Streets of Rage CRT

[Armorchompy]

Currently we have one profile for Streets of Rage's protagonist, Axel Stone. I believe it can be improved.

Mostly, the reasoning of Axel's moves being fire-powered because of sheer speed isn't really right IMO, not only is it not the default assumption for this kinda thing but SoR4 shows the flames taking weird shapes like the head of a dragon, so it's definitely not a natural phenomenon but some ki stuff. However the verse does remain at 8-C thanks to a feat in the fourth game and the usage of real lightning by Max, or rather, enemies tanking it even in mid-air.

Older games just stick to a weaker rating, there's a timeskip between every game (one year between 1 and 2, unknown but likely sizeable between 2 and 3 and a decade between 3 and 4) so key splitting is justified IMO.

Bottom line is, here's the rework.

 

[Chariot190]

Agreed.

 

[Tonygameman]

Much like as Chariot said, also agreed.

 

[Damage3245]

Rework looks fine to me.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I agree with this.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Although, i'm wondering about how LS can be apply for fodder dropping feat.

 

[SamanPatou]

Looks great, good job!

Also, Police Call can be labeled as Summoning

 

[Armorchompy]

Although, i'm wondering about how LS can be apply for fodder dropping feat.

Basically, if they didn't have the LS to brace for that fall they'd fall over even if they had enough durability to survive the fall

Looks great, good job!

Also, Police Call can be labeled as Summoning

Righto, will do

 

[XXKINGXX69]

If he can cover his body with this amount of fire without reacting to the heat then shouldn't that be limited resistance to fire?

 

[Armorchompy]

It could be, I'm not sure how we treat that kind of thing given he's the one creating it but it would definitely be a resistance if legit considering the flames can hurt comparable foes.

 

[Armorchompy]

on second thought, even assuming he controlled the flames away from his body which is possible, the heat would still be incredibly harmful so i'll probably give him the resist. anyone else have opinions on that?

 

[SamanPatou]

That's an issue, because you could extend that to all element users who project their attacks from their body, and I believe we have a non-written rule against that. I think characters need to either consistently resist elements from other people or made it clear that their element should be harmful even to themselves and that resisting it is an extraordinary ability.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hm, not sure, surrounding himself in it completely is kinda unusual but I guess I'll leave it like that for now. Anyway, that aside, can I add the page since two staff have approved it and the verse is fairly obscure?

 

[Abstractions]

However the verse does remain at 8-C thanks to a feat in the fourth game and the usage of real lightning by Max, or rather, enemies tanking it even in mid-air.

You can't actually use lightning this way unless everything generated by the lightning is contained within the body, which in this instance doesn't appear to be the case, I'm also not seeing the evidence for it being natural lightning in what you've shown, could it not be derivative of the "ki stuff" you speculated towards in the OP, which would then not have the implied strength natural lightning would have?

 

[Armorchompy]

By "contained within the body" do you mean completely absorbed by the target?

It's called "thunder strike" and comes from the sky, I think it being natural should be the assumption, if I had to argue further I could point out how all other examples of elemental manip in SoR come from the user's body. It's probably caused by whatever vague power system the verse runs on but that doesn't mean it's not lightning.

 

[Abstractions]

By "contained within the body" do you mean completely absorbed by the target?

Yes.

It's called "thunder strike" and comes from the sky, I think it being natural should be the assumption, if I had to argue further I could point out how all other examples of elemental manip in SoR come from the user's body

A name for a move doesn't always imply something so literal as natural lightning. Akuma's Hundred Ogre Assault doesn't actually entail one hundred ogres assaulting a target, it's just a title for an attack.

If I were to argue semantically I could say it's already not following itself so literally either, the person isn't attacking with the sound of travelling lightning but the lightning itself. It should actually be called "lightning strike".

If you're keen on it being 100% natural I'd want to know why you're cherry-picking the flames when one could simply make the assumption that the powers operate under the same system.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Normal electricity can't even do this amount of damage to a regular human, but how does this even scale to his strength?

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes.

A beat 'em up can't really be expected to have that sort of variance on its attacks methinks, especially when it's an indie game with an already very expensive animation style. Furthermore, I don't believe I see this kind of requirement made explicit in the page, to my knowledge we consider the target being airborne to be enough.

A name for a move doesn't always imply something so literal as natural lightning. Akuma's Hundred Ogre Assault doesn't actually entail one hundred ogres assaulting a target, it's just a descriptor for an attack.

The difference here is that you can very much tell that there's no ogres going on in Akuma's attack, while as we can very clearly see for Max, lightning is striking.

If I were to argue semantically I could say it's already not following itself so literally either, the person isn't attacking with the sound of travelling lightning but the lightning itself. It should actually be called "lightning strike".

You could, and it would be a silly amount of cherry-picking, since thunder referring to lightning is the world's most common metonymy to the point that they're almost synonyms, so it's good that you aren't.

If you're keen on it being 100% natural I'd want to know why you're cherry-picking the flames when one could simply make the assumption that the powers operate under the same system.

Because they do not behave like real flames, while the lightning does, to a reasonable degree. I don't see how it being evoked by a supernatural power lessens its validity inherently, given that basically every lightning feat used on the wiki also is.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, if an attack was called lightning death strike and involved a lightning bolt coming down from the sky to smite a target, at that point it's probably safe to assume the lightning coming the sky is lightning coming from the sky. There's being conservative and cautious but then there's just being overly anal, occam's razer after all.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the reason for speed was pretty shitty; we assume Hypersonic just because he can deliver fiery punches; and it's being treated as a speed feat when it could just be limited fire manipulation.

And as for the lighting strike, I haven't read the specific statement, but judging it based of watchframebyframe, it kind of looks like the lightning came from his punch and is striking upwards.

Before

After

Although, Chariot's statement is making a good point if the statement does sound very specific. But the important thing is if we can confirm if anyone actually reacts to the lightning bolt or how fast they physically move compared to the lightning bolt.

 

[Armorchompy]

And as for the lighting strike, I haven't read the specific statement, but judging it based of watchframebyframe, it kind of looks like the lightning came from his punch and is striking upwards.

That could be then, yeah. FYI you don't need wfbf, you can advance by a frame with , and . on Youtube.

Although, Chariot's statement is making a good point if the statement does sound very specific. But the important thing is if we can confirm if anyone actually reacts to the lightning bolt or how fast they physically move compared to the lightning bolt.

We're not scaling to the bolt's speed, just AP since it strikes people in midair. Though if it goes up, it might not be valid after all.

 

[Armorchompy]

Though if it goes up, it might not be valid after all.

Nevermind, apparently, there is a stage of lightning before the strike itself where electricity rises from the ground. There is a stage before that, where a "feeler" of the electricity descends, but considering the speed of lightning relative to the game's speed it's possible that's just too fast to be seen in the animation, or could very well be off-screen. Pretty fascination short lil' video actually.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, I tried bolding the P&A on Axel's profile, does it look better or worse?

 

[Armorchompy]

early bump cuz im going to sleep

 

[Abstractions]

Because they do not behave like real flames, while the lightning does, to a reasonable degree. I don't see how it being evoked by a supernatural power lessens its validity inherently, given that basically every lightning feat used on the wiki also is.

Because depending on the source the "electricity/lightning" comes from people may be inclined to be very particular about it. Like in the instance of your generic "magic lightning", and criteria such as "is it coming from a cloud" with the caveat that if the cloud were also indoors that would then make the cloud supernatural and thus hard to gauge if the lightning is 100% genuine.

So the problem begins when you're attempting to justify x with a potential in-verse power system that isn't explained in anyway but will then discard it for another character, when it would logically render the same person's abilities up for scrutiny.

For example, Swords and Sandals II has lightning magic that comes from a cloud indoors or outdoors, it coming from a source of magic is inherently going to make people look at it in a different lens when you are attempting to slap something like an MHS+ rating or an 8-C rating on top of it. This is why the supernatural power aspect is important because while it may keep the aesthetics or appearance of lightning but doesn't necessarily carry the same voltage or joule value.

Furthermore, I don't believe I see this kind of requirement made explicit in the page, to my knowledge we consider the target being airborne to be enough.

It's actually been noted for years now that tanking lightning in itself doesn't exactly warrant an 8-C rating and has additional caveats. It can be done by a 10-B rather easily.

 

[Armorchompy]

Because depending on the source the "electricity/lightning" comes from people may be inclined to be very particular about it. Like in the instance of your generic "magic lightning", and criteria such as "is it coming from a cloud" with the caveat that if the cloud were also indoors that would then make the cloud supernatural and thus hard to gauge if the lightning is 100% genuine.

I see only one person being particular about it really, as long as it behaves like real lightning magic lightning it is usually accepted without hesitation. I could point to various verses if you'd like examples, Sekiro, Shovel Knight, Lollipop Chainsaw, The Last Airbender, Kamen Rider, Vampire Hunter D (Movie), Brave Frontier I am literally looking through what links to the lightning feats page, and I could go on for longer. Again, if it behaves like normal lightning, it's lightning, even if magic in origin, why should this be different?

So the problem begins when you're attempting to justify x with a potential in-verse power system that isn't explained in anyway but will then discard it for another character, when it would logically render the same person's abilities up for scrutiny.

Honestly, nothing actually says there's a verse power system, one character is confirmed to use ki, everyone else just has powers without explanation, so nobody's saying it's the same thing as other characters' fire/energy projection. It's very likely a similar thing but if you're going to pick this random point to be stubborn on, then no, prove it's the same sort of power system before drawing parallels.

For example, Swords and Sandals II has lightning magic that comes from a cloud indoors or outdoors, it coming from a source of magic is inherently going to make people look at it in a different lens when you are attempting to slap something like an MHS+ rating or an 8-C rating on top of it.

The verse is literally 8-C already, it's less than a 1.5x AP upgrade and they don't scale in speed.

This is why the supernatural power aspect is important because while it may keep the aesthetics or appearance of lightning but doesn't necessarily carry the same voltage or joule value.

Alright, prove it ain't, cause it sure looks like lightning, it's called lightning (kinda) and nothing indicates it behaving in a different way from lightning with even a small touch of realism to it with some electricity rising from the ground, supernatural or not I see no reason to assume it's not akin to real lightning.

It's actually been noted for years now that tanking lightning in itself doesn't exactly warrant an 8-C rating and has additional caveats. It can be done by a 10-B rather easily.

I am aware, the requirement for it scaling to durability is (again) it being tanked in the air, as accepted for verses like Sekiro or Shovel Knight. Which, for the record, both use supernatural lightning for the feat.

 

[Abstractions]

Honestly, nothing actually says there's a verse power system, one character is confirmed to use ki, everyone else just has powers without explanation, so nobody's saying it's the same thing as other characters' fire/energy projection. It's very likely a similar thing but if you're going to pick this random point to be stubborn on, then no, prove it's the same sort of power system before drawing parallels.

I'm not attempting to prove anything, I'm just working within your own narrative. If you have a problem with it that should be a clue for some introspection on the matter.

The verse is literally 8-C already, it's less than a 1.5x AP upgrade and they don't scale in speed.

I bring up the MHS+ as a general thing and wasn't suggesting nor was under the impression they scaled to it. But them being in that tier already is frankly irrelevant to the subject, you're basically saying "it's already so close to that why bother arguing just let it happen" which I wouldn't need to tell you why that's a slippery slope.

Alright, prove it ain't, cause it sure looks like lightning, it's called lightning (kinda) and nothing indicates it behaving in a different way from lightning with even a small touch of realism to it with some electricity rising from the ground, supernatural or not I see no reason to assume it's not akin to real lightning.

That isn't up to me to do, I'm not the one asserting it is real lightning while simultaneously asserting a power system onto the verse.

I am aware, the requirement for it scaling to durability is (again) it being tanked in the air

One of the links I sent you to look at reads as follows:
"8-C is the total yield of the entire lightning bolt; however, it's not too impressive durability wise based on how natural lightning works. Lightning phases through targets, and it's mostly the ground and the air that absorb most of the impact. Basically inverse square law where it's only decently impressive if the target is very large. A human tanking a lightning bolt would technically be Street levels of survivability."

Most of the energy output of the lightning is lost as it travels and arcs through the air, meaning that by the time it's close to the ground most of that energy is lost, so regardless of the character being slightly within the air that still wouldn't qualify for the value you're seeking from it.

Your blog is fine, Armor. The upgrade with the lightning is just a no from me.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm not attempting to prove anything, I'm just working within your own narrative. If you have a problem with it that should be a clue for some introspection on the matter.

My assumptions have literally nothing to do with the AP itself and were at best flavor text, yours are central to your arguments. Speaking of narrative, can't help but notice you've completely avoided replying to my first paragraph.

I bring up the MHS+ as a general thing and wasn't suggesting nor was under the impression they scaled to it. But them being in that tier already is frankly irrelevant to the subject, you're basically saying "it's already so close to that why bother arguing just let it happen" which I wouldn't need to tell you why that's a slippery slope.

No, I'm saying that you're making it sound like a huge, sweeping change is going on while it really isn't anything like that. Which is kind of a weird thing to bring up in the first place, to be quite honest.

That isn't up to me to do, I'm not the one asserting it is real lightning while simultaneously asserting a power system onto the verse.

Cool, I'm not doing that either then, I just said that it could be assumed there's a power system, it was completely unrelated to my arguments.

One of the links I sent you to look at reads as follows:
"8-C is the total yield of the entire lightning bolt; however, it's not too impressive durability wise based on how natural lightning works. Lightning phases through targets, and it's mostly the ground and the air that absorb most of the impact. Basically inverse square law where it's only decently impressive if the target is very large. A human tanking a lightning bolt would technically be Street levels of survivability."

Most of the energy output of the lightning is lost as it travels and arcs through the air, meaning that by the time it's close to the ground most of that energy is lost, so regardless of the character being slightly within the air that still wouldn't qualify for the value you're seeking from it.

That's not how electricity works, if it were to somehow be made to hit a target in the air the entire energy of the bolt would hit that target since there's nothing for it to instantly flow to. What it does afterwards is irrelevant. Again, both Shovel Knight and Sekiro have this happen with the electricity eventually making it to the ground, I don't think you're as aware of site standards regarding lightning as you think you are.

 

[Abstractions]

speaking of narrative, can't help but notice you've completely avoided replying to my first paragraph.

Because I'd only be speculating as to the reasoning for what statistics those verses have so I wasn't going to respond to it, what exactly do you want from me?

Cool, I'm not doing that either then, I just said that it could be assumed there's a power system, which was completely unrelated to my arguments.

And I was remarking how said assumption has further implications than what you intended to leave it off at so it could easily end up being relevant.

That's not how electricity works, if it were to somehow be made to hit a target in the air the entire energy of the bolt would hit that target since there's nothing for it to instantly flow to.

No no, you're missing what is being said, it's important because it's no longer "the entire energy of the bolt" because much of it is lost as it arcs through the air and is expended as heat + light, so by the time it reaches the target it's nowhere near the 8-C value.

Again, both Shovel Knight and Sekiro have this happen, I don't think you're as aware of site standards regarding lightning as you think you are.

Okay, and that can be wrong too, you know full well statistics are subject to change, so I'm not sure what's so pertinent about Shovel Knight and Sekiro, which mind you are probably wildly different cases within the same subject.

I'll ping @Wokistan here as I've talked to him about it in DMs.

 

[Armorchompy]

Because I'd only be speculating as to the reasoning for what statistics those verses have so I wasn't going to respond to it, what exactly do you want from me?
Okay, and that can be wrong too, you know full well statistics are subject to change, so I'm not sure what's so pertinent about Shovel Knight and Sekiro, which mind you are probably wildly different cases within the same subject.

You're making an argument based on site standards, I'm positing that site standards ain't that way.

And I was remarking how said assumption has further implications than what you intended to leave it off at so it could easily end up being relevant.

And since it's just an assumption, it doesn't hold up that much weight.

No no, you're missing what is being said, it's important because it's no longer "the entire energy of the bolt" because much of it is lost as it arcs through the air and is expended as heat + light, so by the time it reaches the target it's nowhere near the 8-C value.

Meh that makes sense but would require a site-wide revision with how many verses use that.

I'll ping @Wokistan here as I've talked to him about it in DMs.

He doesn't read in-site pings iirc, tag him on Discord or something.

 

[Abstractions]

Meh that makes sense but would require a site-wide revision with how many verses use that.

He doesn't read in-site pings iirc, tag him on Discord or something.

I have, he said he'd get to it tomorrow.

I'll also note that he in passing said that he wanted to make a general thread on the topic at some point in the future but that's up in the air.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, that's fine. I mean if just jumping and tanking lightning in the air isn't enough I guess there's not much that can be done about that, just would like confirmation is all.

 

[Armorchompy]

... Is it fine if I just apply the thing minus lightning stuff, and then we can see how this gets resolved?

 

[Shmooply]

Also, I tried bolding the P&A on Axel's profile, does it look better or worse?

IMHO it feels pretty unnecessary considering he doesn't have that many things.

 

[Wokistan]

The issue with lightning is that it's just never actually going to strike something with all that power at once. The tldr of it is that the reason it's even that high to begin with is because electricity arcing through air is incredibly inefficient and almost all of it is just lost to light and heat along the bolt.

For something a bit more specific, there's an equation called Paschen's Law which you can use to find when electricity will arc under what conditions, but the important thing here is that for standard temperature and pressure it's something like 3.4 megavolts to arc one meter. That doesn't mean that a 3.4 megavolt pulse would be able to jump the gap and keep on going as though nothing happened, that's 3.4 megavolts that's just straight up lost to inefficiency because the atmosphere is a terrible conductor of electricity. It will not actually meet the other terminal with that voltage still intact. A quick google search and wikipedia seems to be putting the lowest end for the base of a lightning cloud at a kilometer off the ground. That's a whole lot of distance to travel in a very inefficient manner, and I don't think anyone really ever gets close enough to clouds in these sorts of feats where you can overcome that it'd be taken down to almost nothing due to the resistance of the air. But even then, there's something else that pokes a hole in scaling a dude floating around in the air getting zapped to a lightning bolt: Airplanes.

Airplanes themselves are built to take lightning strikes. It's not ideal and pilots aren't going to fly through or under thunderstorms if they can help it (although wind/air pressure weirdness is a bigger issue here than the lightning), but the plane will usually be fine. Some damage, some electrical problems, potential blindness of the crew, but airplanes aren't really blown out of the sky by lightning. If we're going to default lightning to 8-C+, then there's clearly something wrong here, because that's on par with some of the biggest conventional explosives out there. If anti air rockets use far smaller yields than that, we know that planes obviously cannot take some 8-C+ impact. As such, the lightning must just not hit flying targets with the full theoretical charge either.

Also, according to this, many airplane lightning incidents happen with a plane flying through a charged cloud, with the plane itself as the point of origin for the surge. It straight up is the source and yet energy transfer isn't working the way it should work if 8-C+ lightning bolt tanking was real. From what I can find, the last time lightning did serious damage to a plane was in 1967, where it set fuel tanks on fire. Planes have been designed with the idea that they'll probably get struck at some point in mind since the 30s, which just isn't something that can be designed around if we assume this VBWism is true.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, that's reasonable. Will be removing the lightning stuff from my draft and posting it, if that's fine.

Also, does anyone else have opinions on the bolded P&A? If not I'll remove it.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'd say bolded is better, given the large amount of text.

 

[Abstractions]

It looks fine, go ahead and throw it out there.

 

[Armorchompy]

will do

also sorry shmooply, i'm keeping the bold i think

 

[Abstractions]

also sorry shmooply, i'm keeping the bold i think

No need to apologize to him, as we all know bluenames aren't allowed to have opinions.