Speed Blitzing and Time Manipulation

[Dargoo_Faust]

Match-ups with equalized statistics (with the exception of speed) are not allowed, as they turn the entire tiering system unnecessary. During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.

So, I've come across a predicament.

We have previously discussed speed amplifications, allowing them in matches that have speed equalized, and also forbid the results of matches in which speed amping results in a blitz from being added.

However, this precedent comes into conflict with users of Time Manipulation such as Assassin (EMIYA), Dio Brando, et cetera. These fighters can use time-based abilities in a speed equalized match to blitz an opponent, yet there is no such restriction on matches being added despite a character winning through blitzing the opponent.

So, do we allow matches where a character uses Time Manipulation to blitz an opponent? If so, shouldn't we go and remove matches where a character uses Time Manipulation to win a fight?

Note: STAFF ONLY

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Preventing matches from being added due to speed amping seems kinda arbitrary and unnecessarily restrictive

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

We don't allow matches where a character wins through speed amping enough to blitz already, though.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dargoo I know, i dont agree with that rule and think it should be removed

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also we're kinda inconsistent about it, i know for a fact there have been matches where characters like Weiss Schnee have had their speed amps restricted despite it being time-based

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, we rule speed blitzes as stomps regardless, I don't see how accomplishing it by amping speed is any different, unless you want to allow speed blitz victories in general.

 

[Kirby71]

Agree, It should be allowed to win via speedblitzing if its statistics augmentation.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dargoo I mean why allow stat amping in general if thats what we're arguing? Why allow AP Amps where the opponent can become strong enough to oneshot? Or durable enough that the other opponent cannot hurt them?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also we're kinda inconsistent about it, i know for a fact there have been matches where characters like Weiss Schnee have had their speed amps restricted despite it being time-based

Yeah, that's why I made this thread.

Time Manip and especially Time Stop is hardly every viewed as a Speed Blitz despite it being practically identical to amplifications, and thus despite our rules matches with it involved are added all the time.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Speed blitzing via speed amps should be allowed to be added

We single out speed as the stat that needs to be dealt with the most when stat amps cover other things that make matches just as stompish but no one bats an eye

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Fair point. I suppose strength/dura amps should either be viewed in the same light or we should drop the precendent for speed amps.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Just saying, we can restrict higher tiered AP/Dura abilities as long as they go above the character's base tier, yet can't do the same for speed from what I am aware of.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You can still oneshot someone while staying in the same tier as them

Also, on the same note, what about Statistics Reduction where you make your opponent so weak they cant hurt you or lower their durability to the point that you can oneshot them? Or lower their speed to the point that you can blitz them?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

True as well.

 

[Antvasima]

We need more staff input here. Perhaps you can ask several knowledgeable members via their message walls?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Is a possible highlight in order?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so. I will add the thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It should depend on the extent of time manipulation. If Speed manipulation only makes character A twice character B, then I say it's fair to be added. But if it's something like 10 or more multitudes; than yeah, it's a speed stomp despite it being a speed equalized thread.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dark What about all the other stuff i brought up?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There was actually another thread regarding speed equalization but didn't get enough input. Right now, much of us are still iffy on the just "ignore speed completely" formula and think there should be alterations to what speed equalizing is.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mean why allow stat amping in general if thats what we're arguing? Why allow AP Amps where the opponent can become strong enough to oneshot? Or durable enough that the other opponent cannot hurt them?

Also, on the same note, what about Statistics Reduction where you make your opponent so weak they cant hurt you or lower their durability to the point that you can oneshot them? Or lower their speed to the point that you can blitz them?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I mean where do you draw the line?

EMIYA may increase his own time flow to artificially augment his speed, but Archer (Billy The Kid) does the exact opposite but has a similar result. Do we outlaw time stop if it results in a "blitz"?

I think the best thing would just be to use the Win condition system. If both characters have win conditions then it is fine to add. Simple as that

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think this completely comes down to whether or not the speed power results in a stomp. If the opponent can defeat the speed-amping/time user it should be added, but if the speed-amper/time user leads with that power, like Dio, and thus makes the opponent completely unable to win in any feasible scenario, it's a stomp and shouldn't be added.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Assalt What about what i brought up tho? Why allow Ap/dura amping or speed/ap/dura reduction which can all have the exact same effects but not allow speed amping?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Weekly

I have no qualm with any boosts so long as it isn't a stomp. If they can be stopped before the amp hits or even have a chance after it's used I have no problem with any form of boosting.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Let's treat this like we do with Kumagawa. He often wins his matches by a Psuedo-Time Stop "blitz." But all of his matches (except for Izzard which kinda needs to be removed) have the opponent with a way to win. Him "blitzing" with time stop can make it hard to find matches sometimes, but the ones on his profile are still valid. Many matches have been started that don't have a way for his enemy to win, in which case they don't get added. Simple as that

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It should depend on the extent of time manipulation. If Speed manipulation only makes character A twice character B, then I say it's fair to be added. But if it's something like 10 or more multitudes; than yeah, it's a speed stomp despite it being a speed equalized thread.

Under that logic we should remove any battles won through Time Stop on speed equal threads.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm pretty sure this thread is redundant as we agreed that speed amps are fair game in speed equalized months ago and the rule was never changed.

 

[Crzer07]

It should be regarded as haxstomp as you're not affecting the speed itself but reducing time around them making them appear slower. Unless the opponent can resist or counter time hax, or prevent it from being used.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Cal There's apparently a rule that the threads cant be added if speed amps make the originally slower character win via speedblitzing

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Telekinesis and Paralysis inducement would also fall under the same category as time stop

 

[Kaltias]

If someone blitzes someone else it's a stomp and it shouldn't be added.

If I need a single thought to turn an octillion of times faster and proceed to turn you into sushi, it's a stomp unless you have some ability that allows you to retaliate.

Being speed equal or not is irrelevant really

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Kalt Then Time Stop, TK, and Paralysis Inducement should all be banned from matches

As should Stat reduction that makes you so slow that you can be blitzed, weak enough that you cant hurt your opponent, or frail enough to be oneshot. Or Stat amping that makes you strong enough to oneshot or durable that your opponent cant hurt you.

Teleportation would fall under this as well

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I thought it was banned to disable hax, but now you're saying we should ban those abilities? Telekinesis and paralysis aren't that broken depending on how they work.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Why would they be banned? If you can't deal with those abilities then its a stomp.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dark No, im saying the opposite, im saying that speed amps should be allowed.

By the logic of not allowing speed amps we shouldnt allow any of those other things but we do.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If someone blitzes someone else it's a stomp and it shouldn't be added.

Correction: Blitzes, as so that the other does not have a win condition.

 

[Kaltias]

Why? All you have to do is find a match where the opponent can fight back in some ways.

Obviously you don't put someone with instant time stop that they spam against Saitama or whatever, but that's just common sense

 

[Kaltias]

@Iap

Yeah, I meant "blitzes and proceeds to win instantly with the other being unable to fight back"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I don't think it was ever suggestion in the OP that speed amps are banned; only that character A's time manipulation makes them overwhelmingly more overpowered counts as a stomp. So Kaltias is making sense here.