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- #121
Yeah, that's a topic I eventually want to make a thread for.
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Sternritter Profiles Revision [Bleach]
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
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Yeah the weakened Quincy are still capable of fighting captain tier characters in the novels. So them scaling above start of arc captains makes perfect sense.
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- #123
The crux of my point is that Yhwach doesn't say anything about needing a raw level of Reiatsu or power to be able to control Bankai. Nowhere does he say they're equals to the Bankai, which is how it is currently being treated.
Shinigami who can control their own Bankai aren't automatically scaled to their Bankai when they aren't using their Bankai.
The "Hollowified Bankai" show no signs or statements of recieving an amp. They were only Hollowified for a split-second in order to return to them to the control of the Shinigami. A split-second is a very short span of time.
The Sternritter being at the levels of Captains or higher is irrelevant. Even Vice-Captains have been called "Captain-class" fighters before, and that was without them using Bankai.
At this point we're going nowhere with this, so I'll call in some staff to make an evaluation.
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I don't think the temporarily hollowfied Bankai provided any significant amp that can be considered as the sole reason for why BG9 and Cang got one shot.
My reasoning for this is because Urahara's intent with the tiny hollow pills was to damage the Sternritter and return the Bankai to their shinigami owners, not to provide an amp for them. The only one who received a noticable hollow-ish visual change was Hitsugaya and it wasn't even a proper hollow mask but a piece of ice covering his left eye.
Additionally, Urahara never mentions a relevant power amp as being an advantage of the hollow pills. He refers to them as a tiny bit of hollow power. In fact, we have reason to believe that Urahara would avoid trying to give them any kind of significant amp. In past instances of Hollow and Shinigami powers mixing, the results have been quite more noticable and Shinigami gaining hollow powers in particular has lead to them becoming very unstable initially, something which Urahara is aware of and isn't stupid enough to risk causing to captains during a conflict such as the second invasion.
My reasoning for this is because Urahara's intent with the tiny hollow pills was to damage the Sternritter and return the Bankai to their shinigami owners, not to provide an amp for them. The only one who received a noticable hollow-ish visual change was Hitsugaya and it wasn't even a proper hollow mask but a piece of ice covering his left eye.
Additionally, Urahara never mentions a relevant power amp as being an advantage of the hollow pills. He refers to them as a tiny bit of hollow power. In fact, we have reason to believe that Urahara would avoid trying to give them any kind of significant amp. In past instances of Hollow and Shinigami powers mixing, the results have been quite more noticable and Shinigami gaining hollow powers in particular has lead to them becoming very unstable initially, something which Urahara is aware of and isn't stupid enough to risk causing to captains during a conflict such as the second invasion.
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He specifically notes he is capable of handling Yama’s power. Nothing about control, Yhwach can withstand Yama’s Bankai.
Read the Arrancar arc. Hollowfication amps stats it’s been stated over and over again. The “signs” was them one shotting Sternritter.
We’ve had like 4 back and forths, I think you’re being way too hasty. Let some others read and reply, this doesn’t need to be settled in a couple hours. Have some patience.
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I’ll bring some scans in a couple hours I’m in a car atm so I don’t got my scans on hand.
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- Thread starter
- #127
"But who else can control your immense power besides me?" - Yhwach
That statement alone, to me, is not sufficient proof that Yhwach's AP = Bankai Yama's AP.
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Just gonna point out that this is circular reasoning.
Why did the Sternritter get one shot?
- Because the hollow pills gave the Bankai a Hollowfication level amp.
Why did the hollow pills give the Bankai a Hollowfication level amp?
- Because the Sternritter got one shot.
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My bad on that point I misremembered.
doesn’t change my stance tho, Yhwach is capable of controlling Yama’s Bankai in base hence he scales.
Yhwach goes on to fight Ichibe without taking any lethal damage, and Ichibe > Yama.
No Hollowfication gives Bankai an unquantifiable amp because that’s how Hollowfication works. Not because the Ritter get one shot.
I argue that Hollowfying a Bankai gave them an amp because throughout the ENTIRE series that’s how Hollowfication has been explained. Them beating the Sternritter is a product of that and proves it so.
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- #131
Fair enough if that's your stance, but I still disagree.
He should only scale to it when he is using Yama's Bankai. Just like how Yama, who can control his own Bankai, only scales to it when he is using his Bankai.
It's the other way around.
Ichibe > Yama, because Ichibe could put up a fight against Yhwach whereas Yama could not.
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Arc seems to be making more sense so I go with him
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You called it a sign, but it can only be interpreted as that if the hypothesis about the tiny hollow pills giving an equal amp to Hollowfication is true, which most likely isn't the case for reasons I've stated in an earlier post.
The Sternritter getting one shot isn't necessarily pointing in the direction you think it is as them getting one shot doesn't become an inconsistency if the hollow pills don't give the Bankai any kind of relevant amp, as the base Sternritter being weaker than the Bankai is still a possibility which hasn't been refuted.
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The issue being that your argument isn’t supported and all the points you brought up about Bankai one shotting Sternritter are disingenuous. Why? Because they were partially Hollowfied, meaning they had an unquantifiable amp. Why? Because Hollowfying Shinigami or Shinigamifying Hollows provides an amp in power. I cite the entirety of the Arrancar arc.
Your other point is “just because Yhwach can control Yama’s Bankai’s power doesn’t mean he scales” which has no support.
No I think you misunderstood my intended point.
Squad Zero > Gotei 13
Nearly all of their respective power lies within Ichibe and Yama. The others are more relative to just Sternritter.
Which would imply Ichibe > Yama.
Yhwach was able to tussle with Ichibe without any fatal wounds. Yhwach can also control Bankai Yama’s power.
So we have a statement that indicates Yhwach is on Bankai Yama tier and then he fights a character above that realm of power without dying. It’s highly consistent.
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No I never said the pill was equal to full hollowfication.
For the nth time, it’s an unquantifiable amp, yet an amp nonetheless. So to then claim “the Ritter got one shot by the Bankai” is plain false.
The Ritter got beat by partially Hollowfied Bankai. If you want an example of partial Hollowfication reread Ichigo vs Byakuya.
The Ritter got beaten by a power stronger than the base Bankai, that’s not debatable, that’s just a matter of fact. Partial Hollowfied Bankai > Sternritter ~ Bankai. Not Partial Hollow Bankai = Bankai > Sternritter.
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U can see toshiro get a partial hollow mask similar to ichigo vs byakuya and we know how that went
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- Thread starter
- #138
I don't agree. Soi-Fon showed no signs of Hollowfication when she used her Bankai on BG9.
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Answer this: how did Urahara return the Bankai?
Spoiler alert: he partially Hollowfied the Bankai.
Soifon doesn’t need visible indicators when it’s flat out stated.
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This statement by Shunsui doesn't necessarily mean that Ichibe > Yamamoto when you actually look at the context behind it.
The statement was said in chapter 516, which is right after the first invasion of Seireitei.
You need to consider the state the Gotei 13 is in at the time of the statement.
- Yamamoto is dead.
- Kenpachi and Byakuya are in critical condition at the time, as stated earlier in the previous chapter:
So all the Squad Zero > Gotei 13 statement means is that the 5 SZ members are stronger collectively than the post-first invasion Gotei without Yamamoto, Kenpachi and Byakuya (three of the strongest captains) and also Rukia and Renji (a captain class shinigami).
I don't see how the statement confirms Ichibe > Yama when Yama wasn't even necessarily part of the equation.
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Why their max fighting force? Nothing in the statement implies that.
How does more important objective = higher power?
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The word “entire” indicates such.
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That's... an extremely nitpicky way to look at things, to be blunt. "The entire gotei 13" would indeed entail their maximum fighting force because that's part of the entire gotei 13.
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Because it's 5 people above 10 captains, a captain level lieutenant (Hisagi), 8 lieutenants and all the fodder shinigami.
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was part of the entire Gotei (at the time of the statement)
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The word entire just means that it's including every member of the organization. Not that it's referring to a specific version of the organization that used to be the strongest.
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not to mention that, Byakuya and Zaraki were on the verge of death, the others were bankai less fodders, literally no one there is impressive except Retsu probably
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Yama isn't included in the statement or alluded to by Shunsui is being made so I don't know what you're referring to when you say this.
It may sound unimpressive to your standards, but that's not evidence.
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Not exactly relevant here? Just means that they're stronger than the entirety of the rest of the Gotei.
Semantics, my good sir.
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It was implied in the previous arc that Ichigo can stomp Zaraki, Byakuya, Toshiro, Renji, and Ikakku iirc, why would it be impressive for Ichigo that 5 members can defeat Kyoraku, Ukitake, Retsu, and other bankai less fodders, like come on lol if I were Ichigo and Kyoraku told me that I would way stfu I solo stomp all of u too
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Entire is about inclusion of members into the equation, not recognition of different versions of the Gotei.
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Tbh Kyoraku did infinitely better against Lille than the 4 non-Ichibei members of Squad Zero.
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- #160
Yhwach's Medallion was inked by Ichibe.
He presumably couldn't use it after that.
Also Yhwach is the walking definition of Character Induced Stupidity if you happen to believe he can use all of the Sternritter Schrifts yet also not use them against any opponent. So saying he didn't use Yama's Bankai only because it wouldn't have helped is just wrong.
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