Space-Time? That's Small!..... What now? | Type 2 Beyond Dimensional Existence/1-A Pre-Genesis Archie Sonic and Post Genesis Wave Downgrade

[Ultima_Reality]

Even if it is in reference to "Time doesnt pass for me" doesnt the usage of "Concept of Time" imply The Concept of Time exist

I mean, yeah, "The mental notion of time" obviously exists, but that doesn't mean anything for the purposes of scaling a character who is the source of everything.

Alright maybe that scan wasent the best scan to use, but theres this one saying everything originated from The Source. Also in the same scan it's said to be everything, not just the foundation

Makes no difference, really.

 

[Eseseso]

So...can this be closed?

 

[FaceOff81]

I said the exact opposite. A realm being non-physical and also being referred to as "higher" in some way doesn't fit the bill. Why would it?

If I recall correctly, you said:

Depends entirely on what the "superiority" in question consists of. All that's been shown so far only indicates that the Chaos Force is more powerful than everything else in the cosmology, which is a necessary condition for 1-A but obviously not a sufficient one.

That's why I thought you said it was one of the necessary conditions for being 1-A.
I also recall you saying:

Largely, being 1-A necessitates being of a different nature from anything in a lower reality, and this difference in nature being the cause of your superiority over it (e.g. A realm being aspatial and atemporal, and being portrayed as in some way "vaster" or "larger" than spatiotemporal objects due to that nature). Nothing here in particular suggests as much.

What do you qualify as "vaster" or "larger" in this context in being classified as 1-A let alone Low 1-A?

How exactly would "Is aspatial and atemporal + Big AP feats" help prove 1-A? This is just a non-sequitur.

With what has been accepted in the cosmology so far along with the amount of statements depicting the beings of the Next Evolution and the Chaos Force viewing the concept of time and residing in a plane where time is irrelevant to them along with beings residing in the Chaos Force being able to break reality as a whole, I'd figure they would at least qualify as Low 1-A.

Depends on the exact content of said WoG.

What context and what conent would be acceptable in this case?

The exact statement says that it exists "outside time-space." There is no information there on whether that refers to space and time in general or to the spacetime continuum of the multiverse, as said. "Spacetime" can conceivably refer to both, but in lieu of further context (Which is absent here), we go with the latter reading.

What further exactly and why are you assuming we should go with th elatter reading?

No, not really. A realm being incomprehensible doesn't really mean that it fits the bill for the type of superiority required for 1-A. Why would it? What would said can also be true of anything with basic Type 1 BDE.

But in order for that realm to be "vaster" or "larger" along with being incomprehensible would fit the bill fir 1-A?

 

[FaceOff81]

I mean, yeah, "The mental notion of time" obviously exists, but that doesn't mean anything for the purposes of scaling a character who is the source of everything.

How?

Makes no difference, really.

Why?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Not that I disagree with Ultima. However, he clearly needs to differentiate and explain better what he means for what does qualify for “superiority” because it looks like it goes both ways unless he’s purposefully cherry-picking.

 

[Brogeefrong]

I mean, yeah, "The mental notion of time" obviously exists, but that doesn't mean anything for the purposes of scaling a character who is the source of everything.

Why? Wouldnt the Source be responsible for Time? Also isnt Mental Notion a more specific thing, while Concept is more General

Makes no difference, really.

I mean it says everything came from the source of all, and I dont see why cant be considered so

And if it's any notable, The Source of All created Maginaryworld which is a Type 1 Concept

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That's why I thought you said it was one of the necessary conditions for being 1-A.

A necessary condition, not a sufficient one.

With what has been accepted in the cosmology so far along with the amount of statements depicting the beings of the Next Evolution and the Chaos Force viewing the concept of time and residing in a plane where time is irrelevant to them along with beings residing in the Chaos Force being able to break reality as a whole, I'd figure they would at least qualify as Low 1-A.

Why would it? The "Concept of time is irrelevant" business is something that has already long been addressed as of no worth, so I'm not sure why it keeps being brought up.

What do you qualify as "vaster" or "larger" in this context in being classified as 1-A let alone Low 1-A?

I already said as much:

It's really something that you'd only get through statements, the vast majority of the time. If the Chaos Force was described as aspatial, atemporal, etc. and there was also a statement analogizing its relationship to normal reality to a size-like one (e.g. It's described as rendering reality as tiny in comparison), that'd be more or less a slam dunk.

And from the BDE page:

Furthermore, keep in mind that Type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence (In particular the latter variant) is not simply a combination of a non-dimensional state of existence and greater raw power than all dimensional structures in a cosmology – Though that is a necessary condition to qualify for it, it is not a sufficient one. Instead, the non-dimensional state of existence must be the direct cause of the character/realm's superiority over dimensions. A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop.

What context and what conent would be acceptable in this case?

Point me to the WoG statements in question and we'll figure out whether they have anything of interest.

What further exactly and why are you assuming we should go with th elatter reading?

Why exactly would you assume the higher-end reading of the text when the lower-end one is equally plausible? There's nothing indicating that it's referring to spacetime as a general attribute as opposed to the spatiotemporal structure of the multiverse alone.

But in order for that realm to be "vaster" or "larger" along with being incomprehensible would fit the bill fir 1-A?

I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase it?

Why? Wouldnt the Source be responsible for Time? Also isnt Mental Notion a more specific thing, while Concept is more General

I mean it says everything came from the source of all, and I dont see why cant be considered

Yeah, the contention is whether time in general comes from it or just the particular temporal structure of the universe/multiverse.

"A mental notion" is also just what the word "Concept" means.

And if it's any notable, The Source of All created Maginaryworld which is a Type 1 Concept

Can you direct me to scans relating to that?

 

[Livinmeme]

Furthermore, keep in mind that Type 2 Beyond-Dimensional Existence (In particular the latter variant) is not simply a combination of a non-dimensional state of existence and greater raw power than all dimensional structures in a cosmology – Though that is a necessary condition to qualify for it, it is not a sufficient one. Instead, the non-dimensional state of existence must be the direct cause of the character/realm's superiority over dimensions. A simple example being voids of nothingness that lack space, time and physicality entirely, but are nonetheless "vaster" than physical reality in some way, with common imagery being the universe as a small object encompassed in such a backdrop.

You just contradicted yourself, you said that to have BDE2, and outversal you need to be dimensionless, and of greater power than the hierarchy of dimensions, while also being trascendental...Uh...The reasons the Chaos force is 7-D is because it is absolutely transcendental over everything in Sanic cosmology (except the r>f plane whose name I have forgotten), anyways, I agree

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You just contradicted yourself, you said that to have BDE2, and be outversal you need to be dimensionless, and of greater power than the hierarchy of dimensions, while also being trascendental...Uh...The reasons the Chaos force is 7-D is because it is absolutely transcendental over everything in Sanic cosmology

How exactly am I contradicting myself? What I said and what I quoted from the BDE page are basically the exact same thing.

And I mean. I won't lie, if this is the same evidence used for 1-C, then I'd say even that is unwarranted. But regardless, the type of "transcendence" required of 1-A is different from the type required of the lower stuff in Tier 1, so it doesn't matter whether the Chaos Force is accepted as 7-D for the same reasons, really.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

(except the r>f plane whose name I have forgotten), anyways, I agree

Off-Panel

 

[Theuser789]

If this was rejected, then can this be closed? I don't see any progress being done.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Stop trying to rush the thread's closure, let it finish naturally, there's still things being argued here.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Yeah, the contention is whether time in general comes from it or just the particular temporal structure of the universe/multiverse.

The term "Concept of Time" is used, rather then just Time, at worst I think it should still fall under a Possibly/Likely

Can you direct me to scans relating to that?

This Profile and This blog

 

[Starsprite53]

The term "Concept of Time" is used, rather then just Time, at worst I think it should still fall under a Possibly/Likely

This is misleading because the "concept of time" was used ina different scenerio and context.
Your argument is a clear overreach. This phrase, in reality, doesn't imply any conceptual transcendence over time. When Knuckles apologized for making Mathias wait, and the echidna responded that time is irrelevant, it's more likely an expression of detachment from physical concerns after ascending to the astral plane (because he said he did that in another issue) Rather than what are you trying to argue here, because dis satement reflects a common metaphor used in everyday language to suggest that time no longer holds the same importance for a being who has left behind their physical body.

 

[Brogeefrong]

This is misleading because the "concept of time" was used ina different scenerio and context.
Your argument is a clear overreach. This phrase, in reality, doesn't imply any conceptual transcendence over time. When Knuckles apologized for making Mathias wait, and the echidna responded that time is irrelevant, it's more likely an expression of detachment from physical concerns after ascending to the astral plane (because he said he did that in another issue) Rather than what are you trying to argue here, because dis satement reflects a common metaphor used in everyday language to suggest that time no longer holds the same importance for a being who has left behind their physical body.

I'm not using that statement for Conceptual Transcendence, rather I'm using that scan to prove the Concept of Time is in the cosmology, and instead getting transcendence via the Chaos Force being referred to as superior to everything in the verse

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I'm not using that statement for Conceptual Transcendence, rather I'm using that scan to prove the Concept of Time is in the cosmology, and instead getting transcendence via the Chaos Force being referred to as superior to everything in the verse

in the cosmology as much as the idea of time flowing and aging exists in the minds of the people

 

[FaceOff81]

Point me to the WoG statements in question and we'll figure out whether they have anything of interest.

I want to propose some questions towards Ian Flynn (WoG in this context) regarding the following:

The wording of Time-Space in regards to the Chaos Force

The Next Evolution and it's inhabitants and how they view/are above time (which by proxy would include the Chaos Force and the beings that reside in it themselves)

The Chaos Force potentially being classified as being "vaster" or "bigger" than everything else within the cosmology.


The thing is, I want to word each question where it is neutral and where it can be presented to where he understands what he's answering so that way no confusion or misleading context would be placed.

Why exactly would you assume the higher-end reading of the text when the lower-end one is equally plausible? There's nothing indicating that it's referring to spacetime as a general attribute as opposed to the spatiotemporal structure of the multiverse alone.

Wouldn't that mean that if both are equally plausible that would mean that neither interpretation be used?
Or, wouldn't that mean viewing it as such would be more subjective and you could take it or leave it as either?
Let me get this straight, if it is referring to spacetime as a general attribute as within the cosmology would it have more merit?

I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase it?

What I mean is, if the Chaos Force had statements that said it was incomprehensible and was classified as "vaster" or "larger" in comparison to everything else in the comsology, would that fit more criteria for 1-A?

What you mean by "larger", you mean explicitly to the point where they view the multiverse as incredibly small to where it's just a tiny object correct?

Can you elaborate on the "vaster" definition?

I don't know if I mentioned this or not, but the Blog also has confirmation that events from Sonic Generations had taken place in Pre-Genesis Wave which contains a Non-Existent Realm called White Space where time and space are completely erased. That was put to be below the Chaos Force as it governed all of reality within the Cosmology. The thing is, it doesn't depict the universe or multiverse as this tiny object so based off of what you're telling me from the BDE page, would that make it a disqualifier for 1-A on those bounds?

 

[FaceOff81]

Off-Panel

Oh boy.......that's a discussion topic for another CRT thread.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I want to propose some questions towards Ian Flynn (WoG in this context) regarding the wording of Time-Space in regards to the Chaos Force, the Next Evolution and it's inhabitants and how they view/are above time (which by proxy would include the Chaos Force and the beings that reside in it themselves), and the Chaos Force potentially being classified as being "vaster" or "bigger" than everything else within the cosmology.

You can't do that, sorry. If you did, the subsequent replies you're given would just be ignored.

Let me get this straight, if it is referring to spacetime as a general attribute as within the cosmology would it have more merit?

If it's referring to space and time as a whole and not just the particular spacetime structure of the multiverse, then it would have more merit, yeah. The former rules out the possibility that the Chaos Force is just another spatiotemporal structure in-and-of-itself. The latter doesn't.

Can you elaborate on the "vaster" definition?

Same thing. In general, the "structure" of the aspatial realm itself would have to be demonstrated as dwarfing that of the multiverse.

That was put to be below the Chaos Force as it governed all of reality within the Cosmology. The thing is, it doesn't depict the universe or multiverse as this tiny object so based off of what you're telling me from the BDE page, would that make it a disqualifier for 1-A on those bounds?

It would not be 1-A, no.

 

[FaceOff81]

You can't do that, sorry. If you did, the subsequent replies you're given would just be ignored.

I don't understand why I cannot do that and why they would be ignored.

If it's referring to space and time as a whole and not just the particular spacetime structure of the multiverse, then it would have more merit, yeah. The former rules out the possibility that the Chaos Force is just another spatiotemporal structure in-and-of-itself. The latter doesn't.

Thank you for clarifying.

Same thing. In general, the "structure" of the aspatial realm itself would have to be demonstrated as dwarfing that of the multiverse.

Thank you for clarifying.

It would not be 1-A, no.

Is it the same reasoning as it being constituted as a space-time continuum or a different reason?

 

[Theuser789]

Stop trying to rush the thread's closure, let it finish naturally, there's still things being argued here.

I only made one post, but fine. Let's see where it goes. No harm in trying. Good luck to everyone here.

 

[Starsprite53]

I don't understand why I cannot do that and why they would be ignored

Because leading questions aren't allowed here

 

[FaceOff81]

Because leading questions aren't allowed here

How can I ask the questions without it being a leading or biased questions then?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

How can I ask the questions without it being a leading or biased questions then?

Dont. You're still ultimately gonna be asking it with the intent of scaling.

 

[FaceOff81]

Dont. You're still ultimately gonna be asking it with the intent of scaling.

How am I let alone anyone else able to have details cleared up then? I thought asking WoG is a valid source in doing so (before you ask, no I didn't ask any questions yet)? If that isn’t the case, then when can asking WoG or using WoG statements apply then?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

How am I let alone anyone else able to have details cleared up then?

you just let it be and use available material

If that isn’t the case, then when can asking WoG or using WoG statements apply then?

when it's a concise or deliberate answer while also not being asked by a scaler and when it's not a leading question.

 

[FaceOff81]

when it's a concise or deliberate answer while also not being asked by a scaler or when it's a leading question.

Is there guidlines for this being present on the wiki at all?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Editing Rules

The VS Battles Wiki presently consists of 35,212 pages, most of them listing the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. However, there is a tremendous amount of work involved in maintaining the accuracy of statistics and upholding a high quality for the profiles. In...

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Site Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is a community with a large number of active users, most of whom are dedicated to discussing and indexing statistics of characters from a variety of fictional franchises. However, maintaining proper conduct and behavior among the large and active user base of this community...

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Is there guidlines for this being present on the wiki at all?

 

[FaceOff81]

Editing Rules

The VS Battles Wiki presently consists of 35,212 pages, most of them listing the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. However, there is a tremendous amount of work involved in maintaining the accuracy of statistics and upholding a high quality for the profiles. In...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Site Rules

The VS Battles Wiki is a community with a large number of active users, most of whom are dedicated to discussing and indexing statistics of characters from a variety of fictional franchises. However, maintaining proper conduct and behavior among the large and active user base of this community...

vsbattles.fandom.com

So much for asking questions towards WoG then.

 

[Starsprite53]

So much for asking questions towards WoG then.

Why are you desperately trying to ask WoG instead of using the avaiable source material?

 

[FaceOff81]

Why are you desperately trying to ask WoG instead of using the avaiable source material?

I figured it would help the case here but apparently it’s against site rules. Regarding already available source material, that is currently getting spearheaded by Brogeefrong since he helped create the Blog so I’ll let him handle the reigns from here on out.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Is a "possibly" on the table here?

 

[FaceOff81]

Is a "possibly" on the table here?

I say we wait on Brogeefrong’s input before moving on since there should be at least some merit with Low 1-A.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This Profile and This blog

If you ask me for my full opinion, this isn't even Conceptual Manipulation in the first place. But, ignoring that: Yeah, nothing useful here.

Is it the same reasoning as it being constituted as a space-time continuum or a different reason?

Do you have the scans on you?

 

[FaceOff81]

Do you have the scans on you?

It should be in the Blog posted on the first place. Other than that, there is a Cosmology thread talking about White Space in Sonic Generstions and its tiering/properties.

Sonic the Hedgehog (Game) Cosmology Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It should be in the Blog posted on the first place. Other than that, there is a Cosmology thread talking about White Space in Sonic Generstions and its tiering/properties.

Yeah, it's just stated to lack time, and from what I can gather, it's currently considered as part of a higher temporal dimension, so, yeah, nothing.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think a voting consensus is due now since both parties don’t seem to agree with each other.

 

[Eseseso]

No staff agree with this, lock it up.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

No staff agree with this, lock it up.

Why are you in more of a rush than everyone else? This is your only contribution to the debate