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A plane where those who are chosen to become one with The Chaos Force go to
And to clarify, No it's not a disqualifier, because The Virtual Zone isnt on the same plane of existence of The Chaos Force
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Space-Time? That's Small!..... What now? | Type 2 Beyond Dimensional Existence/1-A Pre-Genesis Archie Sonic and Post Genesis Wave Downgrade
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And to clarify, No it's not a disqualifier, because The Virtual Zone isnt on the same plane of existence of The Chaos Force
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We'll need to wait
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ive been here waiting for the longest time i cant believe its real
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I think you should put a note about the Virtual Zone in the blog, i don't think Ultima is going to know what it means without context.
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The virtual zone itself really isnt that important within the blog, though i think just saying "They were not in The Chaos Force" for the ancient walker stuff, would be more clear and simpler
GlaceonGamez471
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Anyways, gonna stay neutral and watch this since I'm not particularly knowledgeable on Archie. 1-A Sanic would be funny tho
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I agree with the Pre-Genesis upgrade but I'm neutral about the post-genesis downgrade
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Damn
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how long has it been
ShakeResounding
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Patience is key
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So, I went through the positive justifications in the blog, will go through the preemptive responses to anti-feats later if needed or if I feel like it. But, so far:
Yeah, that doesn't really warrant anything. "Concept," our wiki's weird usage of the term notwithstanding, primarily refers to a mental notion or idea, and there are many, many ways in which mental notions can be made irrelevant in one way or another (e.g. One might say that most powerscalers have lost all concept of scale). So, absent of further context, all he's saying is that the passage of time isn't really something that registers to him anymore.
Yeah, that's meaningless as far as evidence for 1-A is concerned.
Yeah, that's not really anything relevant, either. "Transcend" is a buzzword with no meaning of its own absent of further context (Of which there is none, here) and something being outside of spacetime isn't inherently any tier.
Yeah, that doesn't really warrant anything. "Concept," our wiki's weird usage of the term notwithstanding, primarily refers to a mental notion or idea, and there are many, many ways in which mental notions can be made irrelevant in one way or another (e.g. One might say that most powerscalers have lost all concept of scale). So, absent of further context, all he's saying is that the passage of time isn't really something that registers to him anymore.
Yeah, that's meaningless as far as evidence for 1-A is concerned.
Yeah, that's not really anything relevant, either. "Transcend" is a buzzword with no meaning of its own absent of further context (Of which there is none, here) and something being outside of spacetime isn't inherently any tier.
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aaaand there goes 1-A archie
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What about the part where, The Next Evolution is above The Plane where Time originated from?
It's called Beyond and Higher alongside being "Transcendent" is that not worthy context?
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Yeah, no.
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Absolutely heart-breaking. I really believed (even though I barely know jack-shit about 1-A)
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I believed too a little bit, like if Arceus could get it I genuinely thought Sonic could.
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While "Higher Plane" alone may not imply transcendence alone, For The Chaos Force, the statement is along side being called "Beyond" 'Transcendent", and Outside, it's even said to be beyond The Afterlife like Realm, The Next Evolution
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Yeah, these additional descriptions don't really make the case any better.
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How exactly?
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I understand your perspective here, but within the same scan The Next Evolution's inhabitants talk about being in that said higher plane of existence. That said higher plane of existence is above the Source of All. As the Source of All is everything within the mortal realm which includes time as shown in the blog, I don't see why the Statements regarding the Next Evolution beings and how time is irrelevant to them along with being above the concept of time shouldn't also be taken as literal.
How so? If it isn't, then what would be classified as such in order to fit the definition? I ask this because the guidelines within the tiering system for Low 1-A, 1-A, and High 1-A are a little confusing to follow especiall with how this blog was made with meeting those guidelines in mind.
I don't see how transcend used the scans in the blog as meant a buzzword in the scans present especially when there are consistent showings and statements about using the word transcend is used interchangably in the same context as the word ascend when talking about ascending into higher planes of reality.
How does being outside of spacetime isn't inherently any tier exactly?
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Screw it. Not losing hope yet. I think FaceOff brings some good points.
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If QS is off the table, what about Low 1-A? The Chaos Force would still encompass the Concept of Time and where it originated from, and still be superior, even if not entirely qualitatively so
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That's just a non-sequitur. "Other pieces of information tell us that this plane is above something that's the source of time" doesn't lead to what is being argued in the blog. That's just unrelated information.
The Chaos Force binding everything together only tells us about its causal power, which doesn't mean much as far as evidence for 1-A goes (Why would it?). I don't really know what you expect to get from "The Force is all," either.
Why would it? Being aspatial and atemporal doesn't mean being superior to space and time, and by that token, any statement of being beyond/outside/etc of those isn't any tier, either.
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It's more than just being above the source of time. It's being above the concept of time, higher dimensional planes of reality, the multiverse itself, and a plane of nothingness of white space (as implied by the events of Sonic Generations taking place in the continuity). Of course, when I say this, I'm talking about the The Next Evolution and the Chaos Force. I'd say it's relevant given how the guildelines explicitly pointed out that these higher dimensional planes and their statements supporting them indicate superiority over "All of space and time," and similar from what I've gather reading through the blog a lot.
What makes you think its only talking about its casual power? The way the Cosmology for Archie Sonic is set up is where The Chaos Force is at the very top of the higher dimensional foodchain where beings classified in that realm is incomprehensible to those who are not within it. The Next Evolution being below that with the conceptual void of nothingness from Sonic Generations below that. Below that we have the conceptual realm of Maginaryworld. Below that, we have Maginaryworld powering other higher dimensional planes of existence classified as extradimensional. Below that we have the Source of All where everything encompassing it is the mortal multiverse which includes time itself along with uncountably infinite universeses is below that. As we've seen from the blog the Chaos Force binds/encompasses the entire cosmology itself in both a literal and figurative sense as seen with many Chaos Force deities being able tto completely decimate lower realms in the comics. This interpretation of it using it's casual power doesn't really sit right given how the Chaos Force has consistantly been potrayed as the literal highest dimensional plane of existence that has binded all of the Archie Comoslogy throughout the entire Pre-Genesis run.
Aspatial: not spatial : not relating to, limited to, or associated with a particular space or area
Atemporal: : independent of or unaffected by time : timeless
Well...I see within the BDE Type 2 Page it states "As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar."
With the Chaos Force already being accepted as a Type 1 Concept, I don't see how the Chaos Force wouldn't qualify for 1-A let alone Low 1-A as shown with what the blog has presented. This is especially apparent when it has been consistently mentioned that this plane of existence as the main source of where a grand majority of the higher dimensional beings reside in. Just like with the how the wording of transcendence has been interchanged with ascendance when talking about ascending into higher planes with reality/beyond dimensions in the Archie Continuity, I believe the same token should be applied with The Chaos Force being classified as beyond dimensions and space-time (which includes conceptual domains) based off of the guidelines previously laid out in the Tiering System and BDE Type 2 pages. It also doesn't really make sense narratively if it isn't labeled as such given how often they've consistently allueded to it being the highest tier in an already complex and higher dimensional cosmology the Archie Continuity is. That's not even going over the Sonic Live, Images Comics Verse, and Off-Panel sections of the cosmology but truth be told that's a CRT for another time and another place
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Type 1 BDE also involves being aspatial and atemporal.
Being a Type 1 Concept can get you to 1-A but doesn't inherently do that, so I'd have to look at the actual evidence to see. The rest is just a long-winded way of saying "The Chaos Force is the highest thing in the cosmology," which doesn't mean anything for the purposes of this thread.
By "Causal power," I mean "The ability to exert influence over reality." With that in mind, this entire thing has no useful information whatsoever.
None of the evidence presented remotely suggests anything to that effect, or anything beyond Type 1 Beyond-Dimensional Existence.
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Which the Chaos Force qualifies for and has been shown to be superior to literally everything else in the cosmology. Hence it should at least qualify as either Type 1 or 2 (I’ve been more convinced with 2 after reading the blog).
The actual evidence present surrounding this seems pretty strong and from what I’ve read through the guidelines in the tiering system, it meets the definitions given through the guidelines. My issue is that you’re chalking up a lot of statements as spectacularly or greatly out of context when I’ve found that those same statements and scans is contradictory to how the Archie Cosmology was set up in the first place.
That is true the Chaos Force can do that, but its reach in terms of reality is far greater that just exerting influence over reality. Such as Mammoth Mogul became one with the Chaos Force, Killed the Ancient Walker, and planned to destroy the entire multiverse along with Super Sonic literally nuked the entire cosmology with Chaos Control which included Chaos Force. I think that’s far more impressive and powerful than just exerting influence over reality.
If you really believe that, then what are you looking for that does qualify as such? I’m getting mixed signals here because every time I read through the blog and Vs Wiki tiering guidelines, the conclusions of it being Type 1 BDE let alone in the Low 1-A to 1-A sphere is pretty solid.
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Depends entirely on what the "superiority" in question consists of. All that's been shown so far only indicates that the Chaos Force is more powerful than everything else in the cosmology, which is a necessary condition for 1-A but obviously not a sufficient one. Largely, being 1-A necessitates being of a different nature from anything in a lower reality, and this difference in nature being the cause of your superiority over it (e.g. A realm being aspatial and atemporal, and being portrayed as in some way "vaster" or "larger" than spatiotemporal objects due to that nature). Nothing here in particular suggests as much.
Feel free to present it here.
Not particularly, at least not when you're trying to prove 1-A. "Is aspatial and atemporal + Can affect the entire multiverse" isn't really grounds for that.
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The Chaos Force and The Next Evolution have obviously been portrayed as higher dimensional existences in the Archie Continuity. Primarily, the two most highest realms. That we can agree on from what I’ve been able to understand. From what I’ve gather from the blog with statements such as transcending/ascending into these said higher planes of reality beyond mortal comprehension, spatially, and temporally should also have some merit here for getting closer to 1-A. The only thing missing from your perspective here to make the Chaos Force 1-A in particular is it needing to be “vaster” or “larger” than spatiotemporal objects which I assume would include lower dimensions. To that I ask you, how and what would that look like in this case? I ask this because with the Chaos Force binding all of the Archie Cosmology together through multiple statements, how the cosmology is structured with it acting as the highest dimensional plane of existence being able to greatly affect the entire cosmology as a whole, I don’t see how that it wouldn’t qualify for being “vaster” or “larger” especially when the lower realms of the Archie Cosmology has been classified as uncountably infinite at just the base multiversal level.
I’m doing the best of my ability here.
If that isn’t, what is? From what I’ve seen, it’s at least a major qualifier to have when proving 1-A let alone Low 1-A.
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Not particularly, no.
It's not.
It's really something that you'd only get through statements, the vast majority of the time. If the Chaos Force was described as aspatial, atemporal, etc (Which, come to think of it, there aren't any statements of, from what I see. "Outside time-space" is ambiguous on whether it refers to spacetime as a general thing or the particular structure of the multiverse). and there was also a statement analogizing its relationship to normal reality to a size-like one (e.g. It's described as rendering reality as tiny in comparison), that'd be more or less a slam dunk.
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It's beyond The Source of All, which is presumably responsible for Time and Space as a whole, and The Concept of Time is referenced within the Verse
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How come? I thought you said that was one of the main conditions for proving 1-A. From my understanding, it seems to me you don't like how the wording of "transcendence"/"ascendance", "outside of time-space", and how the word"concept"/"conceptual" are being used in the Archie Continuity clashing with how those guidelines regarding those words are setup here. The way I'm viewing this is that given what has already been accepeted in the cosmology thread and the Blog, I don't see how those wordings of "transcendence"/"ascendance", "outside of time-space", and "concept" wouldn't apply here.
Again, I just don't see how. I think how the wording is used in conjuction with the cosmology does meet the guidelines.
Would statements from Ian Flynn (WoG) confirming the Chaos Force and Next Evolution being outside of time and space along with being vaster and/or larger than all other realms in the cosmology help make this a stronger case?
Other than that, I don't see anything ambiguous regarding the scan detailing that the Chaos Force being a realm outside time and space in conjunction with what has already been accepted in terms of the already existing cosmology. This is especially apparent when there are higher dimensional realms below the Next Evolution let alone the Chaos Force where they bridge the gulf between time and space itself with the Source of All being containing the mortal multiverse (which would include time itself).
Archie Sonic the Hedgehog's Cosmology (Pre-SGW)
vsbattles.fandom.com
From what has been accepted so far, I believe the context provided here is that it is the particular structure of the multiverse. I highly reccommend you read through the cosmology thread if you haven't already.
Well....the beings in the Chaos Force are considered to be incomprehensible to beings in lower realms (at least in the mortal realm as Amoura appeared as a dream in Knuckles' father's dream). Chaos Knuckles had already trasncended into a higher plane of existence and he was only able to comprehend what he can preceive of Amoura leaving their true forms much more abstract as Amoura was apart of the Chaos Force. With that information in mind, that should warrant the Chaos Force not only being above all of those dimensional planes in the Cosmology, but also qualifies for viewing reality as tiny in comparision (especially when you get to feats with Mammoth Mogul casually grabbing a universe (or multi-verse zone in that context) and decimating it.
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Bump, also I feel as this is important to note, that 1-A is being argued based on Low 1-A reasonings that are on a Conceptual Realm
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I agree with Ultima. The Chaos force doesn't have any feats that would show superiority to dimensions. I disagree with this thread.
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As a default, statements of being "above dimensions" are set at Low 1-A, and the same is applied to statements indicating superiority over "All of space and time," and similar.
The Chaos Force binds and is higher then the Concept of Time and Space
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Which, considering it's called a higher plane of existence, is nether aspatial nor atemporal.
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How? It's Higher then them, so Time and space doesnt reach it, and it's even itself refered to as outside of Time and Space
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I said the exact opposite. A realm being non-physical and also being referred to as "higher" in some way doesn't fit the bill. Why would it?
How exactly would "Is aspatial and atemporal + Big AP feats" help prove 1-A? This is just a non-sequitur.
Depends on the exact content of said WoG.
The exact statement says that it exists "outside time-space." There is no information there on whether that refers to space and time in general or to the spacetime continuum of the multiverse, as said. "Spacetime" can conceivably refer to both, but in lieu of further context (Which is absent here), we go with the latter reading.
I already addressed the "concept of time" thing. It's pretty irrelevant. The Source of All is also just described as the foundation of everything in the universe, which definitely isn't enough to infer that it's the basis of time as a general attribute and not just the concrete spacetime of the mortal realm.
No, not really. A realm being incomprehensible doesn't really mean that it fits the bill for the type of superiority required for 1-A. Why would it? What would said can also be true of anything with basic Type 1 BDE.
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Is he aware of this? Doesnt seem he acknowledged it
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Even if it is in reference to "Time doesnt pass for me" doesnt the usage of "Concept of Time" imply The Concept of Time exist
Alright maybe that scan wasent the best scan to use, but theres this one saying everything originated from The Source. Also in the same scan it's said to be everything, not just the foundation
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