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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

Is he referring to strength, or the fact that Anakin brought balance to the Force?
 
we dont know, prob strength given his other statements, but i tend to take these with a grain of salt
 
I think it's going to go down relatively easy. Most of the people responsible for those ratings are inactive or far less active.

The last major SW CRT was over a year ago.
 
ByAsura said:
I think it's going to go down relatively easy. Most of the people responsible for those ratings are inactive or far less active.

The last major SW CRT was over a year ago.
Click to expand...
I am all for to see how accurate it will been as personally I wonder if the rating we have on file is actually legit or not.
 

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HOO BOY
 
The Legends Death Star would only be 5-B, since it consistently performs feats that cap out at Planet level (like taking 3 shots at 1/3rd power to destroy a normal planet, being able to destroy planet surfaces/cores at ~1/8th power, etc).
 
I do plan on bringing it up once the current revisions are done. Anti feats are not required to debunk, details and plot is enough. If the canon Death Star truly possessed 10^38 joule of power, then it wouldn’t require charging up as long as it does to bust a planet. I get the math checks out but I highly doubt George Lucas intended for the DS to have power over 2 million times above baseline 5B.
 
That's because the canon Death Star doesn't work how you're suggesting it does.

They say in the Rogue One novel that it's more akin to a chain reaction, where the Death Star pumps energy into the planet until it fails.

I'll grab the quote in a bit.
 
"You may have heard rumors by now, leaks regarding a battle station integrating an advanced laser prototype. The battle station is real. Its primary weapon has been built to penetrate the crust of a planetary object, to pour energy into a world until the bonds of matter fray and break. The ultimate result, we believe, would be the planet’s violent obliteration. Nothing would survive. Nothing could ever be rebuilt."

It doesn't just blow up planets, it disassembles them, and can't be compared to something like an amplified turbolaser.

"[...] But the weapon…the weapon won’t merely be a larger version of the turbolaser. It will be something that has yet to be seen.”
 
Wouldn’t that actually support the fact that the KE calc shouldn’t apply? The fact that it’s a chain reaction that leads to such a violent explosion and not the canon Death Star’s raw power
 
I'm pretty sure it'd still apply, since the energy is what causes this. It's not a genuine chain reaction, like, for example, making a supernova by using a planet-sized machine as a trigger.

Also, in context, what you're saying about recharge doesn't even make sense because Death Star-scale Galactic Empire (not First or Final Order, mind you) superlasers are only ever fired at full power once in Star Wars canon.

DS-1's systems weren't fully operational until some time into ANH, which allowed them to destroy Alderaan. It was only after using that level of power that they prepared to target Yavin-4. And the attempt to destroy Yavin-4 took 30 minutes because that was their maximum orbital speed, not the recharge time of their Superlaser.

And even then, to put the nail in the coffin, that's just not how recharging works on the Death Star. It's as powerful as it is when shots are fired because of explicit amplification through Kyber focusing crystals, which are then further amplified. The actual reactor that provides the unamplified power is hypermatter based and needs time to recharge.
  • He had long suspected that the larger crystals needed to be faceted along certain planes, not only to eliminate occlusions and vacancies, but also to minimize diffraction resulting from the introduction of energy from a lasing medium. With the proper faceting, the pulse energy released by a crystal could be greatly amplified and, with the help of containment devices, directed into a collimating beam of incredible power.
Hell, according to the 2017 RoTJ novel, the DS-2 can recharge in minutes what it takes hours for the DS-1 because of improvements in that area. It was a design flaw.
  • And like its predecessor, the station had a superlaser focus lens positioned in its upper hemisphere and a trench that ringed the equator. However, it had none of the former Death Star’s design flaws. The redesigned superlaser would require mere minutes—not hours—to be recharged, and could be focused more finely, allowing it to fire at moving targets, such as capital ships.
 
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It most definitely shouldn’t apply due to being a chain reaction feat. The quote states planets are busted via the DS destabilizing the matter of a planet. The resulting explosion isn’t due to the DS raw power but the planet’s bonding matters destabilizing.

Unless I’m remembering incorrectly, didn’t the DS superlaser fire a far weaker blast in Rogue One? Only destroying an enemy base and nowhere close to the whole planet.

I’m aware the superlaser is amplified. However that doesn’t change the fact that the recharge time is far too long to claim High 5A. Minutes to recharge to bust a planet is still way too long when claiming the DS can release power in the 7x10^38 joules. It shouldn’t even take a 1/10 of a second.
 
That'd still be applicable to the profile, because it's not through external assistance. Although, I guess we should mention that it's via chain reaction, like we do on some other profiles.

Hence why I said 'only ever fired at full power once'. It didn't take any real time to recharge after that. My point is that your claims are unsubstantiated.

Yeah it does, because it's the weakest part of it that needs recharging, not the actual part that gives the Death Star the ability to destroy planets. It's not equivocal to 600 watts taking 10 seconds to make 6 kJ, it's the equivalent of using 200 joules produced over 5 seconds to push a boulder off a cliff, causing it to produce 6 kJ on impact.
 
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The Crystals amplification actually bring up a good question.

We don’t know how high of a power amplification the Crystals boost the superlasers but why would the Empire wait until the superlaser charge reaches a point where the Crystals amplification would result in a 10^38 joules blast when when 10^33 joules is enough to bust a planet? Seems very illogical.

The More likely explanation is that the superlaser even after crystal amplification isn’t anywhere close to 10^38 joules and the KE calc is just an exaggeration of the DS output
 
We've already proven that it does this via a chain reaction. Also, you're assuming these are linear systems; in real life for many things you need to reach a certain threshold before you can get an effect.

You're really just making stuff up at this point, so I don't feel the need to address it. Although, I will make a CRT to add in 'via chain reaction' to the Death Star pages.
 
My claims aren’t unsubstantiated though and the questions are valid. I’m not assuming there is a linear system for the Crystal amplification. It’s simply factual that it makes no sense to wait until the amplification would result in such a high degree of power when far less is required to get the job done.

Chain reaction or not, it doesn’t justify any of the valid questions above or the rating. Simple fact is that High 5A is an exaggerated rating.
 
Yes you absolutely are assuming it's a linear system because it wouldn't work that way otherwise. And this does absolutely nothing to address what I said, especially since this is provably just a result of the planet's failure that doesn't equal the energy outputted by the Death Star.

The facts are nothing because you've given no facts. You've made unsupported claims that actual facts don't support.

It's your opinion that High 5-A is contradicted, and there's nothing wrong with it being an opinion, but claiming this is a fact is just asinine.

Anyway, if it's more of this, I don't see a point in responding.
 
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One of my comment literally contradicts the claim that I’m assuming it’s a linear system.

I’ve proven the DS Superlaser can fire weaker shots. Which leads to valid questions that you dodge. Actual facts from within the verse don’t support High 5A either. The only thing that supports High 5A is a calc from this wiki

High 5A isn’t factual either…..the calc involves busting a planet slightly smaller than Earth, yet claiming 2 million times above Earth busting is reasonable. Which is completely illogical when taking everything into consideration.
 
Firstly, that doesn't contradict it being a linear system. That's just an argument against another claim, and it's about non-planet busting levels of power.

Secondly, since High 5-A was the kinetic energy of a chain reaction event, as we've proved, you're not actually providing any substantiation that a lesser level would be able to destroy a planet, since what the Death Star is pumping out isn't the resultant mass-scattering. I hate repeating myself, but you keep making the exact same argument here.

It involves mass-scattering a planet slightly smaller than Earth across thousands of kilometres of space in mere seconds. What are you even on about with this point? I gave the math, and that's what the math got, and saying it's unreasonable because of your other reasons is just circular logic.

Anyway, respond if you want, but I need to finish some profiles for other verses. The CRT will come out later.
 
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I don’t think your first point is referring to the right comment.

Already agreed that it was a chain reaction. Just that the KE calc shouldn’t apply to either the DS or the Planet chain reaction because there isn’t any other supporting evidence.

Just because the math checks out doesn’t mean it justifies the tiering. One reason applying to multiple flaws isn’t circular.

Aight, not like this is a CRT that will lead to change
 
Since these are different, smaller, arguments, I'll respond.

Sure, no other supporting evidence is an objective fact. I'll admit that.

It's circular reasoning when you're using it to justify itself.

Edit: Re-reading it, I think I just misinterpreted your intentions. My mistake.

And, given your current response, it seems like no supporting evidence is the only actual '''''''''flaw''''''''' that exists.
 
I’m not using it to justify itself. I brought it up because it leads to valid questions that lead to taking a second look at the tiering.

Lack of supporting evidence/feats isn’t the only flaw that exists. Flaws like how the tier just wouldn’t fit into the plot of the story exists in this instance. However lack of supporting evidence alone is enough. Its ridiculous to interpret a feat millions of times above what it should reasonably be when it has no other supporting feats.
 
Yes, you've already said that, but failed to make any valid example as the Superlaser's output never struggles to destroy a planet for plot reasons.

In fact, here's my example of the opposite; we see in the Darth Vader comics that the entire Exegol fleet was already built as of The Empire Strikes Back, and their construction occurred at a similar time to the first Death Star since the plans for superlasers were only obtained post-Clone Wars, yet each of them have the capability to violently destroy an Earth-like planet with nearly half the volume of Earth in 10 seconds, despite the fact that the entire ships are thousands of times less massive than the hypermatter core of either Death Star and outfitted with less Kyber focusing.

You'd need to have a proper anti-feat, like the Legends Death Star 3-shotting Despayre at 1/3rd power, for that 'no supporting evidence' criticism to be remotely valid.

Honestly, what you're saying just isn't enough for this wiki to accept.
 
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I’ve never denied the Superlaser being 5B. As a matter of a fact, I believe it is well above baseline 5B. I just don’t believe High 5A is logical, chain reaction or not.


None of that justifies a power disparity of millions of times over (from 10^32 to 10^38 joules). You’re only bringing up basic logic. Yes a larger volume obviously means room for a larger reactor and more crystals means greater amp. However the DS being thousands of time more voluminous doesn’t necessarily mean it’s thousands of times more powerful. Show me numbers on the size disparity of the reactors and their ability to generate energy. You also don’t have the exact numbers on the size of the crystals or how much they amp. Show me numbers on how the crystals function.

What I’m saying “just isn’t enough for this wiki to accept”. Yet the ongoing SW revisions concerning Jedi Master/Sith Lords are in the same exact situation. The tiering of 5B Jedis/Siths is being reevaluated because of a single misinterpreted (if not a straight up outlier) feat and a lack of supporting 5B feats/statements.

I wonder what super weapon has a tier that varies base entirely on the interpretations of fans who ignore the lack of supporting feats…..
 
I know you didn't deny it. That wasn't the point.

Fair point, but I think you're enormously splitting hairs. Also, speaking of numbers, you have yet to provide a single source for literally any of your arguments. You're the one who's making the other claims (not this particular one), so the burden of proof of on you for literally all of your other claims.

Edit: There actually is a statement from the book about the kind of differences between a capital ship superlaser that has the combined firepower of a starship less powerful than an Imperial-I Star Destroyer and something smaller than the Death Star's, but it'd be hypocritical of me to use this as an actual point when I was talking about thresholds before.
  • “It’s obvious to all of us that a superlaser of the sort we’re postulating would dwarf any present ship of the line, even the largest of the dreadnoughts. For a weapon fifty times the size of our prototype, the collimator shaft alone would have to be on the order of eight thousand meters in length.” She laughed in nervous incredulity. “And that doesn’t factor in the dissipaters, capacitors, or even the amplification crystal housing itself.” Krennic shrugged. “We’re speculating, after all. But yes. Think of it as a new and improved capital ship.” Demesne’s tattooed face furrowed in concern as her mind constructed such a vessel. “Then there is the matter of the crystal itself.” “What about it?” Krennic pressed. “It would have to be enormous—the size of a small building.” Krennic feigned indifference. “The size is less important than the way the crystal is romanced and faceted.”
You're not even part of the revisions that I'm forefronting right now, so I'm just going to tell you that that this line of reasoning is completely wrong. It's not based on any outliers (hell, it could be argued that the feats we're introducing are outliers compared to the larger Legends canon) or misinterpreting the feats themselves, it's based on poorly applied statements and scaling, like Jerec with a Force Nexus scaling to Palpatine via statements of Palpatine > Banite Siths when Jerec was never actually a Sith of any variety and obtained the nexus after Palpatine's body was obliterated at Endor. Additionally, the author of Shadows of Mindor has admitted that his book is basically purple prose.

I wonder when you'll actually make a convincing argument, with logic and citations. This is whole argument is starting to feel pointless.

Also, it's not based on an interpretation to any degree. It's literally based on what happened on-screen. It'd just be an outlier for the same type of reasoning for why I think the Legends DS-1 is 5-B, not a misinterpretation of what actually happened.
 
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Then I misread, my mistake.

I did prove that the superlaser can fire weaker shots and you agreed upon it. Which I further elaborated as to why it proves the superlaser being High 5A is illogical.

Any evidence you presented was easily debunked and added reasons as to why the DS superlaser isn’t High 5A. There still isn’t any solid evidence for the rating, only a calc. Which means the calc obviously doesn’t apply.

Never said I was part of your revisions. You’re obviously not the only one who talks about SW revisions and give reasons as to why revisions should occur. I’ve seen multiple threads (which was what I referring to earlier) where people mention their own reasons for why revisions are required. Don’t know why you brought up 4B Sidious outliers when I was referring to 5B Jedis being based on an outlier. Though that adds on to the fact that revisions are occurring because of misinterpretations.

I wonder when I’ll actually get a feat/statement proving High 5A DS and not some fan calc that wants to rate something they support as high as possible. Probably not gonna happen. So I agree this is rather pointless.

It is an interpretation. Your interpretation. Other calc methods will have different results. Legend DS is pretty blatant.
 
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