Stricter References Standards

[Agnaa]

In this thread from August last year, it was announced that, over time, requirements for references on profiles would be enforced with more strictness.

Why not start now?

Of the 13 new character pages since June 26th started, according to the wiki's timer, 9 of those pages included references. This is something that people have been capable of doing, its been an option for a year, but I reckon it's about time to get serious with it, by requiring references for new pages.

Given that the majority seem to be following it, I think it is realistic to implement such a rule.

 

[Confluctor]

I agree. All my pages have references, and I know, it can be a pain in the rear side, especially with the shitty system of Fandom, but at the end, it's worth it.

 

[The_Impress]

I suggested this three times including this one, so yeah I agree.

 

[Abstractions]

It's been some time to ease people into it so I'm fine with us deciding to be more strict by forcing it's implementation with a rule.

 

[Arkenis]

Eh, is the reference extremely required when there's already scans linked already? A lot of people don't put reference due to the hassle it is for big pages sometimes

 

[Agnaa]

Eh, is the reference extremely required when there's already scans linked already? A lot of people don't put reference due to the hassle it is for big pages sometimes

Yeah, it helps people find the context for the linked scans. And if there's ever an issue which causes the linked scans to be lost, it helps people find them again.

 

[Confluctor]

Eh, is the reference extremely required when there's already scans linked already? A lot of people don't put reference due to the hassle it is for big pages sometimes

Yeah. I have made pages where I had to insert like 120 different refs, and then ofc, reuse some of them dozen times or so. It is annoying and takes too much time, but at the end? It's worth it. I can go back and look at specific feats, and if I think it's lacking context, I know where it comes from, add new context or scan to it. Makes it so much easier.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah. I have made pages where I had to insert like 120 different refs, and then ofc, reuse some of them dozen times or so. It is annoying and takes too much time, but at the end? It's worth it. I can go back and look at specific feats, and if I think it's lacking context, I know where it comes from, add new context or scan to it. Makes it so much easier.

I mean you could do that by just remembering the chapter too, a lot of verses have wikis where the chapter for something is very findable so it may seem like it helps but it also is just tedious for some characters especially when we've already put the scan to go. with the hax or feat.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean you could do that by just remembering the chapter to

"Just have impeccable memory"

a lot of verses have wikis where the chapter for something is very findable

"Rely on other wikis to do your job for you, if they don't, weep"

but it also is just tedious for some characters especially when we've already put the scan to go. with the hax or feat

"Work bad"

Mate honestly these are some really poor points.

 

[Confluctor]

I mean it's not always about the creator, but mostly for the reader. We don't make profiles or fix them for ourselves, we do it because of readers. And guess what, they might not remember the chapter or don't even know it. But with references they do.

And yes, other wikis have chapter list, but most haven't been worked on as much. It is also missing a lot of stuff from it, including for big franchises like DC and Marvel comics.

 

[Arkenis]

"Just have impeccable memory"


"Rely on other wikis to do your job for you, if they don't, weep"


"Work bad"

Mate honestly these are some really poor points.

No they aren't, they're good points. And another issue I have with this is that even if we put the reference we still have tell people where the specific statement or feat is within the chapter of a manga, movie, novel, or whatever media its in. It's a good thing to do but in versus matches it's still gonna require a lot of times us explaining the scan or showing them exactly where to find it. The scan should be efficient enough on the page. And remembering a chapter to a verse you're investing hours into isn't "impeccable memory" it's remembering a number and that's it, with novels it gets even more difficult

 

[Confluctor]

where the specific statement or feat is within the chapter of a manga

No we don't. We should just list the chapter number and that covers it. Novels are slightly tricky, yes, but you don't have to lead their hands like they are kids.

versus matches it's still gonna require a lot of times us explaining the scan or showing them exactly where to find it

We don't have to if there are references. Explaining, yes, sure that's fair. Sometimes people don't understand certain feats without verse context. But you can just tell them "just check the page and find it". That's what I would do. Tho j don't partake in versus threads as much. But either way, that seems like a non issue.

The scan should be efficient enough on the page

What if the scan used is a fake one? Or badly translated one? Or not canon. So many different things to consider.

And remembering a chapter to a verse you're investing hours into isn't "impeccable memory" it's remembering a number and that's it

Maybe if you just stick to one manga series, probably. But this wouldn't work for most other verses. Comics, extended verses - i.e. Index which has over 50 novels, like 5 different manga series at the least. not everyone has an amazing memory like you do.

 

[The_Impress]

Also like, the page isn't for the page creator, it's for the community. Said creator isn't gonna be on wiki all the time, and as such we don't need to be reliant on SOMEONE ELSE'S memories, to have basic sourcing for the stats.

They're not good points at all fam, you saying they are doesn't change it.

 

[Arkenis]

No we don't. We should just list the chapter number and that covers it. Novels are slightly tricky, yes, but you don't have to lead their hands like they are kids.

a simple chapter doesn't always give context for a certain ability

Maybe if you just stick to one manga series, probably. But this wouldn't work for most other verses. Comics, extended verses - i.e. Index which has over 50 novels, like 5 different manga series at the least. not everyone has an amazing memory like you do.

Maybe my memory is good idk bro lol I just think you'd have to go and explain stuff regardless of the chapter being there

What if the scan used is a fake one? Or badly translated one? Or not canon. So many different things to consider.

Thats the editors fault then no? and the real scan can simply be posted within a vs match if It ever needed to be addressed, this also sounds like it could be a problem of outdated pages also.

Also like, the page isn't for the page creator, it's for the community. Said creator isn't gonna be on wiki all the time, and as such we don't need to be reliant on SOMEONE ELSE'S memories, to have basic sourcing for the stats.

Thankfully multiple people know the verses on the wiki and others are just dead or inactive which is not a page problem.

Edit: I just wanna say I do references on pages I made as well, I'm just mainly arguing this cuz I know others would find the tediousness of putting references unlikeable and also would end up discouraged to update the page resulting in pages getting deleted which isn't something we should want.

 

[Confluctor]

a simple chapter doesn't always give context for a certain ability

Then list the relevant ones?

Maybe my memory is good idk bro lol I just think you'd have to go and explain stuff regardless of the chapter being there

Never had to do that myself. I just point them towards the file and if they still have issues, then i fix it on the file. Which ties back to my earlier fault

Thats the editors fault then no? and the real scan can simply be posted within a vs match if It ever needed to be addressed, this also sounds like it could be a problem of outdated pages also.

Older pages are a problem, which is why we want the newer ones to be better.

Also I don't get your first point

Edit: I just wanna say I do references on pages I made as well, I'm just mainly arguing this cuz I know others would find the tediousness of putting references unlikeable and also would end up discouraged to update the page resulting in pages getting deleted which isn't something we should want.

I mean we still get files without scans, which is bare minimum they should be doing. But they don't. We want these pages to look good and be reliable, not become outdated too quickly.

In any case, if imgur says they want to die tomorrow and all your images are lost... You don't have to worry that much. Because the references kinda takes care of that problem for the time being. And others could fill it in too.

 

[The_Impress]

Thankfully multiple people know the verses on the wiki

Not every verse and not fully

and others are just dead or inactive which is not a page problem

...?

 

[Arkenis]

...?

Im saying people being active isn't a page problem

 

[FinePoint]

I agree.
References are essential towards being fair, reliable, usable, and professional, and sufficient time has passed and sufficient precedent has been set to start enforcing it.

Relying on specific people to carry the knowledge of entire verses forever is simply a terrible idea that seriously hurts the long-term viability of the wiki.

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

I'd like to ask how to add references for verses with media that's a bit different

Firstly for something such as newspaper comics such as Garfield would you do something such as add a date as a reference as sites such as gocomics list the comics this way

Secondly games like telltale's walking dead, batman, Minecraft story mode, and Sam and Max which are divided into seasons and episodes with the season being given a name such as Sam and Max Save the world is season 1 of the series and it's sold as it's own game subsequent games are considered their own seasons as well

The last one is pro-wrestling which I wouldn't know aside from notable events such as WrestleMania, possibly air dates of the broadcast and just things that are separated like Monday night raw and Smackdown.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

yeah but work bad
work hard

 

[Confluctor]

Firstly for something such as newspaper comics such as Garfield would you do something such as add a date as a reference as sites such as gocomics list the comics this way

If it doesn't have chapter number or name, then yea, time works. Like day or month (if it's monthly)

Secondly games like telltale's walking dead, batman, Minecraft story mode, and Sam and Max which are divided into seasons and episodes with the season being given a name such as Sam and Max Save the world is season 1 of the series and it's sold as it's own game subsequent games are considered their own seasons as well

Can you elaborate a bit more?

The last one is pro-wrestling which I wouldn't know aside from notable events such as WrestleMania, possibly air dates of the broadcast and just things that

Pretty sure they have season/episodes. So just list that.

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

Can you elaborate a bit more?

So mainly games created by telltale are separated by seasons and episodes due to how heavily story-based they are. A season is released as a stand-alone game such as Sam and Max save the world is considered season one and games that come afterward are considered their own season which all have their own episodes within them

 

[LordTracer]

I completely agree with the OP.

 

[Confluctor]

So mainly games created by telltale are separated by seasons and episodes due to how heavily story-based they are. A season is released as a stand-alone game such as Sam and Max save the world is considered season one and games that come afterward are considered their own season which all have their own episodes within them

Then just list the episode.

 

[CuteAnimeNekoGirl99]

Then just list the episode.

oki .w.

 

[Bobsican]

Also, a recent concern in my part is that currently we don't request any justification whatsoever for any category, which leads into them very easy to misuse, so I wonder if it'd be possible at some point to also request references for non-intuitive categories.

 

[Agnaa]

Also, a recent concern in my part is that currently we don't request any justification whatsoever for any category, which leads into them very easy to misuse, so I wonder if it'd be possible at some point to also request references for non-intuitive categories.

As this test shows, references aren't useful for that sort of thing. So that's probably a topic best left for another thread.

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with OP.

DO YOU HAVE ANY ******* IDEA JUST HOW HARD IT IS TO LOOK UP THE NAME OF THE ISSUES OF FEATS FOR AMERICAN COMICS THAT RUN FOR ALMOST 85 YEARS? Manga are less intrusive but still getting there.

It's not like they even need the page numbers to begin with either, just the Chapter name alone should suffice as reference (Or the name of a game mission if any exists. Movies get leeway because timestamps are just too random to rely upon without getting yourself borked in the court of law for pirating movies, so just the movie name will do).

That and you never know when our scans get wiped off of the map or straight up made illegal to upload without being purchased because corporate executive dicks got too greedy with copyright and wanted to exert more control. (Sorry I wanted to be even more contemptuous to the assholes that abuse the copyright system or make up shitty copyright laws to screw over the little guy but this is the best I could do).

 

[SamanPatou]

I agree with the op and FRA

 

[Mariogoods]

I am a supporter of the reference policy and I have done this in the profiles created by me and it is expected for me to agree with this. However, I do think it takes time and we may not have enough active users to take care of reference problems. Even the Marvel profiles and DC profiles are not received "every profile has references" treatment, despite their popularity. We have a "FEATURED PAGES" and the profiles in "Characters" part do not have enough references. They include

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I do hope some knowledgeable members could take some time to give them references first. It is not I am against the idea. Rather, it is a suggestion to improve important profiles. I feel that a sufficient number of examples would bring more people adopting references.

Also, a recent concern in my part is that currently we don't request any justification whatsoever for any category, which leads into them very easy to misuse, so I wonder if it'd be possible at some point to also request references for non-intuitive categories.

As this test shows, references aren't useful for that sort of thing. So that's probably a topic best left for another thread.

I feel that the reference can be added in "Summary" section. Also, "Classification" part can have references too.

On an unrelated note, what's "OP"?

 

[Confluctor]

However, I do think it takes time and we may not have enough active users to take care of reference problems.

That's fine. The thing is, we need new profiles to have these refs. Old files are fine for now, but if any revision is to take place, those new additions should have refs.

Even the Marvel profiles and DC profiles are not received "every profile has references" treatment, despite their popularity. We have a "FEATURED PAGES" and the profiles in "Characters" part do not have enough references

Ofc they don't. I mean the new ones, all of them have refs. Old ones, 1, not everyone has time for it, 2, they are outdated. But new stuff being added to it does have refs - you should check them out.

 

[Armorchompy]

Not everything can have references. Take something like, I dunno, a 20 minutes arcade game, how would references even apply to that?

 

[Agnaa]

On an unrelated note, what's "OP"?

Original Post/Original Poster. The first post in a forum thread or the person who created a forum thread.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Pardon me. But how exactly do we handle people who are single movie only characters?

Such as Leviathan or Serpenters? Do I just repeatedly leave a reference to the movie at the end of every explanation?

 

[Confluctor]

I think we are thinking a little too much about it. For movies and short games, the name of it should suffice. It's unrealistic of us to add, say, time stamps to every feat.

Anyway, for movies, their names should suffice. If games don't have mission names or episode names, then just the main one should cover it.

Also for books and novels, the name of the book plus chapter should be fine. Yes, chapters are long, but page numbers aren't a good practice imo as it changes heavily from edition to edition.

 

[LordTracer]

Pardon me. But how exactly do we handle people who are single movie only characters?

Such as Leviathan or Serpenters? Do I just repeatedly leave a reference to the movie at the end of every explanation?

For characters like that, I think you could just list the movie in the references section.

 

[Agnaa]

The rule could only apply for media that's demarcated enough for references to be sensible. Or one could still include references, just in case further releases come out. We never know how long something will just remain one movie for.

 

[Armorchompy]

If a CRT is made to add information to a profile from additional content then references should be added, I really don't think it's something we should account for in advance lol, it'd just add pointless fluff to a profile to add 12 "[1]"s that all point to the same thing

 

[KLOL506]

Not everything can have references. Take something like, I dunno, a 20 minutes arcade game, how would references even apply to that?

Not everything needs overtly-complicated references. Just give the name of the game I guess?

 

[KLOL506]

If a CRT is made to add information to a profile from additional content then references should be added, I really don't think it's something we should account for in advance lol, it'd just add pointless fluff to a profile to add 12 "[1]"s that all point to the same thing

Also I don't think a CRT should be needed to add references to already-accepted stuff in the profiles. It shouldn't be any more important than just adding grammatical fixes IMHO.