Stomps With A Small Degree Of Randomness

[Agnaa]

I've been informed that if an ability has even a small degree of randomness, a win from it isn't considered a stomp, even if that ability usually has one result that leads to a stomp.

For a practical example, Weather Report's Heavy Weather has passive instant power nullification and mindhax social influence hax, but it fails on around 1/3rd of opponents. Therefore, even though he's assumed to passively powernull and mindhax the opponent into not doing anything 66% of the time, it's not a stomp since 33% of the time it fails.

I think this is a bad loophole to have in our stomp match rules, we shouldn't allow passive stomps just because there's an insignificant chance the ability doesn't work as it usually does.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

33% of the time is not an insignificant chance. We allow matches where the loser is far less likely to succed than that, even if we cannot put an exact number on it.

 

[Agnaa]

Stomp matches aren't just about the % chance. We allow matches where the loser has a 0% chance to succeed.

I also think that anything less than 50% is insignificant for a passive insta-win ability. If a character passively wins the majority of the time, I don't think it matters if the majority is 51%, 66%, 99%, or 100%.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

They are primarilly about having a chance at all, and also do we on the latter thing?

What exactly makes probability of a move working any different from the probability of a character using something? If it is just a gut feeling, then that is purely subjective. I feel that it is broken, but it isn't any more of a stomp than any other probability aspect to a match

 

[Moritzva]

...hrmm.

This is actually a tough one.

I would imagine this moreso falls on the clause of "leaving absolutely no room for discussion."

If the battle is that easy, as "33% of not working otherwise transmutation gg" and there are no other factors, then what is the match about? The opponent has nothing, and they are at the mercy of the opponent accidentally missing to not die. I'd be inclined to call that a stomp, though I can appreciate arguments otherwise.

Effectively, if "randomness" is literally the only thing allowing the opponent to even have a chance, and that randomness is below 50%, I'd call it a stomp. The opponent, definitionally, lose more than 50% of the time with zero discussion and no consideration of their own abilities, and that's not much of a discussion nor debate at all.

I'd like to see other opinions.

 

[Wokistan]

I feel like a third is a pretty significant margin of error and would just accept that as a win.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

...hrmm.
This is actually a tough one.

I would imagine this moreso falls on the clause of "leaving absolutely no room for discussion."

If the battle is that easy, as "33% of not working otherwise transmutation gg" and there are no other factors, then what is the match about? The opponent has nothing, and they are at the mercy of the opponent accidentally missing to not die. I'd be inclined to call that a stomp, though I can appreciate arguments otherwise.

Effectively, if "randomness" is literally the only thing allowing the opponent to even have a chance, and that randomness is below 50%, I'd call it a stomp. The opponent, definitionally, lose more than 50% of the time with zero discussion and no consideration of their own abilities, and that's not much of a discussion nor debate at all.

I'd like to see other opinions.

Don't forget, the match isn't over if they pass it. If you can manage to not be passived 33% of the time, then you get your shot at killing weather report, its just that this naturally shows that Weather wins the other 66% of the time, so most people don't bother to actually discuss the other 33% of the time.

 

[Antoniofer]

Technically, that how fights works, there's no absolute results, most of the time (assuming one doesn't put a human level character with no abilities against a being with supernatural conditions, or similar) either character have certain range of probabilities to defeat the other; so is supposed to discuss what has more chances to win.

So, if a character have an ability that is probability based, one need to take it into account (like, one character is only capable to cause damage 60Ôäà, so one evalute using that has a basis, and assuming that 60% as a 100%, and then emulating the fight with that ability working all the time, so if the character wins a 80% of the time, that's mean it really wins 48% of the time, a close fight, with it end losing most of the time).

By the way, why is HW considered Social Influencing if its basically hypnotism?

 

[Agnaa]

They are primarilly about having a chance at all

They are primarily about having room for debate, to quote something many people agreed on in the last thread about stomps...

Unlike a match which is decisive in one character's favor, stomp matches very rarely leave any room for debate, with their outcomes coming across as predictable to anyone with even cursory knowledge of the combatants and their abilities.

and also do we on the latter thing? I glanced through the last thread since I remembered something like this but no-one involved was willing to confirm for me and dug up these statements:

If two characters are incredibly evenly matched, but are stonewalled due to defensive capabilities, but one has a trump card in the matter, I would be inclined to (under most circumstances) not call it a stomp.

I agree that this isn't super clear on the 0% thing, but there weren't many comments on it. Here's a clearer post by Earl, responding to DDM, and attempting to summarize DDM's argument:

Oh so your take is Stomp means overkilling someone. whereas 0 chances of winning decisive cus it's not always overkill. I guess that it does make sense. I just look at "Stomp" and "Decisive" based on "how fair is this for the other person". So i consider 0 chances of winning a stomp because, it's not fair to put someone against another person that he literally cannot win against. While you don't judge it on fair.

And Earl seemed to have other members disagreeing with him over this, so I think it's safe to say quite a few people draw a distinction between "Decisive 0% chance of winning" and "stomp".

What exactly makes probability of a move working any different from the probability of a character using something? If it is just a gut feeling, then that is purely subjective. I feel that it is broken, but it isn't any more of a stomp than any other probability aspect to a match

Because the probability of a character using something has them both moving at the same speed, rather than one getting speedblitzed by a passive.

I feel like a third is a pretty significant margin of error and would just accept that as a win.

I'd agree if the source of randomness was anything other "the ability itself sometimes doesn't work on this specific person", and if the speed of the random ability was anything slower than passive.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Because it isn't hyponotism. Its basically just screaming into your subconcious "SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL", and then your brain hears that and goes "oh shit, guess I'm a snail" and then because of that, depending on unknown factors your brain induces a number of different effects related to snails. It isn't any more hypnotism then me giving you a sugar pill, telling you it will make you feel better, and then you feeling better shortly after because of it

 

[Agnaa]

Because it isn't hyponotism. Its basically just screaming into your subconcious "SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL SNAIL", and then your brain hears that and goes "oh shit, guess I'm a snail" and then because of that, depending on unknown factors your brain induces a number of different effects related to snails. It isn't any more hypnotism then me giving you a sugar pill, telling you it will make you feel better, and then you feeling better shortly after because of it

that sounds exactly like hypnotism

 

[Wokistan]

I feel like a lot of mind manip resistance encompasses people speaking inside their minds

 

[Antoniofer]

That's may be also hypnotism, not all hypnosis have to be something that mind controls others against their will, sending subliminal messages to ones consciusness also works as this. In this case is a subliminal message caused by an optical phenomena that makes other believe they are snails (as stated, if someone do not perceive light, the message do not reach the brain).

 

[Moritzva]

Agnaa, do you think it would be a stomp or not?

 

[Agnaa]

What scenario are you asking about?

 

[Moritzva]

Weather Report, specifically. If the opponent has absolutely no way to resist, or snipe Weather Report before it activates.

 

[Agnaa]

I think it's a stomp, yeah. Getting passively instantly nulled+incapped is a stomp whether it works 66% of the time or 100% of the time.

 

[Moritzva]

I think it's a stomp, yeah. Getting passively instantly nulled incap is a stomp whether it works 66% of the time or 100% of the time.

Under the assumption that the opponent has absolutely nothing remotely relevant that impacts the fight, I agree.

 

[Agnaa]

MrKingOfNegativity responded to me about this over Discord. Here's what he said:

Alright, so I'm officially retired from VSBW as of the first of this month, and I really don't want to be bothered with this sort of thing anymore. But I skimmed through the thread you linked on my message wall, and the long and short of it is that I think what you've been told/are being told is bullshit. If it's a passive win more times than not, and the losing party has to rely on a lucky break where the power just doesn't work the way it's supposed to, then it's a stomp. The "chance" of it not working is irrelevant by that point.

 

[GyroNutz]

I agree with the OP. In the case of WR, even if 33% of the time where a character doesn't get passively haxed they have a decisive victory, there's zero point arguing that because at the end of the day they passively lose more times than not. That sort of match isn't notable whatsoever.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I agree with the OP. In the case of WR, even if 33% of the time where a character doesn't get passively haxed they have a decisive victory, there's zero point arguing that because at the end of the day they passively lose more times than not. That sort of match isn't notable whatsoever.

It being unnotable is different from it being a stomp, but I certainly understand your case for why such matches wouldn't be added to the profiles.