Street Fighter Speed revision

[Grudgeman1706]

Also that calc I feel uses improper distance scaling anyways, if you want to use that. I've to give Akuma a projectile speed boost(which can't scale to anyone for reasons I stated in the top of the thread) use this calc http://www.t5forums.com/forum/the-vs-sections/general-discussion/calcs/93153-akuma-s-hadoken-speed

 

[Antvasima]

However, all fighters seem to be of at least somewhat comparable speed level. It seems strange to place a few of them at Massively Hypersonic+, and the rest at Supersonic+.

The latter category should at least somewhat scale.

Btw: Matthew, feel free to place messages on the walls of a few calc group members asking for help with the Charlie feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Grudge

Are you really implying that Oro, Gil and Shin Akuma can't dodge base Akuma's hadouken?

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Grudge

Are you really implying that Oro, Gil and Shin Akuma can't dodge base Akuma's hadouken?

Of course not, I'm trying to tell you that calc of that feat is not usable for speed scaling. I'll summarize it you later why we can't use it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But you say the T5 can be used.

So would you be okay with Mach 300+ God Tiers?

 

[Antoniofer]

Sorry for my little contribition, I been busy with college; @Antvasima, here's your requested calc

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for the help.

 

[Kryptonian_Supremacy]

@Matthew It should be applicable to his Projectile Speed Since It Is HIS Energy.

But whatever.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

But you say the T5 can be used.

So would you be okay with Mach 300+ God Tiers?

Matt the problem is that we can't scale the calc to anyone but to Akuma, and even then we can't scale his normal reaction and combat speed to this calc because of the following reasons

Akuma has never used this attack before on any opponent

Akumas other normal energy techniques are much slower than this so we can't assume that speeds would be similar(check my Ryu video and explanation above)

This isn't a Normal gohadoken, but a brand new ultra move and thus the speed calc will only scale to that move and Akuma alone(think of Esdeath with her ice storm commander and chief)

That's just it Matt, I'm not even using the argument that it could be an outlier, I'm just using the fact that this calc isn't possible to scale, even if the other God tiers have dodged and won against Akuma, they still haven't encountered the Seikya Konrestu ha, and this move can't scale to Akumas normal speed because of how inconsistent it is to other street fighter speed feats, not mention this is a ultra move not a normal one, the only thing we can do is make Akumas profile look like this

Speed: Unknown, At least supersonic+(scaling form Ryu), MHS projectile speed (when firing the Seikya Konretsu ha)

Can you accept this Matt?

 

[Kryptonian_Supremacy]

There's No Proof At All That The Seikya Knoretsu Ha Is Faster Akuma's Normal Attacks Actually.


You Can't Use Visual Representation To Support Your Argument Because That's Unquantifiable.

By That Same Logic, DBZ Characters Fire Sub Sonic Kid Blasts At Each Other.

You Also Never Gave ANY Proof That It Was An ULTIMATE ATTACK, You Just ASSUMED It Was.


It Should Scale Just Fine.

But The Revisions Are Done, So It Doesn't Really Matter.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Please stop using capital letters in that manner, it gives me an eyesore.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Kryptonian yes please don't type like that,

One their is proof that the "Sekya Konretsu Ha" is different from normal moves(again I have provided a link above in my OP under the RYu link. You can see that Ryus ha dilemma don't go anywhere near the speed shown of the Sekya Konretsu ha, before you start saying that's ryu and not akuma, akumas go hadokens don't go any faster than Ryus can, saying they do would be heavily exaggerating.

Second the reason unsay it's a new ultimate move comes from two reasonings. The first is that all of akumas ultimately and supers are all highly destructive (minus the shin Goku satsu) the one time. They introduce the "Sekya Konretsu ha" it destroyed a large section of a forest. Plus from the context it implies very much that akuma created a brand new ultimate.

My reasoning still very much stands,

 

[Kryptonian_Supremacy]

Nah Dude.

 

[Kryptonian_Supremacy]

@Grudgeman No Problem With How I Type.


Once Again, You Have Given No Proof That They Move At The Same Speed.

You're Just Assuming They Do, You Can't Use Visual Representation Like I Said Before.

So Implications? No Definitive Evidence. As I Thought.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@Grudgeman No Problem With How I Type.


Once Again, You Have Given No Proof That They Move At The Same Speed.

You're Just Assuming They Do, You Can't Use Visual Representation Like I Said Before.

So Implications? No Definitive Evidence. As I Thought.

First, I don't like repeating myself multiple times, and you've been ignoring the evidence that I've proved for you

Second, yes you can use visual representation, especially since that is what the calc and feat are about,street fighters best feats are visual representation, I've shown you a good example of a normal attack from a TOP tier, and you've purposely ignored it.

You say it's a normal attack, but looking at the video alone and you can clearly see its not some normal attack.

by your logic if using visual representation is unquantifiable, than we can't use the speed feat at all, since the calc is based on visual representation.

Kryptonian you have not provided anything noticeable to disprove me or why we can scale the move to anything but Akuma and it being a singular projectile speed.

 

[Kryptonian_Supremacy]

I'm Not Ignoring Anything.

We Can't Use Visual Representation In This Sense Because We Have No Way To Quantify What The ACTUAL SPEED Of Ryu's Hadouken's Are.

Like I Said Before, BY YOUR SAME LOGIC.

DBZ Ki Blasts Are ALL SUB SONIC, So I Guess DBZ Ki Blasts Are All Sub Sonic Now.

Base Ryu Is FODDER To Base Akuma By The Way.

So There Goes Your Example.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

>DBZ ki blast is all sub sonic by my logic

Really, multiple feats of their ki reaching far beyond earth into space begs a differ, and unlike SF, DBZ actually had multiple high level consistent speed feats,to SFs multiple Supersonic to subsonic feats.

>Base Ryu is fodder to base Akuma By the way

I beg to differ, yes base Akuma is stronger than Ryu, however he is by far not fodder, Ryu actually puts up a great match against Akuma, even gaining the upper hand in their fight in SF alpha 2, while Akuma was testing him, he recognized Ryus strength and the power he's holding back

And BTW, you do know Ryu is literally constantly fighting the Satsui no hado ESPECIALLY in battle, so the fact that he put up a great fight with Akuma even gaining the upper hand all while still holding back himself, he shows he's clearly not fodder.

 

[Antvasima]

@Kryptonian Supremacy Please calm down, and stay civil.

 

[Kryptonian_Supremacy]

@Grudgeman Akuma Was Toying With Him.

@Antvasima Who Said I Was Upset?

 

[Antvasima]

You are using caps and being rather disrespectful and aggressive.

 

[Kryptonian_Supremacy]

Nothing In My Comment Implies That I'm Being Aggressive.


But Whatever.

 

[BrainSWord74]

Akuma was just charging his Ki, it isn't some new final move, so, his Ki attacks are that fast, unless Akuma holds back.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Nothing In My Comment Implies That I'm Being Aggressive.

But Whatever.

You continue to use capital letters in an obnoxious manner despite me, Grudge and Antvasima tell you to stop. Not very wise you know?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, let's return to the topic, in a polite manner.

 

[AguilaR101]

Actually watching this leads me to believe Bison and by extension anyone above him could still get scaling to MHS speeds (mach 300+) from the beam}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzI4RrVgiik

Things to consider

a) bison was flying at speeds comparable to the beam

b) he managed to percieve it in the last second but was unable to dodge it

c) his psycho crusher is a very simple special like the hadouken, not even an ultimate move so it is very hard to believe he hasn't used it against his opponents.

point b is likely because of two reasons:

1) he didn't see the beam coming until it was literally in front of his face due to the angle

2) when he was intercepted the beam he was also flying full speed, so in reality he was percieving something that was coming at 2x times the speed from his point of view, so that stands as reason for why he wasn't able to avoid it.

From that I conclude that he is somewhat scalable to the mach 300+ speed of the beam and so is anyone who can fight him.

Though it would be helpful if someone actually measured Bisons psycho crusher flight speed relative to the beam since he slightly slower going by the visuals.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

@aguila. I'm sorry, but we can't use bisons psycho crusher feat at all, it's noncannon

 

[AguilaR101]

@aguila. I'm sorry, but we can't use bisons psycho crusher feat at all, it's noncanno

I disagree with that notion, while a sequence of events may not be canon, it doesn't mean the feat is automatically written off as unusable. what makes "canon" ending bison substantially different from the "non-canon" version to say he couldn't do the same under similar circumstances?

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That may be a good point.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay. Here's my final two cents about the Bison ending:

The Canon ending is Ryu's, which has him surpassing his limitations and not falling to the Satsui no Hadou, instead defeating Bison through the Power of Nothingness (Which he awakened through will and friendship).

The Bison ending has Ryu as the final boss, and showcases what would have happened if Bison was victorious. This is not an impossible series of events. It is what would have happened if Ryu lost his canon fight against Bison. This is not a silly impossible ending where Zangief dances with the president of Russia, to give you an example. While the events in said ending didn't happen, the characters had all the means to do it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We can use the speed of the laser because it's a machine Bison constructed and canonically had. This is not a non-canon event of a character such as Dan defeats Akuma. This is consistent.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think about this?

However, all fighters seem to be of at least somewhat comparable speed level. It seems strange to place a few of them at Massively Hypersonic+, and the rest at Supersonic+.

The latter category should at least somewhat scale.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not exactly true. They seem all comparable in speed because it's a fighting game and that's kinda required in order for the game to function, but we see certain characters blitzing others in game cutscenes, the comics and the IV anime adaptations. To assume that low-level characters like Dan, Sean or El Fuerte would move comparably to Ryu would just be silly.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but to have a massive chasm between the seasoned characters, such as Guile, and the high-tiers seems very unreliable as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Perhaps. I am not sure where to put the divide. We seem to have three levels with Street Fighter levels.

The weakest characters who are Wall to Low Tier 8

The strong main cast which is generally 7-C

And the Top / God Tiers who are High 7-A and above.

As this feat was performed by Alpha 3 M.Bison, it can maybe only scale to those.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Maybe a new thread should be created, for the purpose of properly tiering the characters? This one is going far too long, and seems to have little interest from the community anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems like a good idea, yes. Just remember to close this one in conjunction.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Will open one today, but now I got class so I can't.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I disagree with that notion, while a sequence of events may not be canon, it doesn't mean the feat is automatically written off as unusable. what makes "canon" ending bison substantially different from the "non-canon" version to say he couldn't do the same under similar circumstances?

you are ignoring something , the very factors of what makes canon and noncanon ending.

This will also be my final two cents on the Chun li laser ending feat, this message is to answer both yours and matts response.

You guys must remember the reasons that Chun lis ending(yes this is where the feat came from) is noncanon in the first place.

You can't compare the fact that Ryus and bisons ending to this one because, unlike chun lis ending, the only true factor that was different for bison ending and Ryus was who won the fight. Chun lis is in no way comparable to the canon endings. It has so many different changes and no small difference. Also while YES with the right circumstances any of these fights could be possible, but you have to remember these noncanon endings are "what if" endings.

As such these kind of stories don't really consider the actual abilities or differences in strength(example, marvel with their what if stories, having hulk destroy Thor's hammer, etc)

In the case of chun lis ending, several things were different and drastically changed comapred to the canon ending

.Charlie Nash never died .Chun li was able to defeat ALPHA 3 BISON(which we know is impossible, as even a weaker incarnation of bison stomped chun li, heck she even lost recently in SFV to him and nearly died) .the shadoloo base was never destroyed

These are big factors and impotent part of the story changed form the canon endings, and are reasons we can't use the ending in the first place

@Matt you use the argument that because the psycho drive exists, it could have happen. That's a bit ludicrous don't you think because, by that logic every noncanon material like marvel vs capcom, Asura wrath, or other franchises where charscters in a noncanon ending beat a god tier, should be accepted

You're basically saying we need to ignore outliers and forget things are non canon because they "could" happen

You and I know both know that can't happen or is wrong. Chun lis ending is nowhere near similar to the canon and thus can't happen, the fact that she Won against M.bison already indicates how different it is to normal canon endings,

Yes m.Bison did have the psycho drive, but it was an outside source he used to gain more power than he could possibly use(it was actually deteriorating his body, and the reaosn AP3 bison is the strongest version) also even if it was possible, the machine doesn't exist anymore as it was permanently destroyed remember.

and also the feat that we get the feat from comes from the fact that the laser itsself moves at that speed. But bison himself is suggested to possibly move near speeds like that.

It's bad to assume that because the psycho drive exist, means the feat could be real. That's way to hypothetical.


Matt I'm sorry I respect you a lot man, but you gotta give up on this feat man, it's unusable and in a way not real. I hope i didn't come off mean or arrogant to you(I'm only trying to be accurate and truthful). The fact is SF isn't known for speed(just take a look at the canon speed feats we have, most don't even get pass supersonic, We will find more speed feats for SF(even if we have to wait for it). But for now we should drop these feats permanently.

I really hope this clears up the misconceptions about using this feat.