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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends

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I disagree about the Mary Sue argument, Rey is a pretty wet blanket sure but a Mary Sue she is not,

I think the problem is that many people confuse overpowered with Mary Sue/Gary Stu, and that's a fair criticism to make, but they are not the same thing.

this is a good video that highlights some of the narrative aspects to what a Mary Sue actually is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-GIY9RTqU

however my problem with Rey as of now is that she suffers from the same problem as Ichigo Kurosaki, she is a reactive protagonist with a generic hero's tale and her character ARC is completed by the second film in the trilogy.

which is why I actually find Kylo to be a far better character, in fact, im willing to suggest that Kylo is one of the best-written star wars characters in the context of the films
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
I disagree about the Mary Sue argument, Rey is a pretty wet blanket sure but a Mary Sue she is not,
I think the problem is that many people confuse overpowered with Mary Sue/Gary Stu, and that's a fair criticism to make, but they are not the same thing.

this is a good video that highlights some of the narrative aspects to what a Mary Sue actually is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-GIY9RTqU

however my problem with Rey as of now is that she suffers from the same problem as Ichigo Kurosaki, she is a reactive protagonist with a generic hero's tale and her character ARC is completed by the second film in the trilogy.

which is why I actually find Kylo to be a far better character, in fact, im willing to suggest that Kylo is one of the best-written star wars characters in the context of the films
Click to expand...
I disagree immensely.

Being overpowered, which Rey definitely is, is a trait of being a Mary Sue especially when it isn't explained why, but it isn't all there is to a Mary Sue, and it isn't the only trait of a Mary Sue that Rey has.

Here's a pretty good video that goes over whether or not every single trilogy protagonist is a Mary Sue, with basic guidelines to what being a Mary Sue is. And how each protagonist applies to said guidelines.


And comparing Ichigo to Rey is wrong for a simple reason, Ichigo has a specific goal and Rey does not.

Ichigo solely cares about his family and his close friends, he even tells Rukia as such at the beginning of the series. He's a reactive protagonist because all is good in his life (when he's not struggling with his depression) until someone takes or endangers the life of his family members and friends. It's a simple goal, but it is a goal and one that is quite believable, especially when taking into account the reason he is like this, the death of his mother. That event catapults Ichigo to do the things that he does and gives him a foundation of a character, whether that character is done well or is any good is mostly based on people's subjective opinions, however.

Rey, on the other hand, doesn't even have that. She's brought along for the ride, and is only continuing along because she feels like "she's doing what she thinks is right". "Doing the right thing" isn't a concrete goal, it's anathema to such a thing as it is perfectly abstract. Why does she want to this? We are shown in The Last Jedi that there is no reason, that she has no past and that she is doing this just because it's right. What other goals does she have? Nothing, she is actively wanting others "to show me my place" in the world, instead of discovering it out on her own. There is no character to be found when deconstructing Rey, she's more like a void of character. She is as much a wound in character writing as Darth Nihilus is a wound in the Force. Which I remember, before The Last Jedi, there was a theory that I liked that made such a comparison.

Kylo, while I would never say he is one of the best characters in the franchise, at least has the foundations of a character and is just objectively better overall.
 
you can have traits of a serial killer like being a psychopath but that doesn't make you a Serial Killer, and once again which is why I pointed to the video earlier, Mary Sue isn't some archetype that characters fall into contrary to what many think, it's just the result of bad writing, a character is defined as Mary Sue when the entire plot, internal logic, and characters personalities and reality change to Glorify the protagonist, it's an effect moreso than an archetype

Yes and Rey being compared with Ichigo is a perfect analogy

They are Both Reactive

Ichigo's driving Goal is to protect his friends and family

Rey's Driving goal is to protect the Resistance

Ichigo wants to protect his friends and family because of the connection that they have, be it because of their bonds or the result of his mother death

Rey wants to protect the Resistance because of her emotional connection to it, via Finn and Han Solo, a bond that is formed throughout TFA, it's heavily highlighted by the fact that Finn is willing to sacrifice and wing the Resistance's plan to save Rey and even protect her against Kylo and vice versa thus the story establishes that they have bonded and empathy for one another is created. which is highlighted by her "we will see each other again" her emotional response to Han Solo's death and the fact that she criticizes Luke by saying "our FRIENDS are dying" meaning that she's obviously invested in them on emotional level, meaning the fact that she doesn't want someone she cares about to die is already enough of a justification for her to do the things she does.

"Doing the right thing" isn't a concrete goal, it's anathema to such a thing as it is perfectly abstract"

yes it can and has been a Goal, just because it isn't something physical doesn't take away from its effectiveness, there are characters that are completely driven by ideology and "Doing the right thing" falls into that category, to say this is the mark of a bad character trait is to ignore a lot of well written and great characters. one can argue that it's an extremely vanilla and boring motivator but it is a motivator none the less.

she is actively wanting others "to show me my place" in the world, instead of discovering it out on her own.

that's the whole point of her character arc, it's literally one of the most common tropes in the reluctant hero archetype.

In TFA the lightsaber is the call to action, she refuses to take it and ends up getting captured and retroactively getting Han Solo killed and Finn Injured, she eventually does take it and brings it to Luke, thus completing the first step in her Monomyth.

in TLJ we are given the broader theme of her arc that plays with her reluctant hero archetype, she refuses to be the hero of the story and her entire plan resides on the idea that Luke will take the saber and be the hero and Save the day, as we all know this plan fails, so after her force skype session with Kylo ren her goal post shifts and now Kylo must be the hero that saves the day as evident by her "he is our last hope" comment,however her entire plan is dictated by the fact that Kylo will turn, which she seems to be so confident about, despite never having dealt with something like this and having a lot of logical reasons not to trust Kylo, this highlights her flaws of being Naive, arrogant and optimistic to a fault. after all this, her plan once again fails when Kylo does not join her, this is where the revelation comes that she needs to be the Hero of the story, because at this point if she doesn't do it no one will, and this is an ideology that's perfectly consistent with her character. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

her character arc comes to a climax by the end of TLJ where she lifts the rocks to save the resistance, thus literally becoming the hero of the story. she does this actively of her own freewill

instead of trying to be the catalyst to solve the problem she becomes a character that actively tries to solve the problem.

thus she has active progression and an arc.

an argument can be made that the arc is generic and boring or executed horrendously but to say there's nothing is Innacurate
 
"Here's a pretty good video that goes over whether or not every single trilogy protagonist is a Mary Sue, with basic guidelines to what being a Mary Sue is"

also, the video you posted about showing how the Trilogy characters measure in the Mary Sue level is objectively flawed and falls apart under a little bit of scrutinization

the video intentionally takes things out of context while also withholding crucial information to the detriment of the characters and having self contradicting points that are a showcase of doubled standards.

to have double standards is to be biased and to be biased is to not be objective thus his narrative of looking at things objectively falls apart.

would you like me to deconstruct it?

the reason im asking is because things like these can be tiresome for both participants when debating and some might just not want to continue talking about a topic they have no interest in
 
I do feel like people sometimes forget that a big core thing about a Mary Sue archetype is how the plot behaves in regards to them. They must be at the center of it and other characters typically or intentionally get under represented to make the Sue look more important. The trilogy just doesn't revolve heavily enough around Rey for her to be a Mary Sue.

Like a prime example of this to my memory is Shiba Tatsuya from the series The Irregular in Magic High School anime (dunno if the LN is like this). The plot revolves around him and other characters suffer or get the spotlight taken away from them to make Tatsuya shine.
 
Does that happen with the SAO MC? I hear the complaint a lot but I thought that it was just more riffing on the show rather than a legit thing.
 
it's real

however I think it's overly exaggerated by the detractors, nevertheless, it is an actual flaw, however many use this as a way to attack someones personal opinion on something. which ia rather absurd.

you can point out objective writing flaws in something and criticize it but that's, not the same thing as telling someone they are wrong for liking the specific thing.

you are allowed to like things that have flaws, personal tase and perspective is completely subjective.

I personally like Sword Art Online but in no way would I call them objectively great pieces of writing
 
Okay, I'll start with an analogy.

If an object looks, tastes, smells, and feels like an orange, then you should assume it's an orange.

If a character checks off every single thing in a list defining a trope, then it's safe to assume that the character falls into a trope. The video was just a visual guideline of such a checklist.

From your perspective, nothing is a Mary Sue, it's just "bad writing". From this perspective, there are no tropes, it's just "bad writing".

The effects that you talk about are because the character is a Mary Sue. The archetype has effects on the world, as every archetype does.

It seems you have a problem with the archetype, Mary Sue, then whether or not Rey is one.


There is a quintessential difference to Ichigo and Rey that I explained in my post. Believability.

And believability is one of the few imperative standards to character writing.

Ichigo has the moment of losing his mother, and because of that event, he doesn't want his remaining friends and family to die or to be hurt because of it. Ichigo wanting to protect those he loves because he was severely affected by the loss of a person he did love is believable, despite it being rather plain and unoriginal.

Rey has no reason to be such a good person, she has no reason, as a likely starving person, to give up a large amount of food to some random robot, she has no reason to attack a man that the robot said stole its friend's jacket. This stuff happened before she made her "emotional connections." And as The Last Jedi makes so evidently apparent, she has no such world defining moment from her past to elicit her to act so selflessly.

And her "emotional connection" is very debatable. She didn't care about the Resistance when she ran away into the forest. She later got captured, tortured, saw the person she met like a few hours ago die (the same person who she rejected the offer to go on adventures with because she "had to get home"), and then proceeded to fight Kylo Ren and win, she then goes on for the next movie subservient to the Resistance's desires.

Having such a deep emotional connection for people you just met is, quite frankly, unbelievable. She has no real reason to care about these people other than being in each other's proximity and being dragged along to aid them in their endeavors.

And I don't see how other characters liking Rey as proof of their emotional connection. Everyone liking the protagonist is a classic defining trait to being a Mary Sue.

So no, I'm not ignoring "a lot of well written and great characters", because those characters have believable, compelling, fascinating, and dimensional reasons to why they want to "do the right thing".

Doing the right thing is the effect to an impactful cause. The desire to do the right thing should not be the cause that leads to the effect of doing said right thing.

Batman doesn't kill people because 'it is the right thing to do", he does it because he hates death and would never purposefully inflict it because he remembers the pain of the death of his parents.

This will be my last post about the topic, and probably this thread in general.

I only posted some big Star Wars stuff that was in my recommendations on YouTube because I respected the effort going into the things I posted (a 15-hour critical essay and a fan film).

I don't particularly like Star Wars and I was never enamored with the series as a child, and not much has changed as an (almost) adult. I think the prequel memes are rather funny, and I think KOTOR I and II are brilliantly written games and I like hearing about the different character philosophies.

I respect the franchise for what it has done for Cinema, and I find a few concepts of the series 'cool' (The Force and Lightsabers mainly).

And as a Roman, I like seeing the historical mirror of my ancestors' history in the series (the fall of a Republic and the rise of an Empire).

So goodbye.
 
Having such a deep emotional connection for people you just met is, quite frankly, unbelievable. She has no real reason to care about these people.

it's not about the length but the events that shape their perspectives and relationships, in fact, there are many and I mean many narratives that tackle friendship, relationships, self-reflection within a span of a day, to criticize it as being unbelievable just doesn't work, especially when the larger narrative as whole is not constraint to a set amount of time to tell it's themes, characters, and main plot. criticizing something for not abiding by our logic of reality is moot, as a fictional narrative has to be consistent with its own internal logic and not the logic of the actual world, and the film clearly shows us that it is consistent with its own internal logic.


And I don't see how other characters liking Rey as proof of their emotional connection. Everyone liking the protagonist is a classic defining trait to being a Mary Sue

this only applies if the protagonist has done literally nothing to earn their emotional connection or respect which is not the case in the context of Rey, this is reinforced by Finn and Han Solo.

Rey has no reason to be such a good person, she has no reason, as a likely starving person, to give up a large amount of food to some random robot, she has no reason to attack a man that the robot said stole its friend's jacket

yes, you can, especially when it's within the characters personality this acts as both a logical way for the protagonist to do the things she does as well as being a character flaw, it's called stubborn altruism, coupled with Gullibility.

And believability is one of the few imperative standards to character writing.

only to its own internal logic.

And her "emotional connection" is very debatable. She didn't care about the Resistance when she ran away into the forest

she avoided the call to action, that's what all monomyth characters do, it's the reluctant hero.

Luke Skywalker in a New Hope outright declines to save Princess Leia, it's only after his family is slaughtered that he takes the call to action, and Rey does the same when she pulls the saber from the snow.

just because they are reluctant does not mean they don't care.

Doing the right thing is the effect to an impactful cause. The desire to do the right thing should not be the cause that leads to the effect of doing said right thing.

Batman doesn't kill people because 'it is the right thing to do", he does it because he hates death and would never purposefully inflict it because he remembers the pain of the death of his parents.

No, lets look at the Joker in the Dark Knight, He does a ridiculous amount evil for absolutely no logical reason, this is one of the major themes of the film, it's constantly told to us in meta-narrative and within the context of the actual narrative of the film, Alfred makes a reference to this "Some People just want to watch the world bur".

now let's look at Joker's quotes to why he does what he does

Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!

this along with intentional contradictory comments makes the Joker's intentions actually blurry to the characters within the narrative.

it boils down to, He wants to create Chaos.

why does he want to create Chaos?

Because he finds it Fun

Why does he Find it Fun

Because His Insane.

His Insanity is one of his character traits that acts both as his motivator as well as his character flaw as he has multiple opportunities to kill Batman but chooses not to do so because it's "Fun" This applies to Rey with her altruism, the only difference between these two characters are their roles within the story.

If a character checks off every single thing in a list defining a trope, then it's safe to assume that the character falls into a trope.

The problem is that the standard your using to describe a Mary Sue is inaccurate


The effects that you talk about are because the character is a Mary Sue. The archetype has effects on the world, as every archetype does.

No, this is objectively inaccurate, it's when the author intentionally alters the internal logic, consistency, reality of the narrative and the characters personalities to glorify a specific character, this specific character becomes a Mary Sue, which is why Mary Sue is a trope and not an archetype, these two are vastly two different things.
 
I'm honestly surprised that Nihilus isn't the strongest Sith (considering what he was going to do to the galaxy and his very nature)
 
Hellbeast1 said:
I'm honestly surprised that Nihilus isn't the strongest Sith (considering what he was going to do to the galaxy and his very nature)
Click to expand...
The glory that is power creep and the existence of Dark Empire
 
@Qaw

Unpopular Opinion: Dark Empire is one of the worst Star Wars EU comics, it completely invalidates Vader's sacrifice, the events of the entire saga and simply brings back an old villain for no good damn reason.
 
The only post ROTJ stuff in the OLD EU I actually love is the Thrawn Trilogy and some of the New Jedi order stuff, while I like the concept of the vong I didn't like the execution, also the Legacy stuff just wasn't for me.

this isn't to say anything about the quality but more personal preference, it felt more sci-fi than sci-fantasy, however, I feel like the OLD EU did strike gold with the old republic stuff and I feel that's where the EU is as it's strongest. it found a perfect balance of the mysticism and science fiction and has arguably some of my favorite characters.

Revan,Kreia,Bastilla,Nihilus,Malak,Rakata Empire ect ect
 
I also agree on a level. I actually enjoyed reading Dark Empire. But I cannot ignore the issues you mentioned. There is also the fact that the series reads like a cheesy fan-fiction.
 
@Shadow While I do like quite a bit of the Post EU stuff (Yuuzhan Vong were cool and Krayt served as quite a solid antagonist) I will concede that Thrawn was the pinnacle of it all and the Old Republic was the EU's best (I mean disregarding them dragging out Vitiate but alas)
 
Especially in SWTOR.

Like the guy gets killed by Tython, Revan ressurects him for dumbass reasons, the guy possesses a whole Imperial Base, then goes to this second Empire he pulled out of his ass that he views as superior to the Sith Empire, gets killed by his son we just met, possesses the protagonist to make him kill his kids because he actually vies it as a squandered endeavour, possesses the protagonist to retake his position because he actually likes the Eternal Empire and then gets killed by a deus ex machina containing his old man's soul he just had in his basement and helped us get for no reason.

So yeah Vitiate was fun at first but he felt like a discount Palpatine with a plan that made no sense and characterization without consistency.
 
Nice blog

Really sad to hear that the Skywalker saga is ending and if Kylo dies then Skywalker family will be no more. Wonder if Anakin will appear in ep 9 and who will be playing him?
 
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