Strongest Non-Smurf Low 2-C (Discussion)

[StrymULTRA]

She doesn't have good hax though :v

She definitely should have some resistances at absolute least, given Zun said that none can beat her. For example if Eirin's drug granted to the cast resistance to the purification hax, I don't see why Hecatia shouldn't resist that on her own for example.

 

[Dragonite007]

How will he affect her with Causality Manipulation when she can attack him before the skill even starts working?

Idk, maybe ask @Phsccarvalho . Because this dude one who recommend Dracula to Low 2-C.

Get over here

 

[Dragonite007]

For now I'll leave Dracula in the tenth spot

 

[azontr]

Dracula should definitely be a lot higher than 10th.

 

[Dragonite007]

Dracula should definitely be a lot higher than 10th.

We are waiting @Phsccarvalho to him give his opinion

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

She definitely should have some resistances at absolute least, given Zun said that none can beat her. For example if Eirin's drug granted to the cast resistance to the purification hax, I don't see why Hecatia shouldn't resist that on her own for example.

I'll contest this bullshit later lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll contest this bullshit later lol

Dang bro calm down.

 

[YungManzi]

Mori does not have limited stamina in this form, so no, there is no draining his power or overwhelming him via brute force to tire him out. That would be applying an unnecessary assumption on how his abilities function which isn't stated to or alluded to on his profile.

To make it so that the whole universe never existed you would HAVE to get rid of Mori, who passively maintains the universe just by existing in Nirvana. So no, that is also not an option, unless she has a method of permanently killing Mori, which she does not have.

For Medea to do this she'd need some way to actually break the Karmic Cycle, which, I haven't seen feats that she specifically can do so. It's not just making things repeat forever its making what Mori wants to repeat, repeat forever. So Medea going to the past or the future or whatever to change events would only fall into the loop that's been placed on her, as it effects her no matter what point in time she goes to to change events.

Ah, yes. He can do this against multiple immeasurables all at once. Numerous of which aren’t even in the same universe as him and can snipe from a Multiverse+ away.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Mori does not have limited stamina in this form, so no, there is no draining his power or overwhelming him via brute force to tire him out. That would be applying an unnecessary assumption on how his abilities function which isn't stated to or alluded to on his profile.

His stamina isn't the issue. Her draining the universe of power until she is simply vastly stronger than him is. Her power will continuously increase as this goes on until she just stomps via stats alone. Might take a while, but the fight would go on for all eternity until someone wins, and then, retroactively, they immediately win due to time stuff.

To make it so that the whole universe never existed you would HAVE to get rid of Mori, who passively maintains the universe just by existing in Nirvana. So no, that is also not an option, unless she has a method of permanently killing Mori, which she does not have.

Infinity Destroyer does kinda permanently make something not exist. Permanently, because it affects all future. I don't really see him coming back from soul erasure in general?

Anyway, the way infinity destroyer works, every time Mori recreates the universe (however he does that when he gets erased at the same time) it would automatically instantly get deleted again.

For Medea to do this she'd need some way to actually break the Karmic Cycle, which, I haven't seen feats that she specifically can do so. It's not just making things repeat forever its making what Mori wants to repeat, repeat forever. So Medea going to the past or the future or whatever to change events would only fall into the loop that's been placed on her, as it effects her no matter what point in time she goes to to change events.

That's assuming her attacks enter the range of the Karmic Cycle.

Also, her attacks go to every moment in time simultaneously. There would be nothing to loop except erasure. Because nothing except erasure would ever happen at any point in time. Can Mori loop something that has never happened to begin with, is not currently happening and will never happen either?

Furthermore, if Mori only loops what he wants, then this requires a mental action i.e. it's not passive. That's not a decision he can make before a character with immeasurable reactions attacks him.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Giygas can be a contender.

AE1 + HDE + Passive 4D Mind/Void hax + Can inflict status effects like Power null, Transmutation, Sleep hax, Paralysis, Perception or even instant KO.

 

[azontr]

Ah, yes. He can do this against multiple immeasurables all at once. Numerous of which aren’t even in the same universe as him and can snipe from a Multiverse+ away.

Manzi, if you're not actually going to address my points then stop responding. You're not contributing to the debate with this and it's annoying as you've yet to present a proper debunk to any of my points.

His stamina isn't the issue. Her draining the universe of power until she is simply vastly stronger than him is. Her power will continuously increase as this goes on until she just stomps via stats alone. Might take a while, but the fight would go on for all eternity until someone wins, and then, retroactively, they immediately win due to time stuff.

Her draining the universe of power would entail her draining Mori Dan of power, which isn't going to happen because Mori has like a quadrillion versions of power null (and power mimicry so he can just copy this).

That's assuming her attacks enter the range of the Karmic Cycle.

Also, her attacks go to every moment in time simultaneously. There would be nothing to loop except erasure. Because nothing except erasure would ever happen at any point in time. Can Mori loop something that has never happened to begin with, is not currently happening and will never happen either?

Furthermore, if Mori only loops what he wants, then this requires a mental action i.e. it's not passive. That's not a decision he can make before a character with immeasurable reactions attacks him.

1. To attack him she has to enter within the range of his cycle.

2. And Mori's Cycles, as I've said like 50 thousand ******* times already, also effect all of time. To attack him within any point of time is simply stepping into the range of his Karma, which extends to the past, the present, and the future, as every instance of time can be manipulated by Mori. The effects of his Karma, as you put it, "never happened to begin with, are currently happening, and will never happen".

3. It's a thought-based action but within Nirvana the effects of his Karma are always active, as he passively maintains reality with his existence. For the ability to be completely thought-based, he'd need to be using an avatar to interact with the lower world, but within Nirvana that influence isn't happening. So it's thought-based, yes, but also passive at the same time. Imagine Yhwach's Almighty, he has to activate it but once he does it's passive.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

First, shouldn't Junko and Hecatia be higher on the list? They have transduality, so I saw someone say they should go up to the point where characters start interacting with them.

I'm not very good at analyzing fights, so I'll give my opinion.

9. Characters from Touhou (Junko and Hecatia)

From what I've seen of Touhou and Castlevania battles, they don't hax 4D or hax 4D resistance. As well as not having layered immortality/regeneration. So without transduality, I think they kind of die from the Castle's liabilities while Dracula is sitting on the throne.

8. Mori Dan

I think passives just screw him while Dracula is sitting on the throne.

7. Characters from Saint Seiya (Athena, Poseidon, and Eris)

I also don't see how they resist Castle passives, particularly things like Powernull 4D and Plot Manipulation.

6. Medea Pideth Machina (Web Novel)

This one I don't know exactly, Dracula has denial of immortality type 9 but I don't know if it affects her. She has this thing of immeasurable speed of attack and reaction, in addition to this thing of clones across the Multiverse. I just know that it doesn't resist Dracula's passives, mainly powernull 4D and Plot Manipulation.

I think her supporters have to look into this too.
----------------------------
From there come characters that either have a lot of skills or I don't know anything about them, or both (and there's a Chinese character there, and I'm scared of him). So maybe it should be better to do vs threads.

 

[Arkenis]

This one I don't know exactly, Dracula has denial of immortality type 9 but I don't know if it affects her. She has this thing of immeasurable speed of attack and reaction, in addition to this thing of clones across the Multiverse. I just know that it doesn't resist Dracula's passives, mainly powernull 4D and Plot Manipulation.

what is her immo 9?

 

[azontr]

As I said, Dracula stomps most of the list passively.

 

[StrymULTRA]

First, shouldn't Junko and Hecatia be higher on the list? They have transduality, so I saw someone say they should go up to the point where characters start interacting with them

Yeah is very weird. I can't speak for Destiny or DnD given they have a fuckton of things which are not on profiles, but none of the other characters can interact with Transduality2/NEP 2

 

[YungManzi]

Manzi, if you're not actually going to address my points then stop responding. You're not contributing to the debate with this and it's annoying as you've yet to present a proper debunk to any of my points.

I’m currently at work on Mobil so unfortunately I can’t respond to every single little point you make individually, so I commented on something that addresses all of your points simultaneously

 

[azontr]

I’m currently at work on Mobil so unfortunately I can’t respond to every single little point you make individually, so I commented on something that addresses all of your points simultaneously

I'd prefer you be focusing on your job than something as insignificant as this, but, whatever floats your boat ig?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

what is her immo 9?

I think she has a wider reach, again, apart from what I've seen in this chat and on her profile, I don't know anything about her, so anyone who knows her should give their opinion too.

 

[YungManzi]

I'd prefer you be focusing on your job than something as insignificant as this, but, whatever floats your boat ig?

Nah it’s fine, I’m on break and nothing else is happenin here anyway, literally just sitting here. Nothing serious.

Anyway, since you didn’t actually address my point, I’ll restate it in a more clear manner;

Mori can act at every point in time throughout the timeline.

Medea can act at every point in the timeline multiple times over.

^That is my point about him being overwhelmed. If you think that baseline temporal omnipresence allows you to interact with and counter multiple immeasurables at once, then we just have a difference of opinion on how the two of these things are supposed to interact with each other.

 

[azontr]

Anyway, since you didn’t actually address my point, I’ll restate it in a more clear manner;

Mori can act at every point in time throughout the timeline.

Medea can act at every point in the timeline multiple times over.

^That is my point about him being overwhelmed. If you think temporal omnipresence allows you to interact and counter multiple immeasurables at once, then we just have a difference of opinion on how the these two things are supposed to interact with each other.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this because I'm remaining adamant on my stance.

 

[azontr]

Would a worthy compromise for both sides be for Mori and Medea to share the spot? As I believe we're going in circles, now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

By the way, Touhou characters can be removed from the list since I'll be upgrading them to just 2-C later today.

 

[StrymULTRA]

By the way, Touhou characters can be removed from the list since I'll be upgrading them to just 2-C later today.

You still did not tell me about why Hecatia does not apply.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You still did not tell me about why Hecatia does not apply.

Because being stronger than someone doesn't mean you can resist their durability negating hax (otherwise Junko would be the undisputed #1 spot in 2-C just from Touhou's 2-C scaling alone), and the line of thought of "the protagonists of LoLK had a special medicine that let them resist purification so Hecatia should resist it naturally" is a massive leap in logic.

Also she doesn't even have the type 1 concept EE that got Junko there to begin with.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Because being stronger than someone doesn't mean you can resist their durability negating hax (otherwise Junko would be the undisputed #1 spot in 2-C just from Touhou's 2-C scaling alone), and the line of thought of "the protagonists of LoLK had a special medicine that let them resist purification so Hecatia should resist it naturally" is a massive leap in logic.

The argument comes from the Chrono playable members resisting most of Lavos' hax due to the latter choosing to use a time paradox instead to avoid a fight against them despite having a massive number of hax compared to them, even when it had cosmic awareness and precognition.

I thought to apply the same to Hecatia as she's said to be completely past the level of everyone else from ZUN, so you can probably make an argument for her resisting all the OP hax, otherwise the "completely past the level" statement is quite meh.

Though is only my general thoughts.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The argument comes from the Chrono playable members resisting most of Lavos' hax due to the latter choosing to use a time paradox instead to avoid a fight against them despite having a massive number of hax compared to them, even when it had cosmic awareness and precognition.

I thought to apply the same to Hecatia as she's said to be completely past the level of everyone else from ZUN, so you can probably make an argument for her resisting all the OP hax, otherwise the "completely past the level" statement is quite meh.

Though is only my general thoughts.

Is that really the reason they have those resistances?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is that really the reason they have those resistances?

Yeah. I mean, they're fighting against a hax machine which has basically the powers of every living/non living thing in the verse, yet despite being able to see all the timelines and possibilities (verse is based on MWI if you wonder) he still said "yeah no I ain't doing that", implying that even all that hax is useless kek.

 

[Dragonite007]

Giygas can be a contender.

AE1 + HDE + Passive 4D Mind/Void hax + Can inflict status effects like Power null, Transmutation, Sleep hax, Paralysis, Perception or even instant KO.

Added

 

[Phsccarvalho]

First, shouldn't Junko and Hecatia be higher on the list? They have transduality, so I saw someone say they should go up to the point where characters start interacting with them.

I'm not very good at analyzing fights, so I'll give my opinion.

9. Characters from Touhou (Junko and Hecatia)
From what I've seen of Touhou and Castlevania battles, they don't hax 4D or hax 4D resistance. As well as not having layered immortality/regeneration. So without transduality, I think they kind of die from the Castle's liabilities while Dracula is sitting on the throne.

8. Mori Dan
I think passives just screw him while Dracula is sitting on the throne.

7. Characters from Saint Seiya (Athena, Poseidon, and Eris)
I also don't see how they resist Castle passives, particularly things like Powernull 4D and Plot Manipulation.

6. Medea Pideth Machina (Web Novel)
This one I don't know exactly, Dracula has denial of immortality type 9 but I don't know if it affects her. She has this thing of immeasurable speed of attack and reaction, in addition to this thing of clones across the Multiverse. I just know that it doesn't resist Dracula's passives, mainly powernull 4D and Plot Manipulation.

I think her supporters have to look into this too.
----------------------------
From there come characters that either have a lot of skills or I don't know anything about them, or both (and there's a Chinese character there, and I'm scared of him). So maybe it should be better to do vs threads.

Should I do a vs thread against any of these? And would the speed be equalized or not? (not that it matters too much as Dracula would be on his throne letting the Castle do its thing).

 

[Dragonite007]

Should I do a vs thread against any of these? And would the speed be equalized or not? (not that it matters too much as Dracula would be on his throne letting the Castle do its thing).

The standard is speed equal

 

[Hasty12345]

Are these in order because could have swore Mori beat Poseidon?

 

[Dragonite007]

Are these in order because could have swore Mori beat Poseidon?

Did he?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Did he?

As far as I know the match was put on hold, as Saint Seiya is going to have an update that will probably have smurf stuff.

 

[azontr]

Are these in order because could have swore Mori beat Poseidon?

It was put on hold because Saint Seiya profiles are outdated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It was put on hold because Saint Seiya profiles are outdated.

Then why are they on the list?

 

[azontr]

Then why are they on the list?

Idfk.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Idfk.

Then yeet.

 

[azontr]

Then yeet.

I do not have that power.

 

[Dragonite007]

I do not have that power.

But I have

 

[Dragonite007]

Giygas or Parca for the free spot?