Star Wars Revision?

[The_Everlasting]

We should preferably not upgrade any characters to Universe level due to an apparent unquantifiable hyperbole statement, when none of their feats are remotely of that scale.

I could understand it being considered unquantifiable, but how the heck would it be hyperbole? It's blatantly stated that all Force energy in the universe flows through Mortis, and that it acts as both a magnet and amplifier for it.

Also, the Ones already don't have feats period, their current rankings rely on powerscaling, for both Canon and Legends. So not accepting this due to their feats not coming close to it is an extremely poor idea.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, perhaps I choose the wrong words, but all force energy in the universe should not automatically be interpreted as synonymous with blowing up and creating universes.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

After a brief skimming of the Wookiepedia article on The Force, it seems to be at least Galaxy level, but with what the others said, I can see it being Universal.

"Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." - Obi Wan Kenobi.

 

[Antvasima]

The energy within all living beings should not logically automatically reach anywhere near galaxy level either. We need some explicit proof for that it can destroy or create entire galaxies, or comparative feats/statements.

 

[Drellix]

I support this.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

That's merly Obi-Wan's perspective on the Force. His description is just a way of him explaining it to someone who doesn't know what it is.

The Force is vastly more complicated (or simpler than some people think) and even Hop has not figured out what it is meant to be. Email Lucas, idunno.

 

[Antvasima]

So should I close this thread, or are there still remaining issues to be talked about?

 

[Aparajita]

So should I close this thread, or are there still remaining issues to be talked about?

The thread has not been concluded and i would appreciate if it remains open for the time being.

My reasonings for the upgrade are as follows, will post here for anyone new to the thread.

Plagueis is called the strongest Sith Lord (this is before Sidious). Plagueis is Sidious' teacher and is superior to Vitate. Plagueis nearly freezes Naboo just by his mere prescence on the planet. Plagueis > Vitate, Sidious >>>>>>> Plagueis, so Sidious >>>>>>>>>>> Vitate, meaning that Sidious and everyone he scales to, Luke, Vader, etc and whatnot should be improved.

Understand that Plagueis is betrayed and killed by Sidious in 52 BBY and Revenge of the Sith happens in 19 BBY. Plagueis is superior to Vitate 37 years before Revenge of the Sith.

 

[Antvasima]

We will need specific proof for scaling them to each level, and cannot give characters far higher ratings based on your personal opinions/preferences regarding that one of them should be a specific amount enormously superior to another.

 

[Aparajita]

We will need specific proof for scaling them to each level, and cannot give characters far higher ratings based on your personal opinions/preferences regarding that one of them should be a specific amount enormously superior to another.

Tenebrous, Plagueis' master, was regarded as one of the "chief architects" of the Republic's Fall and the defeat of the Jedi Order. This Order of the Sith Lords created, with each generation, a Sith far stronger. Here is what Terebrous, Sidious, and Plagueis say about the Order:

"We are the select few who refuse to be carried by the Force, and who carry it instead. Thirty in a millennium, rather than the tens of thousands fit to be Jedi." - (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Plagueis_(novel))

Now, that being said, Tenebrous hated, despised his apprentance for their differences in views. Tenebrous believed that the Rule of Two should continue, while Plagueis believed that the Rule was over, and the two Sith should work together in all that they do.

When Sidious became the Sith Lord, "A Tremor took hold of the planet. Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the World's Core, and radiating through, it saccharine atsmophere to shake the stars themselves." - PG 1, Plagueis. Sidious has just killed Plagueis and inherited all of the Dark Side energy that Plagueis had taken from Tenebrous and every Sith Lord before them.

Plagueis was called, by the one who hated him the most (Tenebrous), that he was "the grand design of the Order of the Sith Lords, greater than any who came before them" this includes knowledge of Sith Lords like Exar Kun, Ragnos, and Lord Vitate. How do we know it contains Vitate?

Sidious and Plagueis has a talk about "The Lord Vitate, who could drain a planet of life"

This means that, 30 years BEFORE REVENGE OF THE SITH, before Anakin fought Obi Wan, before Sidious destroyed the Republic, Plagueis was superior to Vitate.

This means that Sidious should eclispe Vitate by a *much* further amount. Does this make sense to you?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, "shaking the stars themselves" is most likely flowery language allegorical hyperbole, and just because Sidious was stronger than his teacher, who was stronger than the preceding teacher, does not mean thst we can assign specific enormously higher power levels to him.

I think that the Star Wars power ratings seem to be safest to keep where they are.

 

[Aparajita]

Well, "shaking the stars themselves" is most likely flowery language allegorical hyperbole

Except, there's this in this novel that talks about Corusaunt shaking from it's "first" "groundquake" in "years", only days before Palpatine was elected. Unless it went from "literal, literal, literal, hyperbole", which is highly unlikely. As an author, i don't write, "Nothing could shake Alex, not the shaking of the ground, the rumble of the volcano, or the destruction of the universe" that's just silly.

I did not state that we're going to scale an enormously higher level of power to anyone. Sidious is comparable to Luke, who managed to harm Abeloth with the help of a Sith Lord who was a joke compared to the Lords that Luke had faced (Sidious and Exar Kun). Unless you think Krayt was enough to empower Luke to harm Abeloth, in which Krayt needs to be increased for remotely harming a character two tiers higher than him (6-A is Krayt, while Abeloth is 4-C), then Luke and his enemies (Sidious, empowered Exar Kun) need to be improved.

Krayt managed to add *some* Dark Side energy to help Luke, but not nearly enough that Luke would have been instantly destroyed fighting Abeloth alone.

What i am saying is that Sidious, and Luke by extension, is being downplayed by being the same tier as a character they're vastly, stupidly superior to.

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain. There is an enormous distance between 5-C and 5-A.

What do you think The Everlasting? You seemed to favour "At least Low 5-B" earlier.

 

[Archnyx]

Personally, I don't think Sidious was vastly more powerful than Vitate.

My reasoning is thus:

a) Vitate was not a proponent of the Rule of Two hence, he should not be held to the same standard as it.

b) Between the time of Vitate and Bane a lot of the Sith's knowledge and techniques were lost. As Kreia stated, "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters."

All-in-all, I feel the disparity in knowledge and the ability to acquire said knowledge, leaves scaling rather difficult.

With regards to star-level feats, I do recall Aleema Keto causing the supernova of ten stars in the Cron Cluster, with the help of Sith crystals and magic, by ripping their cores straight out of them.

What this means for scaling purposes, I don't really know - I'll leave that for further discussion.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Archnyx brings up some very good points regarding the Plagueis statement.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Thank you for the help.

 

[Aparajita]

Archnyx brings up some very good points regarding the Plagueis statement.

Archnyx brought up good points, yes. However, Kreia is by no means an effective source.

Luke fought Exar Kun's spirit after it had been gaining powers since his physical defeat and called it "the greatest threat *since* Sidious", in Dark Empire..

Exar Kun was recognized by the Ancient Sith Lords as the true heir to the Sith (and was proclaimed as such by Marka Ragnos himself) in comparison to Vitiate who is shunned and hated by the Ancients - and guess who Vitiate's former master used to be? Marka Ragnos.

I'm not buying it.

There's no way Luke is only simply a bit stronger than Vitate. Darth Krayt's energy he was giving Luke should not have made much of a difference. Luke fought Krayt and destroyed him. There's no way Krayt's energy would impact the fight vs Abeloth in any noticable way.

With the Orb Armor, several community sites seem to think that Bane would defeat Vitiate in a fight, if Bane could resist Vitiate's mind rape. I understand we shouldn't trust other sites for their legitimaticy...

There's also the issue that almost the entire Bane Line (the members of the Rule of Two), learned the secrets of the Masters that came before them. Many secrets were lost, then refounded, especially under Plagueis, Tenebrous, Tenebrous' Master, and later Sidious and Tyrannus.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that there is an energy difference of 91389.62 times between the start of tier 5-C and the start of tier 5-A.

 

[Archnyx]

I'm a tad confused. I thought the main topic was comparing Vitiate and Sidious. Why are we focusing on Luke?

 

[DavideKirby]

We also can add Master Qui-Gon Jinn who is 6A,comparable to Darth Maul and Obi-Wan!

 

[SaiyanSage]

Following the notion of the Rule of Two- the apprentice must overthrow the master. And given the depiction of Plagueis vs Sidious at the end of the Darth Plageuis novel, Plageuis lost only on pride rather through power (though Plageuis noted that the ways of the Sith had changed from power focused to more economical and inlfuential in politics). However Sidious, I assume, is mainly Small Planet-based from his Force Storm ability which was demonstrated in the Dark Empire comics (set roughly six years after ROTJ).

 

[Qawsedf234]

> Except, there's this in this novel that talks about Corusaunt shaking from it's "first" "groundquake" in "years", only days before Palpatine was elected. Unless it went from "literal, literal, literal, hyperbole", which is highly unlikely. As an author, i don't write, "Nothing could shake Alex, not the shaking of the ground, the rumble of the volcano, or the destruction of the universe" that's just silly.


Do you have the page number?

 

[Lina_Shields]

From the Darth Plagueis novels, immediately after Palpatine kills Plagueis, something happens to the nearby stars as well, from what I have heard (the stars seem to fade out or something like that)

I am unsure if it is a figure of speed, but that is what I have hears from OBD anyways.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I know his force storms can destroy capital ships and the surface of planets and he's more poweful than Vitate who did this and Darth Nihilus who did the same . I also think the RotS novel gave him either lightspeed or relavstic combat speed based off of this passage. Although while it could be just flowery languge, previously in the novel Anakin did a relativistic space maneuver and Sidious was still blur to him.


@Lina Shields


I think this is the passage

A tremor took hold of the planet.

Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world's core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake's epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn't constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.


There's more, but it would fill the page. Here's an RT with the passage just Control + F "Sidious becomes more powerful with Plagueis's death:"

 

[Lina_Shields]

it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world's core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves.

If this quote is true (assuming it is not flowery language), this would definitely solidify Palpatine's tiering, if not make it higher.

This would mean that right after Plagueis' death, Sidious' force powers were strong enough to release a wave that could affect entire stars at great distances.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think a big crux of the arugment hinges on the book @Aparajita linked. If I can get a page number I can take a screen shot of the passage. Since if there really was a earth/groundquake on Coruscant that means that Sidious's power had a tangiable effect on the planet. Meaning the messing with stars part might not be just a hyperbole.

 

[Lina_Shields]

The earth/ground quake on Coruscant is significant, but the fact that the "wave" can affect star that are light-years away is the highlight of that passage.

• Considering that a star is usually much, much bigger than Earth, and Palpatine's force powers were able to affect something of that size from light years away.

I will notify Everlasting and Hop regarding this thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You're right. I just think the book is important since it proves that the passage isn't just flowery language/hyperboles.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"Shaking the stars themselves" sounds fairly hyperbolic/outlier-y/flowery.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with The Everlasting.

 

[SaiyanSage]

"Shaking the stars themselves" sounds fairly hyperbolic/outlier-y/flowery.

Perhaps but there is some kind of truth in it ("There's always a bit of truth in legends") but it does show insight of Plageuis' influence in the Force, perhaps not neccessarily his own power per say.

 

[Antvasima]

So, are there still issues to be discussed here, or can we close this thread?

 

[Lina_Shields]

So, shaking the Earth

• Is nowhere near Small Planet level.
• Palpatine already scales to Vitiate, and has been stated as the strongest sith lord in the Palpatine respect thread.

So, perhaps Palpatine's profile should remain as it is if he is not being upgraded.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I agree with @Lina. Palpatine is fine where he is.

Also, aren't the strongest quakes only High 6-B?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I agree with @Lina. Palpatine is fine where he is.
Also, aren't the strongest quakes only High 6-B?

Strongest ones in history are in the Petaton level. Dunno if they're 6-A or High 6-A, though.

 

[SaiyanSage]

So this is the way I see it: Plageuis is already compared to Vitiate Post-Nathema ritual (which makes him Moon level: 5-C) and nothing really contradicts this point. Plus given the beginning of the novel where Sidious kills and absorbs his master's power, that should be a point of making him Small Planet level as well (not the best logic but: two moons equal a small planet).

My answer: Plagueis should be 5-C, more than likely higher since he does scale with Sidious per the Sith's Rule of Two in power and skill.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

^ I disagree with that stacking and the notion that Sidious absorbed Plagueis's power (something else happened which is rather complicated to explain) but I do agree that Plagueis should indeed be in the 5-C tier at least. The Plagueis novel explicitly states that Plagueis and Sidious are the two most powerful Sith Lords in history and both are more than a match for "the best of the Jedi" (a statement Palpatine himself makes when meeting Windu and Yoda once outside the Coruscant Senate building). It's been a while since I've read that novel but from what I remember, Plagueis and Sidious are portrayed as being in the same league overall. Plagueis should scale to the likes of TPM Sidious in my opinion.

 

[SaiyanSage]

^ Hm, I was pretty sure that Sidious absorbed Plagueis' power... Since Plageuis did something similar to his master when he died.

But nonetheless we're on the same page with at least 5-C for Plageuis.

 

[Lina_Shields]

It still bothers me that the wave of Force energy of thay caliber (with the affecting stars/Earth shaking) was released by Palpatine right after Plagueis had died.

Going by sequence of events, it means that Palpatine became the strongest Sith Lord in history right after Plagueis' death.

There is insufficient proof that Plagueis = Palpatine after killing Plagueis.