Star Wars Revision?

[Aparajita]

In this thread i will discuss my suggestions for the changes for the Star Wars universe based off some of the more obscure characters in Star Wars, namely Darth Plagueis and Darth Tenebrous. In order to discuss the changes, a small backstory needs to be understood. This starts with Darth Bane, the founder of the Order of the Sith Lords.

Darth Bane was a very powerful Sith Lord who created the Order of the Sith Lords based off the Rule of Two. This Rule pretty much means that the Apprentence who eventually defeats their master must be more powerful, to ensure that the Order is filled with only the strongest of these Sith Lords.

Darth Plagueis was the cullination of the entire effort of the Sith Lords, the supposed Sith Lord who would bring about the End of the Republic (Before he was murdered by Sidious.)

Darth Plagueis was cited by Darth Tenebrous as being "the strongest Sith Lord to ever exist.", Darth Sidious and Plagueis both called Plagueis the strongest Sith Lord, and the "wisest Sith Lord"

Now. Tenebrous despised Plagueis, fearing that his apprentence would (correctly) kill him. So Tenebrous had no reason to lie about Plagueis powers, while Sidious, who was apprentenced under Plagueis, had "powers beyond his comprehension."

Now, about the Order of the Sith Lords - it had studies and teachings from all the great Dark Lords, Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, and Lord Vitate.

This means that the Order of the Sith Lords had teachings and knowledge of those who came before them, including Vitate. Does that mean that Plagueis is, by chance, stronger than Vitate was?


Plagueis was Superior to Sidious at the time of his death, losing because of overconfidence and naivity, not because of Sidious' strength.

However, Plagueis was cited at being "the most power Sith Lord to ever live", this includes the Order of the Sith Lords (prior ro Sidious) and the Dark Lords of the Sith, like Exar, Freedon, and Vitate. This means that Plagueis is scalable to Vitate's feat, because in the Force your connection = your strength, nothing more and nothing less. No amount of Training will make a Jedi stronger than a Sith who has a stronger connection (i.e Midiclorians) and vice versa. This means that, pre-revenge of the Sith Plagueis is scalable to Sidious.

Which means that many other characters in the verse should, by extension, be as strong as Vitate. Sidious at Revenge of the Sith, should be as strong as Vitate.

That i'm proposing is a static upward change for some of the high tiers like Yoda, Dooku, Anakin, and Windu and some upgrades towards the higher end of the spectrum.

As it is now, Sidious in Dark Empire is *hugely* superior to Vitate, and this Plagueis confirmation merely ensures that we know exactly how large.

So, i propose upgrading Sidious to 5-B or perhaps 5-A and everyone else shifted in the upwards direction.

 

[Sirius_The_EM_Troll]

Yeah, but not by much.

 

[Aparajita]

Yeah, but not by much.

Agreed. But i'll wait until others agree/disagree to finish the thought.

 

[Sirius_The_EM_Troll]

I think if one was to measure them similar to the 6/10/15 DBZ thing, I would say Vitiate is an 8, Plagueis is a 10, and Sidious is a 15-20

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Looks good to me.

 

[Aparajita]

Bump

 

[Aldrecht]

Sounds Reasonable.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

hmmmmm I can support this. It makes sense

 

[Antvasima]

What changes exactly are being proposed?

 

[Aparajita]

What changes exactly are being proposed?

At the moment, nothing. Just discussing if the logic that is being used is understandable

Should Plagueis be stronger than Vitate?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I do not personally have an opinion though. I am not well informed about Star Wars.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

I don't know, but it is true that each Sith is (or should be) stronger and/or wiser than their master before them. That is how they become better and better, and good enough to take on several Jedi by themselves even with disadvantage of numbers and other factors.

Logically it makes complete sense, and I say we can accept that Plagueis and Vitate are nearly the same in terms of Tier, since the gap between the one below and above Tier 6-A is pretty large. But using the logic, it might be a small difference, but still tangible enough to see who would win in a fight, since its perfectly fine to assume that Plagueis contains all the knowledge and power of the Sith and masters before him. Personally I like to think that most of them are as strong as stated, but it greatly depends on what the canon says, as I am unfamiliar with Vitate's character when it comes to details and feats.

 

[Aparajita]

So... i'll chalk that up as a support.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

It is.

 

[Aparajita]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if you do not want to change anything per se, I do not know why you need support?

 

[Aparajita]

Well, if you do not want to change anything per se, I do not know why you need support?

The last time i did a well founded argument, it was tossed out the window for reasons. This time around, i'm going to garner the support before i state the changes.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you will probably have to state the suggested changes first, I'm afraid. Othervise, I do not know if this is important enough to highlight for community input.

 

[Aparajita]

Well, you will probably have to state the suggested changes first, I'm afraid. Othervise, I do not know if this is important enough to highlight for community input.

Edited.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I don't see how becoming stronger to an unquantifiable degree would warrant Large Planet level to small planet level entities?

 

[Antvasima]

That is a good point.

 

[Volundox]

Well doesn't dark empire take place after the events of return of the Jedi? in that case if this upgrade happens then it should be an extra key and the current EU key should specify power at the time of return of the Jedi. I'd keep the power of Windu and Yoda at their current power levels since they should be comparable to retuen of the Jedi Sidious. Anakin should be kept at the same, since current Vader should be slightly superior to Anakin and he is rated at multi-continental. Dooku should stay around the same level since he should be comparable to Maul and other Jedi council members of the period. Upgrading sidious to 5A would be rather arbitrary since no force user has any feats around the 5A apart from naga sadow, who used extensive rituals.

Onto Plageuis, I dont think we need more input from people more experienced with star wars such as the everlasting since i really don't know about this. The OBD took this suggestion if that has any bearing on the situation, and they have plagueis at moon level.

Onto Sidious, we need more input to discern whether he is that much superior to vitiate in dark empire.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask The Everlasting to give input here if you wish.

 

[Volundox]

I've asked.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'll still need to formulate an opinion on this, but I think that, if this goes through, "At least Low 5-B" will be used, to be safe.

Also, I was rewatching the Mortis trilogy yesterday, and it has an... interesting bit of dialogue.

"I don't understand. What is this place?"

"Unlike any other. A conduit through which the entire Force of the universe flows."

So yeah, Mortis, even in-canon, is the conduit for all Force in the universe, as opposed to only the galaxy.

Then there's this part.

"Are we in danger?"

"This planet is both an amplifier and a magnet. Three are here who seek Skywalker. They, like me, believe him to be the Chosen One."

And considering how both the Son and Daughter could withstand Anakin exerting Mortis' energy on them, and have harmed each other... you can guess where this would go.

 

[Aparajita]

Understand that Plagueis, who is lightyears below Sidious, was Continent level from his mere prescence on Naboo.

Plagueis should be, at the end of his life, at least 5-C at his peak, as he's cited at being stronger than any Sith Lord to ever live. That would include Vitate.

Which means that Sidious *cannot* be simply Low 5-B. If anything, he must be much stronger than we orginally believed.

My proposed change is to push Sidious, Luke, and those scalable to this at Dark Empire time to "At least 5-B, likely higher", for both being vastly superior to both Vitate and Plagueis.

Plagueis should be 5-C at his Peak.

Vader should be stronger than he is due to the 80% statement, perhaps Low 5-C.

Darth Krayt, for assisting Luke with harming Abeloth should be higher, but where is beyond me.

This support the opinion that the Force is Omnipresent. The Son and Daughter should be higher due to the statements, and Anakin (while boosted by Mortis) should get his own tab.

What about Luke's feats for telekenticially resisting a Black Hole and being able to physically resist the pull of it?

 

[Promestein]

Low 5-C isn't even a thing, it's either High 6-A or 5-C.

"What about Luke's feats for telekenticially resisting a Black Hole and being able to physically resist the pull of it?"

Black hole feats! Unquantifiable.

 

[Aparajita]

Black hole feats! Unquantifiable.

What i'm saying is that it puts more evidence towards a higher tier of Star Wars characters than we've been currently using.

 

[Promestein]

Not really, because lower tier characters do that sort of thing constantly, and most black hole feats mean nothing.

 

[LordXcano]

Low 5-C isn't even a thing, it's either High 6-A or 5-C.
"What about Luke's feats for telekenticially resisting a Black Hole and being able to physically resist the pull of it?"

Black hole feats! Unquantifiable.

Well first off it'd be FTL minimum and second off you're assuming he was inside the black hole. As long as he isn't touching the event horizon it'd just be some form of relativistic speed and (I assume) quantifiable.

 

[Promestein]

This isn't speed, though, this seems to suggest, physically resisting through (telekinetic) strength alone, which shouldn't be quantifiable.

Besides, Luke's already Relativistic+ with FTL+ reactions

 

[The_Everlasting]

I don't mean to sound rude, but I did kinda post quotes that might suggest Universe level Ones of Mortis.

 

[Promestein]

I don't know enough about Star Wars to comment on the validity of them, though it seems a solid possibility.

 

[Aparajita]

In Dark Tide; Ruin, Luke uses the Force to stop the rotation of a Black Hole and causes it to rotate in the opposite direction.

 

[Aparajita]

I don't mean to sound rude, but I did kinda post quotes that might suggest Universe level Ones of Mortis.

I... commented on that, Everlasting. I agreed with all points.

 

[Promestein]

In Dark Tide; Ruin, Luke uses the Force to stop the rotation of a Black Hole and causes it to rotate in the opposite direction.

I'm certain this is totally unquantifiable, though I'm not sure if black holes work like that in the first place, so.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I don't mean to sound rude, but I did kinda post quotes that might suggest Universe level Ones of Mortis.

I... commented on that, Everlasting. I agreed with all points.

Ack, sorry, missed that part of your comment.

 

[Aparajita]

Ack, sorry, missed that part of your comment.

Universal+ (Magnet and AMP) Mortis... i could agree to that.

 

[Antvasima]

We should preferably not upgrade any characters to Universe level due to an apparent unquantifiable hyperbole statement, when none of their feats are remotely of that scale. Also, yes, escaping supposed black holes is generally unquantifiable.