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Strongest Character for Every Tier 28

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Warren Valion said:
What are you talking about? The "getting your ass kicked by The Presence" is The Mark doing its thing. It's not a different thing, where did you get that from?.
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Getting your ass kicked by the Presence for doing something which doesn't harm Cai is something entirely different from the mark.

The assumption you make is that Cain has some ability, except the one that doesn't let people harm him, which gets him out of incapacitation, because nobody super powerful did that.

The problem is that the reason they are not incapacitating him is nowhere said to be due to Cains power. It is far from unlikely that they don't do it because Cain's protector might also do things if Cain's mark doesn't trigger, should someone try that.

It's the difference between dealing with Cain without triggering the mark and outsmarting the Presence. Nobody outsmarts the Presence, so nobody can actually make use of way of dealing with cain without triggering the mark as long as the Presence is around. But if the Presence isn't allowed to interfere, like is the case in a battle, dealing with Cain without having to deal with the mark is absolutely possible.
 
Just a reminder that the fear of the presence has nothing to do with why Luci and his minions didn't **** with Cain. Most of The Presence's messengers are likely under his protection in some way, but Luci even directly stated that if anyother messenger had been sent then he would have been returned with his liver in their mouth (yes, that threat specifically), so the Mark is clearly something more than just being under his protection
 
So... If I handcuff Cain and tie him to a pole, would the Presence even care about something this minor?
 
That indicates that The Presence wouldn't squash him for killing any other messenger and that that doesn't apply to Cain.

So... that's the difference between Cain and any other messenger given that, due to Mark or not, the Presence would be willing to squash Lucifer for harming Cain.
 
My intent was not to say that he was not under the presence's protection. My intent was to say that this is different from just being on the presence's nice list. The Mark seems to be an almost contractual obligation for the Presence to return the damage done to Cain to those who do him harm
 
The assumption I make is if a smarter and stronger being can't think of a way to deal with Cain, then someone like Lucy shouldn't be either.

You're making the assumption that, because the story takes place in DC, The Presence will pop up to attack someone trying to **** with Cain without ******* with Cain's curse, and because that is outside interference that it wouldn't work in a vs battle.

The problem is that the reason they are not incapacitating him is nowhere said to be due to Cains power. It is far from unlikely that they don't do it because Cain's protector might also do things if Cain's mark doesn't trigger, should someone try that.

The thing is, this assumption is completely baseless and relies on headcanon. The Presence doesn't interfere with basically anything happening in the entirety of DC ever, he's his own person and does his own shit. He pops in sometimes and says some shit and ***** off do whatever he wants.

The Presence won't attack Cain's adversary unless Mark's curse is triggered, both in DC and out of it. And if Lucifer couldn't get around the curse, then neither is Lucy.


I need to ask, where are you getting this assumption from?
 
PaChi2 said:
So... If I handcuff Cain and tie him to a pole, would the Presence even care about something this minor?
Click to expand...
In this panel.

Lucifer says, "Loose his binds and leave us".

Which implies someone has bound his hands or something earlier in that scene, so I'd assume that, as long as Cain isn't fighting against the people binding his hands, then yeah, The Presence doesn't care.

But if Cain were to struggle, and harm were to come to him, then The Presence would reflect that harm and attack his opponent.
 
That's in-verse politics not covered by the Mark. The Presence is just petty. Judge Gallows hit Cain once, got hit back by the 7x AR, and then the Presence manipulated events to make him die weirdly later. Surely, you can see that Presence did that afterwards via his own intention rather than being forced to do so by the Mark.

While I don't have much knowledge about Vertigo, The Presence and DotE's protection from non-lethal stuff doesn't seem passive and you'll need to bring scans of him reflecting such things to convince me.
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
That's in-verse politics not covered by the Mark. The Presence is just petty. Judge Gallows hit Cain once, got hit back by the 7x AR, and then the Presence manipulated events to make him die weirdly later. Surely, you can see that Presence did that afterwards via his own intention rather than being forced to do so by the Mark.
While I don't have much knowledge about Vertigo, The Presence and DotE's protection from non-lethal stuff doesn't seem passive and you'll need to bring scans of him reflecting such things to convince me.
Click to expand...
No, you're wrong. The "seven weird disasters" are also an effect of The Mark, it's literally on his profile.

  • The Mark of Cain: If anyone harms Cain, the damage comes back to them sevenfold. It also brings seven weird disasters to anyone who harms Cai, as shown the time when Judge Gallows condemned Cain, Abel, and Matthew to death because they went against his judgment. Judge Gallows struck a hit on Cain but instantly regretted it as he realized that Cain can't be harmed by anyone because of his Mark. He was swiftly killed by The Presence through different weird accidents.
The Presence is the one who gave Cain the mark, the is the one who reflects attacks, and the one who causes the disasters, but that's because the Mark's curse was activated.

Iapitus The Impaler put it well, The Presence is basically contractually obligated to reflect the attack and cause the disasters. It's not by his own petty desires, it just him following through with the curse he placed on the guy.


And it's just "protection from harm" that works on a 1-A level. Why would there be a passive and/or active difference in physical and non-physical attacks?

As I have said, I believe typically non-lethal abilities like mind manipulation counts as "harm" in the case of the curse, but I am not 100% sure as I am not that knowledgeable on Vertigo comics myself.

And as I said before, if you want more decisive answers with probable scans and such, you should either make a Q&A thread or just personally contact someone knowledgable on Vertigo comics - like Sandman31.
 
Just in case Cain actually get removed from the spot

Who are the other competitors to the spot (other than Void Shiki) ?
 
Because it's being discussed weather or not the Presence causing the death of those that hurt him is outside help

Also it doesn't seem to be anything preventing an opponent from just incapacitate him to fight back
 
In this panel.

Lucifer says, "Loose his binds and leave us".

Which implies someone has bound his hands or something earlier in that scene, so I'd assume that, as long as Cain isn't fighting against the people binding his hands, then yeah, The Presence doesn't care.

But if Cain were to struggle, and harm were to come to him, then The Presence would reflect that harm and attack his opponent.

What opponent, the handcuffs? Wot.
 
The person forcing Cain into the handcuffs, duh.

But in that case Cain is still handcuffed.
 
PaChi2 said:
But in that case Cain is still handcuffed.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure if a person was trying to physically force Cain into the handcuffs by grabbing his hands or arms or whatever would have those forces multiplied and reflected on to them, which would likely severely damage, if not break, that persons arms or hands or whatever.

If he resists, then The Mark's curse would be activated.

If Cain were to willingly put up his hands to be handcuffed, then yeah, the Mark wouldn't activate.

But why would he do that, especially in a fight?
 
I'm pretty sure if a person was trying to physically force Cain into the handcuffs by grabbing his hands or arms or whatever would have those forces multiplied and reflected on to them, which would likely severely damage, if not break, that persons arms or hands or whatever.

If he resists, then The Mark's curse would be activated.

If Cain were to willingly put up his hands to be handcuffed, then yeah, the Mark wouldn't activate.

But why would he do that, especially in a fight?

This is fiction.

People can teleport Handcuffs into Cain's wrists. Use Tk to put them. Etc.
 
>Teleporting handcuffs on to someone else.

Ok, that sounds hilarious.

But I was talking about a realistic scenario.


Also, so what? You put handcuffs on the guy, how does that help win a fight? And what stops him from breaking them?
 
Warren Valion said:
IIRC, his loses were hard counters, and that generally, he would be the strongest in his tier.
Click to expand...
Mega Alakazam outmatched him and incon'd accelerator, but he's gonna be downgraded soo
 
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