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Yeah, that's a topic I eventually want to make a thread for.Another thing we also need to see is the scale of the novel for the arc of war, and it is said that they are weaker there.
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Yeah, that's a topic I eventually want to make a thread for.Another thing we also need to see is the scale of the novel for the arc of war, and it is said that they are weaker there.
Yeah the weakened Quincy are still capable of fighting captain tier characters in the novels. So them scaling above start of arc captains makes perfect sense.Another thing we also need to see is the scale of the novel for the arc of war, and it is said that they are weaker there.
The crux of my point is that Yhwach doesn't say anything about needing a raw level of Reiatsu or power to be able to control Bankai. Nowhere does he say they're equals to the Bankai, which is how it is currently being treated.The crux of your point was the Ritter are weaker than the Bankai but I’ve debunked that with the fact that the Bankai were Hollowfied.
To further support the narrative of my point, early in the arc the Sternritter are revered as Captain+ level fighters.
Do you have any other points to indicate the Ritter are weaker than the Bankai?
He specifically notes he is capable of handling Yama’s power. Nothing about control, Yhwach can withstand Yama’s Bankai.The crux of my point is that Yhwach doesn't say anything about needing a raw level of Reiatsu or power to be able to control Bankai.
Read the Arrancar arc. Hollowfication amps stats it’s been stated over and over again. The “signs” was them one shotting Sternritter.The "Hollowified Bankai" show no signs or statements of recieving an amp. They were only Hollowified for a split-second in order to return to them to the control of the Shinigami. A split-second is a very short span of time.
We’ve had like 4 back and forths, I think you’re being way too hasty. Let some others read and reply, this doesn’t need to be settled in a couple hours. Have some patience.At this point we're going nowhere with this, so I'll call in some staff to make an evaluation.
I’ll bring some scans in a couple hours I’m in a car atm so I don’t got my scans on hand.I don't think the temporarily hollowfied Bankai provided any significant amp that can be considered as the sole reason for why BG9 and Cang got one shot.
My reasoning for this is because Urahara's intent with the tiny hollow pills was to damage the Sternritter and return the Bankai to their shinigami owners, not to provide an amp for them. The only one who received a noticable hollow-ish visual change was Hitsugaya and it wasn't even a proper hollow mask but a piece of ice covering his left eye.
Additionally, Urahara never mentions a relevant power amp as being an advantage of the hollow pills. He refers to them as a tiny bit of hollow power. In fact, we have reason to believe that Urahara would avoid trying to give them any kind of significant amp. In past instances of Hollow and Shinigami powers mixing, the results have been quite more noticable and Shinigami gaining hollow powers in particular has lead to them becoming very unstable initially, something which Urahara is aware of and isn't stupid enough to risk causing to captains during a conflict such as the second invasion.
He specifically notes he is capable of handling Yama’s power. Nothing about control, Yhwach can withstand Yama’s Bankai.
Just gonna point out that this is circular reasoning.Read the Arrancar arc. Hollowfication amps stats it’s been stated over and over again. The “signs” was them one shotting Sternritter.
My bad on that point I misremembered."But who else can control your immense power besides me?" - Yhwach
That statement alone, to me, is not sufficient proof that Yhwach's AP = Bankai Yama's AP.
No Hollowfication gives Bankai an unquantifiable amp because that’s how Hollowfication works. Not because the Ritter get one shot.Just gonna point out that this is circular reasoning.
Why did the Sternritter get one shot?
- Because the hollow pills gave the Bankai a Hollowfication level amp.
Why did the hollow pills give the Bankai a Hollowfication level amp?
- Because the Sternritter get one shot.
doesn’t change my stance tho, Yhwach is capable of controlling Yama’s Bankai in base hence he scales.
Yhwach goes on to fight Ichibe without taking any lethal damage, and Ichibe > Yama.
You called it a sign, but it can only be interpreted as that if the hypothesis about the tiny hollow pills giving an equal amp to Hollowfication is true, which most likely isn't the case for reasons I've stated in an earlier post.No Hollowfication gives Bankai an unquantifiable amp because that’s how Hollowfication works. Not because the Ritter get one shot.
The issue being that your argument isn’t supported and all the points you brought up about Bankai one shotting Sternritter are disingenuous. Why? Because they were partially Hollowfied, meaning they had an unquantifiable amp. Why? Because Hollowfying Shinigami or Shinigamifying Hollows provides an amp in power. I cite the entirety of the Arrancar arc.He should only scale to it when he is using Yama's Bankai. Just like how Yama, who can control his own Bankai, only scales to it when he is using his Bankai.
No I think you misunderstood my intended point.It's the other way around.
Ichibe > Yama, because Ichibe could put up a fight against Yhwach whereas Yama could not.
No I never said the pill was equal to full hollowfication.You called it a sign, but it can only be interpreted as that if the hypothesis about the tiny hollow pills giving an equal amp to Hollowfication is true, which most likely isn't the case for reasons I've stated in an earlier post.
The Sternritter getting one shot isn't necessarily pointing in the direction you think it is as them getting one shot doesn't become an inconsistency if the hollow pills don't give the Bankai any kind of relevant amp, as the base Sternritter being weaker than the Bankai is still a possibility which hasn't been refuted.
U can see toshiro get a partial hollow mask similar to ichigo vs byakuya and we know how that wentYou called it a sign, but it can only be interpreted as that if the hypothesis about the tiny hollow pills giving an equal amp to Hollowfication is true, which most likely isn't the case for reasons I've stated in an earlier post.
The Sternritter getting one shot isn't necessarily pointing in the direction you think it is as them getting one shot doesn't become an inconsistency if the hollow pills don't give the Bankai any kind of relevant amp, as the base Sternritter being weaker than the Bankai is still a possibility which hasn't been refuted.
The Ritter got beaten by a power stronger than the base Bankai, that’s not debatable, that’s just a matter of fact. Partial Hollowfied Bankai > Sternritter ~ Bankai. Not Partial Hollow Bankai = Bankai > Sternritter.
Answer this: how did Urahara return the Bankai?I don't agree. Soi-Fon showed no signs of Hollowfication when she used her Bankai on BG9.
This statement by Shunsui doesn't necessarily mean that Ichibe > Yamamoto when you actually look at the context behind it.Squad Zero > Gotei 13
Why their max fighting force? Nothing in the statement implies that.“The entire 13 Court Guard Squads” implies that Squad Zero is above Gotei 13’s max fighting force.
How does more important objective = higher power?Which makes narrative sense as Squad Zero are the protectors of God
Why their max fighting force? Nothing in the statement implies that.
That's... an extremely nitpicky way to look at things, to be blunt. "The entire gotei 13" would indeed entail their maximum fighting force because that's part of the entire gotei 13.Why their max fighting force? Nothing in the statement implies that.
How does more important objective = higher power?
Because it's 5 people above 10 captains, a captain level lieutenant (Hisagi), 8 lieutenants and all the fodder shinigami.still why would it be impressive to say that Zero squad are above the gotei at that time?
was part of the entire Gotei (at the time of the statement)That's... an extremely nitpicky way to look at things, to be blunt. "The entire gotei 13" would indeed entail their maximum fighting force because that's part of the entire gotei 13.
The word entire just means that it's including every member of the organization. Not that it's referring to a specific version of the organization that used to be the strongest.The word “entire” indicates such.
not to mention that, Byakuya and Zaraki were on the verge of death, the others were bankai less fodders, literally no one there is impressive except Retsu probablyYama consists of the majority of the Gotei’s power, the statement has clear intent to include Yama, or it is quite unimpressive. Like “oh boy yall are stronger than a group of people who got fodderized” albeit I feel this tangent is a bit derailing to the actual topic
Yama isn't included in the statement or alluded to by Shunsui is being made so I don't know what you're referring to when you say this.Yama consists of the majority of the Gotei’s power, the statement has clear intent to include Yama, or it is quite unimpressive. Like “oh boy yall are stronger than a group of people who got fodderized”
Not exactly relevant here? Just means that they're stronger than the entirety of the rest of the Gotei.was part of the entire Gotei (at the time of the statement)
Semantics, my good sir.The word entire just means that it's including every member of the organization. Not that it's referring to a specific version of the organization that used to be the strongest.
Entire is about inclusion of members into the equation, not recognition of different versions of the Gotei.Yama is alluded to via the word “entire”.
^Yhwach not breaking out Zanka no Tachi against Ichibe would imply Ichibe > Yama too. As the only reason he took a beating was to stall out until he got the Almighty to win. But if he had another win con there’d be no logical reason to not use it.
Tbh Kyoraku did infinitely better against Lille than the 4 non-Ichibei members of Squad Zero.It was implied in the previous arc that Ichigo can stomp Zaraki, Byakuya, Toshiro, Renji, and Ikakku iirc, why would it be impressive for Ichigo that 5 members can defeat Kyoraku, Ukitake, Retsu, and other bankai less fodders, like come on lol if I were Ichigo and Kyoraku told me that I would way stfu I solo stomp all of u too
Yhwach's Medallion was inked by Ichibe.Yhwach not breaking out Zanka no Tachi against Ichibe would imply Ichibe > Yama too. As the only reason he took a beating was to stall out until he got the Almighty to win. But if he had another win con there’d be no logical reason to not use it.