoth. He's also explicitly described as omnipotent, which might make him kind of ineligible, Idk.

That said, Flatterland sounds ridiculous and better explained (conceptually) than the Mythos. I tend to find that most of the strongest verses and characters are a bit vague, which can make them frustrating to compare to others, but also difficult to establish any kind of boundaries or limits that well-explained verses/characters inherently establish for themselves. It's like the D&D rule that you can't kill it if it doesn't have stats.
 
LordNidhoggr said:
Er...I haven't read Flatterland, but Yog-Sothoth is explicitly stated as being beyond mathematics. Yog-Sothoth's existence creates the concept of math. Yog-Sothoth isn't definable by math because math has no meaning without Yog-Sothoth. He's also explicitly described as omnipotent, which might make him kind of ineligible, Idk.

That said, Flatterland sounds ridiculous and better explained (conceptually) than the Mythos. I tend to find that most of the strongest verses and characters are a bit vague, which can make them frustrating to compare to others, but also difficult to establish any kind of boundaries or limits that well-explained verses/characters inherently establish for themselves. It's like the D&D rule that you can't kill it if it doesn't have stats.
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The problem is that mathi verse and pretty much any hard math verse explain maths so much better than chutully mythos oh also you really cant be beyond maths
 
Not in fiction no. But in reality... We cannot even imagine the 4th dimension so who are we to judge wether or not something can go beyond math
 
Livinmeme said:
The problem is that mathi verse and pretty much any hard math verse explain maths so much better than chutully mythos oh also you really cant be beyond maths
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Oh, I'm not arguing that ideas like the Mathiverse aren't better, or at least more thoroughly and elegantly explained than verses like The Cthulhu Mythos. That doesn't mean they more "powerful" though.

And you absolutely can go beyond maths. Math describes the universe because math is definite, adheres to certain rules, and is consistent. With a being like Yog-Sothoth, who controls and defines concepts purely as facets/consequences of itself, math cannot apply because it can't follow rules or have consistent behavior. At a whim, or even an unconscious impulse, Yog-Sothoth can make 1+1=3, or 30, or 1, or all three. He can make it so that math is relative so that it depends on another facet of existence, like consciousness or energy particle-wave ratios, of even a language of communication like English. Yog could make math acausal, creating a situation where you don't have consistent number sequences or repeatable equations because the next number in the sequence or the result of the equation can be completely unrelated to the previous number or the characteristics of the equation.

Yog-Sothoth is beyond math because he's more "real" than math is. Math is a consequence of Yog-Sothoth, not a separate, independent function of the universe/existence.
 
I am pretty sure than if you tracend math then your power cant be defined plus the math of mathiverse has show to be hard math something than Chutullu mythos cant tracend because he is only 2 tracends above tier 0 while math by definition is the strongest tier 0 you can get
 
Arceus0x said:
Not in fiction no. But in reality... We cannot even imagine the 4th dimension so who are we to judge wether or not something can go beyond math
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The problem that mathiverse maths is far far far far more impresive than anything CM has shown (or atleast the originals story)
 
deonment said:
I would think maybe 1=0 is the one thing possibly beyond mathiverse cause it quite literally breaks math the **** open and could also break our tiering system in half too
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Reinhardt Cardinal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfoldable Cardinal > Indescribable Cardinal >> Inaccessible Cardinal
 
Livinmeme said:
I am pretty sure than if you tracend math then your power cant be defined plus the math of mathiverse has show to be hard math something than Chutullu mythos cant tracend because he is only 2 tracends above tier 0 while math by definition is the strongest tier 0 you can get
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Ok, this is honestly a bit of a challenge for me to parse out your main points. You're saying that math is the strongest Tier 0, right? One: how is math, which at its core is a way to analyze things and understand them at various levels, often describing events, phenomena, and patterns, a Tier 0? Are you talking about an anthropomorphic representation of math, like a character in Flatterland? Or is the Mathiverse itself a Tier 0 setting with Tier 0 characters? I don't see how math is somehow the definite strongest Tier 0, either taking that statement on its own or in the context of comparing it to the Cthulhu Mythos. And, again, I'm sure the actual explanations for the Mathiverse are much more detailed and impressive than the Cthulhu Mythos, but that doesn't make them stronger. Master Chief has way more technical explanations and real-world considerations than, say, Samus Aran, but Samus is still more powerful.

The thing is when you talk about the Cthulhu Mythos you are ultimately talking about beings that "assign," for lack of a better word, meaning to concepts, thus allowing those concepts to exist. Math is a concept. Thought is a concept. Power is a concept. The Mythos deities literally create the conceptual, archetypal foundation upon which concepts form based on the Gods' nature, not due to conscious thought or action, they just cause concepts to happen as a natural process of their existence. Yog-Sothoth could take the very concept of mathematics and erase it, creating a multiverse with no math and no mathematical relations. I couldn't even begin to describe what the result would look like, being so utterly alien to the workings of the universe as we understand them, but he can do that.

Also, how do you transcend 0, let alone do it twice and have that be less impressive than...whatever you're talking about with maths being unimpeachably the strongest tier 0. I'm not looking to pick a fight, so I hope that I'm not coming across as hostile. I won't reply with this argument again, at this point I'm more interested in your explanations so I can understand that verse better.
 
The problem is that without math you really cant be definied in power just being "beyond maths" doesnt make you stronger than mathiverse also because that is a logical paradox and literally breaks the power system so if CM is beyond maths then his power cant be definied we use maths to measure the power of characters and without maths then it cant be definied when i was refering to "more impressive feats" i was refering than mathiverse by definition is so much stronger than the entire CM verse just because you are beyond all concepts doesnt make you tracend maths because you cant tracend math and if you say that CM is beyond maths and is true then it should get a CRT TBH

yeah i am tired so if you wana continue the discussion i will continue tomorrow
 
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
Is reinhardt cardinal bigger then mahlo cardinal?
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Hilariously bigger- Mahlo Cardinals (all types) are smaller than Indescribable Cardinals.
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
Da **** is 1-0
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That's actually [1=0], but the dash covers up the top bar and makes it look like 1-0- anywho it's related to the Reinhardt Cardinal and why it can't really be a thing.

[Under the Question- Is there a final inaccessible cardinal?- here]
There is no largest cardinal, this is just Cantor. As to the large cardinal axioms, that's a whole other matter.

The "0 = 1" axiom is sort of a joke (though it's not wrong). The large cardinal axioms are stronger and stronger in consistency strength meaning they prove more and more. Taking "0 = 1" as an axiom is then the strongest thing you can assume since you can then prove everything.

There might be a "largest large cardinal axiom", but we don't know that at this point. There have been things proposed that are "too strong", such as the existence of a Reinhardt cardinal (which is equivalent to "0 = 1").

Best progress in this direction at the moment is Woodin's work on (1) Ultimate L and (2) the Omega Conjecture. The large cardinal program is far from complete though, so we really don't know what happens. The hope is that something like Ultimate L will "resolve the siutation" by being the definitive statement about large cardinals, but this is tricky to even clearly define.

Edit: I should add that there is certainly an infinite hierarchy of "large cardinal axioms", this is pretty easy to show since you can have axioms asserting the existence of arbitrary numbers of inaccessibles and the like. The large cardinal axioms that we focus on are really families of axioms for the most part. So it's not like there's a finite number of LC axioms and that's that, but it is possible (potentially) that something like Ultimate L can subsume all of them into a "complete description of the cumulative hierarchy".
Click to expand...
There have been things proposed that are "too strong", such as the existence of a Reinhardt cardinal (which is equivalent to "0 = 1").
Click to expand...
Note: this equivalence is only true with the axiom of choice in place; without it, it has not yet been determined whether Reinhardt (or even Berkeley) cardinals are inconsistent.
Click to expand...
(Berkeley Cardinals are even bigger than Reinhardt Cardinals)
 
ElajRuengies said:
Hilariously bigger- Mahlo Cardinals (all types) are smaller than Indescribable Cardinals.

That's actually [1=0], but the dash covers up the top bar and makes it look like 1-0- anywho it's related to the Reinhardt Cardinal and why it can't really be a thing.

[Under the Question- Is there a final inaccessible cardinal?- here]


(Berkeley Cardinals are even bigger than Reinhardt Cardinals)
Click to expand...
imagine a verse with berkeley cardinal number of layers lol. It would be stomping the whole damn wikia. Heck it belongs to the joke battles wikia perhaps.
 
I don't mean it in the Reinhardt cardinal sense, I mean it in the manner of, a number so big mathematics as a whole begins to break down and ceases function, the point at which the value and manner of things matters no longer because everything is just the same as everything else where even zero is equal to even the strongest cardinals and nothing and everything are the same, the point at which logic breaks down and the very fundamentals of what we understand are upheaved, aka literally so strong it cannot be tiered at all on wiki
 
deonment said:
I don't mean it in the Reinhardt cardinal sense, I mean it in the manner of, a number so big mathematics as a whole begins to break down and ceases function, the point at which the value and manner of things matters no longer because everything is just the same as everything else where even zero is equal to even the strongest cardinals and nothing and everything are the same, the point at which logic breaks down and the very fundamentals of what we understand are upheaved, aka literally so strong it cannot be tiered at all on wiki
Click to expand...
isn't that what being beyond maths really is?
 
deonment said:
I don't mean it in the Reinhardt cardinal sense, I mean it in the manner of, a number so big mathematics as a whole begins to break down and ceases function, the point at which the value and manner of things matters no longer because everything is just the same as everything else where even zero is equal to even the strongest cardinals and nothing and everything are the same, the point at which logic breaks down and the very fundamentals of what we understand are upheaved, aka literally so strong it cannot be tiered at all on wiki
Click to expand...
Is this how you surpass the Mathiverse?
 
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