[Speed Equalized] Chara vs Super Dimentio

[Talonmask]

Here.

"I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power. Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong. HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV. Every time a number increases, that feeling... that's me."

Chara is clearly stating that the increase of any of these things, including one's capacity to hurt others, is them.

 

[Cohobast]

Yes but would any of those continue to increase in a space where there is only Dimentio and Chara? I'm mostly on Chara's side in all this but it seems a question to consider.

 

[Talonmask]

If Dimentio is sought to harm or kill Chara, which is the whole point of this, then yes. It even says they are bloodlusted in this scenario.

 

[Tivanenk]

LV is not one's capacity to hurt others >_>

It's one desire to hurt others, the more you hurt the more your LV increases.

 

[Talonmask]

"When you have enough EXP, your LOVE increases. LOVE, too, is an acronym. It stands for "Level of Violence." A way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt." - Sans

Even then, you basically shot yourself in the foot there because this is a bloodlusted scenario, in which Dimentio is trying their hardest and wants to kill Chara.

 

[Huesito88]

Going with chara for reasons above

 

[The_Wright_Way]

My votes on chara for reasons above.

 

[Fllflourine]

Not to get involved or anything, but doesn't bloodlust mean the character is fighting without any inhibitions and cares about nothing other than defeating the enemy? I'm not sure if that means Dimentio actually wants to kill Chara.

 

[Talonmask]

In character they are already willing to kill to win, in bloodlust they will do anything they possibly can to win the battle, I think it's usually implied that they want to kill in this state because they will fight with no restrictions of character, and the person's character could be that they do not want to kill.

Bloodlust is also defined as an "uncontrollable desire to kill or maim others".

 

[Yes850]

My vote is for Chara. I'm all for the Narra-Chara theory, but I also believe that killing everyone was a means to prove to them that we are a worthy partner, with each kill they gain a little more control over Frisk until finally they are Frisk. Thus they would still have the ability to SAVE/LOAD, even if this theory isn't correct I think Chara would still have sufficient determination to control this ability as well as survive attacks from higher tiered entities much like Frisk did. Invisibility doesn't seem to help Dimentio at this tier and I doubt that mind control would work at this levele either. Regardless, once again I vote for Chara in this scenario.

 

[DarkLordofShadows]

My vote is for Dimentio.

Even if Dimentio can't actually kill Chara, he could defeat they, by using his Flip between dimensions, leaving Chara in a lower dimensional scale.

 

[Talonmask]

Has Dimentio ever used his flip on someone else? From how the page puts it, he can only do it to himself, and is only capable of flipping between 2-D and 3-D, so it wouldn't be helping him here.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

I do not remember if Dimentio did it, but nevertheless, Mario already. Sorry, I can not find his link doing it...

 

[DarkLordofShadows]

Paper Mario had used it on someone else if I can remember that well... And that's also the literally the same ability Dimentio has....

 

[Talonmask]

Paper Mario doesn't have it on his profile, unless you show me him changing the dimensions of someone else, which the Flip ability doesn't say you can do, it will not help Dimentio.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Paper Mario doesn't have it on his profile
Yes, I wanted to make a discussion about it in the future.

Not found video link that, but say for sure that he did. When I find I send the link, if I do not think I'll go to the game and make a gif of him doing.

 

[DarkLordofShadows]

Also, Chara isn't immortal because it became a concept. Dialga is Time itself, Palkia is Space, and well, none of them are immortal. Chara isn't Hate itself, it became hatred by YOUR own actions. In fact, it were Chara who saved Asriel during the True Pacifist and the Souless Pacifist timelines... Frisk had fallen in Chara's grave and called it's name (that happens when you name the fallen child). The game has no narrator until you get pass through Flowey. The first flavor text is at the first Save Point.

Look, if Chara were LOVE itself, they would not question why do you keep doing genocides, neither would they completely uninstalll the game during a Third Genocide.

Chara has immortality because:

1┬║ They're already dead.

2┬║ It's their Determination that keeps bringing them back (same reason for Frisk to come back).

 

[DarkLordofShadows]

Well, I need to go now. My vote is to Dimentio, since I've already told you why.

 

[Talonmask]

Look, if Chara were LOVE itself, they would not question why do you keep doing genocides, neither would they completely uninstalll the game during a Third Genocide.

Chara has immortality because:

1┬║ They're already dead.

2┬║ It's their Determination that keeps bringing them back (same reason for Frisk to come back).

I've covered this already, Chara wouldn't have their immortality as it is had it not been discussed prior.

Dimentio cannot flip someone else, and him flipping to 2-D will not help him, flip only applies to 3-D and 2-D, as I've said.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Dimentio cannot flip someone else, and him flipping to 2-D will not help him, flip only applies to 3-D and 2-D, as I've said.

Mario did it and the ability of the two is exactly the same. I already said send the link when I find, what is the problem of waiting?

 

[Talonmask]

It shouldn't be hard to find if its a critical function of the game.

I have no problem with waiting, but I'm highly doubtful. A vote can't be counted if it has completely false reasoning.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

I think if it was easy to find, I already would have found, right? Mainly because I not remember when he did it in the game.

 

[Yes850]

Also, Chara isn't immortal because it became a concept. Dialga is Time itself, Palkia is Space, and well, none of them are immortal. Chara isn't Hate itself, it became hatred by YOUR own actions.

Immortality type 8 is described as (among various things) immortality relying on a concept. Palkia and Dialga are special cases, plus emotions are harder to destroy than time/space when you're a character who casually destroys reality. The theory (though popular) that Chara became corrupted isn't cannon. It can just as likely be that Chara once resurrected is spiteful from their death and wants to kill, with each kill their control of Frisk becomes stronger. This can been seen in thesetheories. It isn't that Chara is hate, just that they can survive on the desire to kill. Besides, even if they did get corrupted, we're still using the corrupted form of the character as that's the only way they attain their 2B tier.

In fact, it were Chara who saved Asriel during the True Pacifist and the Souless Pacifist timelines...

The intentions behind why they shared these memories is unknown, it could equally be as likely that they are unintentionally shared. It could also be possible that they shared these memories to stop Asriel as Chara knows they won't be able to do a Genocide run whilst Asriel is so powerful.

Look, if Chara were LOVE itself, they would not question why do you keep doing genocides, neither would they completely uninstalll the game during a Third Genocide.

They question why you don't erase the world after there's nothing in it, it's probable that they just find this pointless which is why they ask. Also addressed here. They also don't uninstall the game after a third genocide, they just question you repeatedly from the second run onward.

Chara has immortality because:

1┬║ They're already dead.

2┬║ It's their Determination that keeps bringing them back (same reason for Frisk to come back).

Probably not the first one since everything gets destroyed (including the souls) in the genocide run. Chara likely has immortality via Determination and reliant immortality. As well as being acausal. All feats listed in their page. I understand arguing extra feats for characters with evidence, but dismissing the feats given to a character via their page sort of defeats the purpose of character pages.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I think if it was easy to find, I already would have found, right? Mainly because I not remember when he did it in the game.

He did it in chapter 1 I believe. When he went into the red guy's house red guy was stuck in 3d so mario used his ability to flip him into 2d. Outside of that he has never done it in combat so i doubt he can. And if Mario can't do it then there's no way dimentio could.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

He did it in chapter 1 I believe. When he went into the red guy's house red guy was stuck in 3d so mario used his ability to flip him into 2d.

Exactly, thank you, it was then that he did.

Outside of that he has never done it in combat so i doubt he can. And if Mario can't do it then there's no way dimentio could.

He can also do it in combat, only it is the hard part to find the game. I'll be back to the part where he did it with Red.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Here

 

[Talonmask]

Unless you show him using it in combat, I'm not believing it, even then, if Dimentio didn't use it in his fight with you, it's unlikely he will do it here since it's not something really used offensively and the fact he normally other abilities when trying to kill.

This doesn't really give an answer for Chara's immortality, Regenerationn, soul manipulation and possession.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

The problem is that if he is able to do this naturally, why could not do it in combat? Unless you have some test or something that prevents he from doing it in combat, the fact that he have done it is enough for that. And then, I must repeat that the ability to Dimentio and Paper Mario is exactly the same, if Mario can do it, I do not see why Dimentio couldn't.

Not even? Do you really think Soul Manipulation, Possession and Regenerationn would be a problem for Dimentio if he became Chara 11-A?

 

[Talonmask]

He hasn't used it for combat, so why would he here? He typically uses his more offensive abilities, he probably wouldn't even think to flip Chara. Especially as Super Dimentio.

You can't exactly just stop something that resides within you, Chara embodies a concept that resides within Dimentio, you can't say it doesn't, because Dimentio is trying to kill in this scenario. Chara will still come back.


Chara's Regenerationn and immortality are a problem, yes.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

He has used in combat, but I just do not want to roll the game behind the time he did, I'm sent him doing with Red and this enough to assume that it can, and you can not deny that why you saw clearly he doing.

So you think Super Dimentio could not defeat Azelf, Mesprit and Uxie by embodies Emotion, Knowledge and Willpower? He could , you know why? Because they are Low 2-C. And you think Mister Mxyzptlk could not kill Chara because he would need desire to hurt for it? This does not seem to have any logic.

That problem he would have to destroy a 11-A? You are simply ignoring the skill he has, nothing more than that.

 

[Talonmask]

You are failing to understand what I am getting at, I have not seen him use it in combat, what I do know is that he often uses other abilities instead, so what exactly changes things here?

Uhh, I never said that. Chara can simply come back because Dimentio has possesses the capacity to hurt others, why is that so hard for you to understand?

Where did I even say Dimentio couldn't defeat the Lake Trio or Chara wouldn't lose to Mxy?

You are ignoring the fact that he doesn't normally use it, but you seem to think he will always think to use it right off the bat offensively because Mario did it once in a non-combat situation.

You are simply ignoring that Chara's immortality will let them come back to Dimentio's level, and their ability to regenerate from nothing.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

That's exactly what you're saying, the only thing that changes are the characters I used as an example.

Seriously you want to consider the moral aspects of the characters in a bloodlusted battle? Again this makes no sense, no matter if "he does not think about it often".

I'll ask again: What problems Dimentio would have to destroy a 11-A? Whether Chara has immortality and Regenerationn, will not change the fact that the Flip made it 11-A.

 

[DarkLordofShadows]

Just coming back here to leave a vote for Dimentio

I've already told my opinions about it.

 

[Talonmask]

That's exactly what you're saying, the only thing that changes are the characters I used as an example.

Seriously you want to consider the moral aspects of the characters in a bloodlusted battle? Again this makes no sense, no matter if "he does not think about it often".

I'll ask again: What problems Dimentio would have to destroy a 11-A? Whether Chara has immortality and Regenerationn, will not change the fact that the Flip made it 11-A.

You, again, fail to understand what I'm saying, I'm not going to go in circles with you.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Didn't mario use the flip ability to fight enemies in the game last I checked.

 

[Fllflourine]

Is the current vote tally correct or no?

 

[Ryukama]

I'm pretty sure that Mario's "Flip" ability is not taken as the literal 2nd spacial dimension due to how it acts absolutely nothing like it. Or at least that's what we say whenever people try to downgrade Paper Mario into Tier 11 or upgrade them into higher dimensions.

Also Dimentio has never demonstrated being able to flip everything except himself into the 2nd Dimension and then attack the now 2nd Dimensional entity as a 3rd Dimensional being.

If we're going to take this as actual spacial dimensions shifting, which there is no reason to at all, the best Dimentio would do is turn himself 2-D as well.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

You, again, fail to understand what I'm saying, I'm not going to go in circles with you.

I was about to make the same decision.

Didn't mario use the flip ability to fight enemies in the game last I checked.

He can do it , checked it at all times I played . But I'm busy with school and do not want to worry about going after specific times in the game right now.

Is the current vote tally correct or no?

I believe you did not include the @DarkLordofShadows's vote, just in case I'd better count again.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Or at least that's what we say whenever people try to downgrade Paper Mario into Tier 11 or upgrade them into higher dimensions.

Nor would this be the real reason , he can not take downgrade to Tier 11 to have free access to the third dimension. It can come and go as he wants, what is not the case for Chara. Besides, it was not shown absolutely nothing higher dimensional in Super Paper Mario or any game in the series, so there is also no reason to put it as.

Also Dimentio has never demonstrated being able to flip everything except himself into the 2nd Dimension and then attack the now 2nd Dimensional entity as a 3rd Dimensional being.

I do not see why he could not, since Mario can.

If we're going to take this as actual spacial dimensions shifting, which there is no reason to at all, the best Dimentio would do is turn himself 2-D as well.

What I said.

 

[Ryukama]

@Kevyn When did Mario turn someone 2nd dimensional and then fight them while he was 3rd dimensional.

Even if you find me an example, it doesn't matter since Paper Mario's dimension flipping is just a fun game gimmick. And not to be taken as mathematical, spacial dimensions in the slightest (which if they did want it to have elements of science or math to it, then they simply failed too hard for it to be reliably viewed as that)

And if we were to Paper Mario would've gotten some drastic downgrades/upgrades a long time ago.

Also you did not say that. You keep insisting Dimentio will stay 3-D while Chara is 2-D. Not that he'd turn his entire surroundings including himself "2-D" like I said.

But unless someone wants to make a content revision thread to convince us to start accepting Mario's "flipping" as actual dimensions, which I am pretty sure we'll not given how many times that's been turned down, then any vote for Dimentio that uses him making Chara Tier 11 as a reasoning should be discarded. Because if we don't use that line of reasoning for his tiering, why should we use that for a match up of his?