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Strongest Character for Every Tier 28

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DontTalkDT said:
Your examples are essentially why I said, in general it's more complicated. For this case it doesn't change things, though.

Summoning means to, by your own power, transport a being to you which does your bidding. In other words you influence the outside, not the outside influences your battle on its own accord.

Something like Goku using his Zeno button has for example not be acknowledged as a legitimate way for goku to win, because Zeno is in no way or form obligated to actually do what goku wants. That has been debated before to be considered outside influence.


If a person revives another by actively doing so, as opposed on it being a passive effect, that is outside influence as well. E.g. goku's friends reviving him via dragonballs would not be acknowledged as something that can happen in a battle. If it's a passive effects it falls under blessings/curses which are considered a characters own arsenal.

Essentially see Standard Battle Assumptions, outside influence.
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You know how some characters have powers that only work on Death? The Mark is similar to that, in that when someone else hurts Cain, the Presence is basically summoned to reflect the attack back towards the person who attacked Cain. It's not the outside that affects your battle, it's your opponent in the battle calls the wrath of the outside to attack them.

That's because Zeno isn't one to do a specific action when summoned. The Presence is not like that, he will reflect the attack back upon his opponent x7 fold if Cain is hurt by another.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Warren Valion said:
Dude, you do know that Cain's Attack Reflection is the thing that kills people, right?
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Yeah but AR wouldn't reflect someone removing earth from existence and BFRing Cain.
The presence does that.
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Cain can travel to and from the Dreaming, so BFR is useless. And why would someone erasing the Earth matter?
 
But, to be fair, this is like what I was saying about Bernkastel.

To attack Bern is to attack Featherine herself, and unlike with the Zeno button, we know Featherine kills those who attack either her or Bern

(See Delta vs Featherine, mmm, is that a good fight)
 
Stop quoting huge walls of text. Just keep what you want to cite or simply remove everything if you're just replying.

There's other non-lethal stuff like persuation, mind manip etc. Heck, Composite Human might be able to talk Cain out of a fight using the best persuation methods of humanity.

Now you'll tell me that the Presence will smack people for even talking to Cain.
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
Stop quoting huge walls of text. Just keep what you want to cite or simply remove everything if you're just replying.
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Are you talking to me? Because what I quoted wasn't a "huge wall of text".

It was almost the same exact size of what DontTalkDT quoted.
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
There's other non-lethal stuff like persuasion, mind manip etc. Heck, Composite Human might be able to talk Cain out of a fight using the best persuasion methods of humanity.

Now you'll tell me that the Presence will smack people for even talking to Cain.
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I'm pretty sure someone invading Cain's mind to try and control him would get reflected as well, but you'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable on Vergito than me to give you a proper answer.

And no, I don't think the Presence will smack people for talking to Cain, but I don't see how someone talking to Cain is a win-con.

At most, I can see it being an inconclusive fight with both contestants BFRing themselves from the battlefield after their conversation is over. No one really wins such an encounter, it's not really even a fight at that point.
 
The sevenfold curse doesn't have any statement or clause about non-harmful stuff, and there isn't any scans of Cain reflecting those abilities yet, so its NLF to assume that he can.

Eh, I think CH can pull it off, since Cain seems like a reasonable person.
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
Persuation is an ability. CH persuading Cain to go away is a win for CH.
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Saying persuading another with words is an ability is like saying breathing is an ability.

Persuading someone to not fight you with words, is just that, not fighting someone due to a conversation you both had in were you both decided that fighting each other is pointless and you both walk off, with both contestants BFRing themselves from the fight, getting an inconclusive match.

How can you win a fight if you don't fight someone?


And why would anyone try and verbally persuade Cain? They wouldn't know about his curse, and most people who would try and pacify someone into not fighting would do it with an ability, which again, likely gets reflected - ask Sandman31 or anyone else more knowledgable in Vertigo than me for further details.
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
The sevenfold curse doesn't have any statement or clause about non-harmful stuff, and there isn't any scans of Cain reflecting those abilities yet, so its NLF to assume that he can.
Eh, I think CH can pull it off, since Cain seems like a reasonable person.
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I am 99% sure that if you can reflect 1-A shit, then you can reflect stuff like mind manipulation, but again, contact a more knowledgable member for a more accurate and decisive answer.
 
Sceptical about mind manipulation qualifying as harm, unless it is shown to be the case. With just "harm" I would assume physical harm.

In any case, I believe someone like Lucy could defeat him. She can get to know about his curse, cause she reads others mind (which is not harmful in any way) and otherwise could take her own attack reflected x7 either way.

With that knowledge it is a supergenius with potent supernatural abilities playing a round of "Contain the SCP". Though simple non-lethal sedation would do it, IMO.


In the end Cain is also "only" hard to kill. There are probably a lot of people in that tier which he can not kill, at best getting an eternal stalemate.


Either way... anyone an opinion on Ark for the strongest 10-C? Should I do a match against Cueball?
 
@DontTalk He Incons most and depending on how you look at it Mind Hax could be considered "harming" his Mind.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Sceptical about mind manipulation qualifying as harm, unless it is shown to be the case. With just "harm" I would assume physical harm.
In any case, I believe someone like Lucy could defeat him. She can get to know about his curse, cause she reads others mind (which is not harmful in any way) and otherwise could take her own attack reflected x7 either way.

With that knowledge it is a supergenius with potent supernatural abilities playing a round of "Contain the SCP". Though simple non-lethal sedation would do it, IMO.
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All fights with Cain would be either inconclusive or wins because of his curse and how others who respond with it.

And I consider someone invading the privacy of my mind to be harm, but again, ask someone more knowledgable about Vertigo, like Sandman31.

Also, I highly doubt if someone like Lucifer Morningstar couldn't think or find a way around beating Cain, then neither could someone far dumber and infinitely weaker like Lucy.

And I'm pretty sure Lucifer could take his own attacks seven-fold, as IIRC, he was once depowered and then had all of his 1-A power thrown in his face from a plot by The Basanos, and even though he was near death, he still survived. Which makes being afraid of Cain all the more telling on how likely surviving the Mark's Curse is.

So again, I'm skeptical about Lucy being able to defeat Cain.

And this doesn't even mention the weird disasters that fall upon those who attack Cain.
 
Ark is actually stronger than Naofumi canonically (Well, post Medea fight Naofumi might be stronger...but we don't know about that.)
 
Warren Valion said:
Also, I highly doubt if someone like Lucifer Morningstar couldn't think or find a way around beating Cain, then neither could someone far dumber and infinitely weaker like Lucy.
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That argument is moot. Even if Lucifer could think of a way around, he could still not do anything. In universe trying to be clever would still just get his ass kicked by the Prensence. Cain is protected by god politics in his verse.

It is because the Presence doing that is outside influence that in battles Cain can be defeated rather easily.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Warren Valion said:
Also, I highly doubt if someone like Lucifer Morningstar couldn't think or find a way around beating Cain, then neither could someone far dumber and infinitely weaker like Lucy.
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That argument is moot. Even if Lucifer could think of a way around, he could still not do anything. In universe trying to be clever would still just get his ass kicked by the Prensence. Cain is protected by god politics in his verse.
It is because the Presence doing that is outside influence that in battles Cain can be defeated rather easily.
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"Rather easily" Is pushing it, Mind Hax might work and you need some pretty good non-lethal moves to beat Cain.

Also to mess with Cain youd need to be able to effect a Dream.
 
Rather easily for what should be the strongest 9-B.

I mean, the SCP Foundation could probably do it... without using SCP's.

Edit: But if Cain constantly hides in a dream without approaching or attacking that would mean loosing by BFR for him.... self-BFR.
 
That's the problem i've always had with Cain and his "GG reflect" even though there are no sufficent arguments, people use "Reflects 1-A so it reflects anything" as gospel.

I mean in this fight people were literally arguing Cain cannot be convinced to go home because The Presence will just stomp his opponent on the spot.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Rather easily for what should be the strongest 9-B.
I mean, the SCP Foundation could probably do it... without using SCP's.

Edit: But if Cain constantly hides in a dream without approaching or attacking that would mean loosing by BFR for him.... self-BFR.
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No hes a living dream, so in order to effect him you have to effect a dream.
 
DontTalkDT said:
That argument is moot. Even if Lucifer could think of a way around, he could still not do anything. In universe trying to be clever would still just get his ass kicked by the Prensence. Cain is protected by god politics in his verse.

It is because the Presence doing that is outside influence that in battles Cain can be defeated rather easily.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? The "getting your ass kicked by The Presence" is The Mark doing its thing. It's not a different thing, where did you get that from?.

Lucifer directly stated that cannot be harmed because of his Mark. And how he is under the protection of "one far greater than The Lord of Dreams".

There is no reason to believe that he could be outsmarted from someone not from DC, if he couldn't be outsmarted by someone from DC. Especially when said person is, as I said before, dumber and weaker than someone like Lucifer.
 
Pachi you have a problem and we're all here to support you through it.

I will be making my leave soon, so Im trying to have as much fun as I can.
 
Okay, that's not a thing, attacking a Dream doesn't mean you alert Dream of the Endless.

And while Cain is a resident of the Dream, I don't believe you need Dream Manipulation to hurt him in anyway.

As Abel is able to be harmed in many human ways, and Cain should be no different, the only reason why we haven't seen Cain be hurt is because of the Seven-Fold Decloration
 
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