SSJ3 Goku/Innocent Majin Buu issue & Jiren scaling to the GoD's

[Eseseso]

1. Buu's profile says that he matched SSJ3 Goku (which the Daizenshuu supports), while Manga Goku's profile says that his SSJ3 form easily beat Innocent Buu.

While the Daizenshuu supports Buu equally SSJ3 Goku, Kid Buu stomped Fat Buu but matched SSJ3 so to me that seems to indicate that SSJ3 Goku is far above Innocent Buu, but if anyone disagrees let me know.

2. Ok, I'm astonished at how the wiki has not accepted this yet despite all the evidence, but restrained Jiren should scale above Belmod.

A. Whis's statement in 110 was blatantly saying that Restrained Jiren > Belmod.

B. No one ******* scratched Restrained Jiren, he wasn't even hurt by Vegeta's attacks. He only went serious due to Vegeta and Goku being too tenacious to take down normally.

C. He scared Beerus with his casual aura.

D. To quote @Zamasu_Chan : As we know, it's taboo for Gods of Destruction to fight each other. Or else it'll result in the destruction of more than one universe when they fight. When Arak, Iwen and Liquir fight each other, despite it being taboo, their fight has no effect on the World of Void. However, Jiren, while suppressed, and UIO1 Goku, shook the World of Void.

The only, and I mean only people who should scale to him are all of his states, the angels, and MUI Goku.

 

[LordTracer]

Uh… scans and references?

Also there’s quite a few people that scale to restrained Jiren, namely UIS Goku, SSJ2 Kefla, SSBE Vegeta and a couple of others.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I really agree, but could you scan your CRT to make it look nicer?

 

[Eseseso]

Uh… scans and references?

I'll try.

Also there’s quite a few people that scale to restrained Jiren, namely UIS Goku, SSJ2 Kefla, SSBE Vegeta and a couple of others.

None of those people did any damage to Jiren.

He didn't even think Kefla was worth his time.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Weren't they all stated to possess energy that had never been sensed up to that point, including Jiren? I'm pretty sure Vegeta was described as having "boundless energy", either during his big Final Flash or when he was entering Evolution for the first time.

 

[LordTracer]

None of those people did any damage to Jiren.

And…? UIS Goku matched restrained Jiren during their fight in 110, who was using more power than when he shook the World of Void, and every other Low 2-C character scales off of UIS Goku in some way.

He didn't even think Kefla was worth his time.

And he thought Kale and Maji Kayo were, that’s not a good argument.

 

[Eseseso]

And…? UIS Goku matched restrained Jiren during their fight in 110, who was using more power than when he shook the World of Void, and every other Low 2-C character scales off of UIS Goku in some way.

How do they all scale off UIO Goku again?

And he thought Kale and Maji Kayo were, that’s not a good argument.

Maji Kayo was threatening to maim his teammate.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

How do they all scale off UIO Goku again?

Kefla was stated to possess enough power to instantly kill 2nd -Sign- Goku, SSB Vegeta's Final Flash received a "not half-bad" from Jiren, and Piccolo described SSB Evolution Vegeta's energy as "boundless" at the time.

 

[LordTracer]

Maji Kayo was threatening to maim his teammate.

My point still stands. Whether or not they were “worth Jiren’s time” is irrelevant, unless you want to argue that Kale is stronger than Kefla.

 

[Eseseso]

Kefla was stated to possess enough power to instantly kill 2nd -Sign- Goku,

This is fine.

SSB Vegeta's Final Flash received a "not half-bad" from Jiren,

Is there anything we can compare this to? Like any attack that Jiren said was weak?

and Piccolo described SSB Evolution Vegeta's energy as "boundless" at the time.

And what does this mean scaling-wise?

My point still stands. Whether or not they were “worth Jiren’s time” is irrelevant, unless you want to argue that Kale is stronger than Kefla.

He one-shot Kale, who mind you scales =< SSJG Goku in a later and stronger form, and only intervened against Kayo to save Dyspo.

 

[LordTracer]

He one-shot Kale, who mind you scales =< SSJG Goku in a later and stronger form, and only intervened against Kayo to save Dyspo.

Which is irrelevant to the point I’m making, which is that Jiren’s intervention doesn't mean a whole lot for scaling, and it certainly isn’t a point against Kefla’s scaling.

 

[Eseseso]

Which is irrelevant to the point I’m making, which is that Jiren’s intervention doesn't mean a whole lot for scaling, and it certainly isn’t a point against Kefla’s scaling.

Those things happened before Jiren went into meditation.

 

[LordTracer]

Those things happened before Jiren went into meditation.

And the relevance of that is…?

 

[Sans015]

1. Buu's profile says that he matched SSJ3 Goku (which the Daizenshuu supports), while Manga Goku's profile says that his SSJ3 form easily beat Innocent Buu.

While the Daizenshuu supports Buu equally SSJ3 Goku, Kid Buu stomped Fat Buu but matched SSJ3 so to me that seems to indicate that SSJ3 Goku is far above Innocent Buu, but if anyone disagrees let me know.

Goku said SSJ3 could've defeated Fat Buu. Which is a different form from Innocent Buu, although they look the same. Fat Buu still has Evil Buu inside him, so he is almost as strong as Super Buu. Innocent Buu lost a chunk of its power when he expelled Evil Buu.

These examples are not quite comparable. Kid Buu beating Innocent Buu tells us nothing about SSJ3 vs Fat Buu.

 

[Eseseso]

Since we're still arguing about the meditating Jiren part, what about the other points:

1. Buu's profile says that he matched SSJ3 Goku (which the Daizenshuu supports), while Manga Goku's profile says that his SSJ3 form easily beat Innocent Buu.

While the Daizenshuu supports Buu equally SSJ3 Goku, Kid Buu stomped Fat Buu but matched SSJ3 so to me that seems to indicate that SSJ3 Goku is far above Innocent Buu, but if anyone disagrees let me know.


2.

A. Whis's statement in 110 was blatantly saying that Restrained Jiren > Belmod.



C. He scared Beerus with his casual aura.

D. To quote @Zamasu_Chan : As we know, it's taboo for Gods of Destruction to fight each other. Or else it'll result in the destruction of more than one universe when they fight. When Arak, Iwen and Liquir fight each other, despite it being taboo, their fight has no effect on the World of Void. However, Jiren, while suppressed, and UIO1 Goku, shook the World of Void.

IIRC the Jiren shaking void point was accepted by multiple mods but was removed for some reason.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Goku said SSJ3 could've defeated Fat Buu. Which is a different form from Innocent Buu, although they look the same. Fat Buu still has Evil Buu inside him, so he is almost as strong as Super Buu. Innocent Buu lost a chunk of its power when he expelled Evil Buu.

These examples are not quite comparable. Kid Buu beating Innocent Buu tells us nothing about SSJ3 vs Fat Buu.

Oh, yeah, that.

Although, Innocent Buu—which is the complete Buu—is evidently weaker than Super Buu, lacking the body necessary to draw out the full extent of his absorbed power.

That being said, though, the fact that Evil Buu could even defeat Good Buu proves that fissioning made Buu weaker, which is why Kid Buu could ragdoll him.

Also, Goku only said he could have beaten Innocent Buu, with no mention of how difficult such a feat would have been. In fact, to Piccolo, he expressed uncertainty of the matter.

 

[Eseseso]

Oh, yeah, that.

Although, Innocent Buu—which is the complete Buu—is evidently weaker than Super Buu, lacking the body necessary to draw out the full extent of his absorbed power.

That being said, though, the fact that Evil Buu could even defeat Good Buu proves that fissioning made Buu weaker, which is why Kid Buu could ragdoll him.

Also, Goku only said he could have beaten Innocent Buu, with no mention of how difficult such a feat would have been. In fact, to Piccolo, he expressed uncertainty of the matter.

But that's not what I'm asking.

Fat Buu's profile says he is = SSJ3 Goku.

SSJ3 Goku's profile says he easily beat Fat Buu.

Which one is right?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

He never said that. All he said is that he could defeat Buu if the battle lasted longer. Buu still proved capable of matching Goku at the time. Also, the Daizenshuu stated that Goku matched Buu, not that Buu matched Goku.

 

[Eseseso]

He never said that. All he said is that he could defeat Buu if the battle lasted longer. Buu still proved capable of matching Goku at the time. Also, the Daizenshuu stated that Goku matched Buu, not that Buu matched Goku.

"easily overpowered Innocent Buu as a Super Saiyan 3. "

Copied from his current profile.

 

[Eseseso]

C. He scared Beerus with his casual aura.

D. To quote @Zamasu_Chan : As we know, it's taboo for Gods of Destruction to fight each other. Or else it'll result in the destruction of more than one universe when they fight. When Arak, Iwen and Liquir fight each other, despite it being taboo, their fight has no effect on the World of Void. However, Jiren, while suppressed, and UIO1 Goku, shook the World of Void.

Just wanted to remind everyone of the above 2 points.

IIRC the 2nd point was literally accepted until a certain mod threw a temper tantrum and reversed it without permission basically because he said so.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"easily overpowered Innocent Buu as a Super Saiyan 3. "

Copied from his current profile.

That should be fixed, because Goku even remarked that his attacks did little damage to Buu.

 

[Eseseso]

That should be fixed, because Goku even remarked that his attacks did little damage to Buu.

Thank you!

 

[CloverDragon03]

That should be fixed, because Goku even remarked that his attacks did little damage to Buu.

I'm in agreement with this as far as the SSJ3 Goku and Innocent Buu point is concerned.

 

[CloverDragon03]

As for Jiren, I've always thought this made sense. His ki alone could shake the World of Void, and this is clearly an intentional move as UI Sign Goku then proceeds to perform the same feat. Meanwhile, 3 GoDs couldn't accomplish this, despite a fight between 2 being stated to result in the destruction of 2 universes. The GoDs also would have zero reason to not be at full power, as they were specifically testing the arena's durability and also would not want to disappoint the Zen-Oh twins, given how fickle they are. Also, Jiren's ki being enough to make Beerus sweat bullets is another point in its favor, especially when he specifically says "Is this really the ki coming from one warrior?"

Though I will say, more people would scale than what you're saying.

 

[Eseseso]

Though I will say, more people would scale than what you're saying.

Like who?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Like who?

A lot of people scale to Restrained Jiren, including:

Post-2nd UI SSB Goku, Broly/Super Hero Saga SSB Vegeta, SSBE ToP Vegeta, all forms of UI Sign Goku, all states of Jiren, the angels, SSJ2 Kefla, Wrathful, SSJ, and FPSSJ Broly, all forms of Gogeta, GoD Toppo, all forms of Super Hero Piccolo, all forms of Super Hero Gohan (except base), Transformed Anilaza, and Android 17's Barriers and Self-Destruction

 

[Eseseso]

A lot of people scale to Restrained Jiren, including:

Post-2nd UI SSB Goku, Broly/Super Hero Saga SSB Vegeta, SSBE ToP Vegeta, all forms of UI Sign Goku, all states of Jiren, the angels, SSJ2 Kefla, Wrathful, SSJ, and FPSSJ Broly, all forms of Gogeta, GoD Toppo, all forms of Super Hero Piccolo, all forms of Super Hero Gohan (except base), Transformed Anilaza, and Android 17's Barriers and Self-Destruction

Most of this looks good, but why again do the first 2 scale?

And doesn't Ultimate ToP Gohan scale to Koichirator who matched the first 2?

 

[LordTracer]

A lot of people scale to Restrained Jiren, including:

Post-2nd UI SSB Goku, Broly/Super Hero Saga SSB Vegeta, SSBE ToP Vegeta, all forms of UI Sign Goku, all states of Jiren, the angels, SSJ2 Kefla, Wrathful, SSJ, and FPSSJ Broly, all forms of Gogeta, GoD Toppo, Orange Piccolo, Beast Gohan (maybe Ultimate Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan in Super Hero too), Transformed Anilaza, and Android 17's Barriers and Self-Destruction

Basically every Low 2-C that isn’t Infinite Zamasu gets their scaling from restrained Jiren in some way.

Also Beerus and Champa arguably scale, as Broly Saga SSB Goku was only stated to be nearing the level of the gods, and ToP Goku only surpassed Beerus with UIS2

 

[CloverDragon03]

Most of this looks good, but why again do the first 2 scale?

And doesn't Ultimate ToP Gohan scale to Koichirator who matched the first 2?

The first one is because Post-2nd UI Goku (though it's actually more like Post-Anilaza Fight Goku) can fight a Jiren who was starting to show a hint of his true power. As for the second one, in the Broly Saga and Super Hero Saga, Goku and Vegeta are portrayed as equal (even by the end of the last DBS episode, SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta are equal)

Also as for Ultimate Gohan in the ToP, again this is my mistake, it's more like Anilaza Fight SSB Goku, as he was still recovering his stamina up until that final beam clash with Anilaza, where he's able to go full power

 

[CloverDragon03]

Basically every Low 2-C that isn’t Infinite Zamasu gets their scaling from restrained Jiren in some way.

Also Beerus and Champa arguably scale, as Broly Saga SSB Goku was only stated to be nearing the level of the gods, and ToP Goku only surpassed Beerus with UIS2

Kinda contradicted since Suppressed Jiren's ki had Beerus scared

 

[Eseseso]

The first one is because Post-2nd UI Goku (though it's actually more like Post-Anilaza Fight Goku) can fight a Jiren who was starting to show a hint of his true power. As for the second one, in the Broly Saga and Super Hero Saga, Goku and Vegeta are portrayed as equal (even by the end of the last DBS episode, SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta are equal)

Didn't Jiren one-shot him and Vegeta just by flexing his energy field?

Also as for Ultimate Gohan in the ToP, again this is my mistake, it's more like Anilaza Fight SSB Goku, as he was still recovering his stamina up until that final beam clash with Anilaza, where he's able to go full power

That's fair, especially since Base Toppo was > Gohan.

17 should probably get the same scaling as SSJB Goku for doing just as well against a serious Jiren.

Hell, when that energy field one-shot Goku and Vegeta he was fine.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Didn't Jiren one-shot him and Vegeta just by flexing his energy field?

That's fair, especially since Base Toppo was > Gohan.

17 should probably get the same scaling as SSJB Goku for doing just as well against a serious Jiren.

Hell, when that energy field one-shot Goku and Vegeta he was fine.

Yeah, I always hated that we treated 17 as weaker than SSB×20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta even though he fought the same Jiren they did and did just as well as them and took hits from that Jiren intended for them as well. He should've been scaling outright to them.

 

[LordTracer]

Kinda contradicted since Suppressed Jiren's ki had Beerus scared

Not necessarily. Beerus could be shook since Jiren’s power is so close to him (all he says is; “Is this really the energy from just one warrior?!”), it doesn’t have to mean Jiren is stronger than him.

And there’s more evidence for Beerus to scale above Broly Saga SSB Goku/Vegeta than there is for him being below restrained Jiren, UIS1 Goku and the others.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's true. It could still work as supporting evidence

 

[LordTracer]

That's true. It could still work as supporting evidence

Oh yeah, it definitely works as support for Jiren’s scaling.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Didn't Jiren one-shot him and Vegeta just by flexing his energy field?

This is Full Power Jiren, not Suppressed Jiren. Again, there's a difference between his full power and just a hint of his true power.

Also, Goku and Vegeta were both really tired by this point.

That's fair, especially since Base Toppo was > Gohan.

17 should probably get the same scaling as SSJB Goku for doing just as well against a serious Jiren.

Hell, when that energy field one-shot Goku and Vegeta he was fine.

No, because 17 was being overwhelmed by Toppo. He was only fine because androids of his model don't get tired

 

[Golden_Void]

I agree, it would also give stronger support to Jiren being able to ki crush his universe's team.

And Goku > Fat Buu

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree, it would also give stronger support to Jiren being able to ki crush his universe's team.

Well that's already on his profile for his full power

 

[Eseseso]

This is Full Power Jiren, not Suppressed Jiren. Again, there's a difference between his full power and just a hint of his true power.

Also, Goku and Vegeta were both really tired by this point.

But why would Goku and Vegeta scale to suppressed Jiren?

I mean, for SSBE Vegeta it'd make sense since he beat a GoD (Toppo) who also IIRC shook the world of void.

No, because 17 was being overwhelmed by Toppo. He was only fine because androids of his model don't get tired

Fair

 

[Golden_Void]

Well that's already on his profile for his full power

Yeah, that's why I said stronger support