Soul Manipulation and The Real World

[Wokistan]

So we don't default this. Also not relevant cause 1-A

Same.

The way a spatial dimension is defined causes it to be something we consider as existent.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

>Use science, physics and maths for our calcs to determine ratings.

>Use beliefs not founded on any science to determine the existence of souls.

I hard disagree with souls being assumed for real world living things. You can't prove they exist nor that there is something of equivalence that exists. There is nothing to equalize and we're not just going to slap a belief as "fact" for all real life living things, especially since we can't prove it's existence nor something of equivalence.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

Isn't this some what a controversial issue? I am just asking in a general sense, because many people believe in souls. I am not saying it is, I am just confused.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Prove platonic concepts exist

Prove life force exists

Prove spatial dimensions exist

This reply.

Concepts exist.

What?

....

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Let me rephrase that. Prove spatial dimensions above the 3rd exists.

 

[Wokistan]

Solipsism battles wiki

 

[Sera_EX]

Cal, you've been here longing than I have. You should know our name was decided by the wiki founder years ago before we even became an indexing site. The name was chosen back in the "Rip off OBD days". We are an indexing site. Period. Our vs matches are not an attraction of our viewers it's an attraction of our community. People care about our pages.

 

[Wokistan]

Spatial dimensions aren't really that important here anyways though, as they are not something intrinsic to the individual. That is solved by the whole neutral setting deal.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

People, we're not talking about proving anything exists, we're talking about what assumptions should be made in a versus match. "Everything has a soul unless proven otherwise" is a standard we have, so we should be discussing what we should do about that instead of talking about phylosophical meta stuff.

 

[Sera_EX]

>Use science, physics and maths for our calcs to determine ratings.

>Use beliefs not founded on any science to determine the existence of souls.

I hard disagree with souls being assumed for real world living things. You can't prove they exist nor that there is something of equivalence that exists. There is nothing to equalize and we're not just going to slap a belief as "fact" for all real life living things, especially since we can't prove it's existence nor something of equivalence.

^^^

 

[Wokistan]

But that's important to what we decide as the standard, and how it meshes with existing ones.

 

[Agnaa]

People, we're not talking about proving anything exists, we're talking about what assumptions should be made in a versus match. "Everything has a soul unless proven otherwise" is a standard we have, so we should be discussing what we should do about that instead of talking about phylosophical meta stuff.

I don't want to be dragged into meta stuff, but that's the only way it can be justified for real world characters to not be assumed to have souls, while fictional characters are.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I promise you that if you asked any lurker, their first entrance here was for a versus debate. Our pages are important. Never said otherwise. And yes, I know the story of our name. We consider ourselves an indexing site, sure, but our name gets thrown around with all the other battle boards. We're both, whether we like it or not, because that's what the public perceives us as.

 

[Agnaa]

>Use science, physics and maths for our calcs to determine ratings.

>Use beliefs not founded on any science to determine the existence of souls.

I hard disagree with souls being assumed for real world living things. You can't prove they exist nor that there is something of equivalence that exists. There is nothing to equalize and we're not just going to slap a belief as "fact" for all real life living things, especially since we can't prove it's existence nor something of equivalence.

1. Nothing can determine the existence of souls.

2. You can't prove that concepts exist, and if we go down the solipsism train, we can't prove that nearly anything exists.

3. There does not have to be something to equalize for souls/concepts/plot manip/etc. There only needs to be something to equalize if only some characters in a verse have something, i.e. stands, ki.

4. We're not slapping it as a fact that everything IRL has souls, the same way we're not slapping it as a fact that every fictional verse that doesn't mention souls has souls.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

I keep my stance from the last thread.
Let's call the random real life human in this scenario Ralph.

• Ralph can't be mindhaxed we emotion haxed because there's no scientific proof that mental status and emotions are anything more than chemicals.
• Ralph can't have his life force screwed with because there's no proof of life force.
• People fighting Ralph have to do a set amount of damage (a city buster has to destroy a city with every one of his punches) because the AoE fallacy doesn't exist in the real world.
• Anyone with a set speed will automatically destroy Ralph and themselves as kinetic energy is a thing.
• Existence erasure and spatial deletion don't work on Ralph due to the law of conservation of mass/energy.
• Ralph can't have causality screwed with because [insert paradox here]

And many more

Just quoting this again because it's still completely relevant. If we do this for souls, and say they don't exist because "lol real life", what about the literally countless other powers? Does Superman suddenly lose all of his super strength just because someone decided to pit him against the real-life supermassive black hole in the center of the Milky Way, in a hypothetical scenario?

This sets a dangerous precedent, tbh, to the point I'd rather there not be real-life profiles at all, if that's the case.

 

[Sera_EX]

I promise you that if you asked any lurker, their first entrance here was for a versus debate. Our pages are important. Never said otherwise. And yes, I know the story of our name. We consider ourselves an indexing site, sure, but our name gets thrown around with all the other battle boards. We're both, whether we like it or not, because that's what the public perceives us as.

Yes love, whatever love wants.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

You could actually check Wok's response and see if you agree with that.

This feels like too simple of a "look at all the shit it'll be inviting in" without actually giving it a closer look. This feels like too many assumptions of "will this really work?" to cast negative doubt upon setting this as precedent. Which doesn't feel like a viable argument.

 

[Wokistan]

@Orc

I gave my opinions to that already. Give me a sec.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

-snip-

He isn't wrong, you know.

 

[Wokistan]

• This doesn't really impede mindhax, unless its like exclusively spiritual or something.
• Sure.
• Ralph isn't just carrying around the entire laws of reality with him. It's things specifically bound to the person thmself.
• Ditto.
• Spatial deletion and EE already don't obey these laws.
• Characters already weaponize paradoxes for this sort of thing.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Again our standards are that unless the verse straight up says no souls then they have them.

This works for the context of versus matches the same way we assume that concept manip, fate manip, information manip, and plot manip work unless the verse or character is specifically said to lack them

If this wasn't how the site worked characters like monika wouldn't have anything to manipulate and the numidium would actually be useless since no other verse has the potential for characters to zero sum

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Also, would this affect non-supernatural verses (like Tier 9 verses that get their combat from real world guns and stuff like that) since their setting is real lifeish?

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

@Lancelot and Wok:

If so, I probably missed them in the scroll, my bad.

 

[Agnaa]

You could actually check Wok's response and see if you agree with that.

This feels like too simple of a "look at all the shit it'll be inviting in" without actually giving it a closer look. This feels like too many assumptions of "will this really work?" to cast negative doubt upon setting this as precedent. Which doesn't feel like a viable argument.

It could work. It's an arbitrary choice either way. I don't think it's the right choice to cut out parts of a character's moveset because they're facing a thing from the real world. It's no longer a fight between that character and a real world thing on neutral ground, it's a fight between that character with a bunch of abilities restricted and a real world thing.

 

[Wokistan]

But remember, within the context of real proof standards, the answer for if real humans have these things defaults to a no.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

We're not using real proof standards tho, we're talking about the standards of the versus matches on this wiki when we don't know if the character has a soul or not; the current answer is "yes, they do".

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

@Lancelot and Wok:
If so, I probably missed them in the scroll, my bad.

No problem.

All in all, I honestly don't feel too strongly about this so I can understand if the evisioned alternatives are not accepted or it is deemed we are giving exceptions to real life profiles with no basis, but the whole issue and some of the counter arguments just rub me an odd way.

 

[Wokistan]

Why would we not use real proof standards when referring to reality?

Gtg for a bit. Please don't collapse.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I really don't like where this thread is going tbh. I truly see no need to change our standards over this crap (and yes, personally this topic is a waste of time and extremely controversial). I honestly am leaning towards just axing the RW files. Because, now we are going the whole "You don't have a soul vs I have a soul" debacle and this just doesn't seem worth it at all. Not to mention this is gonna be ripe for religious discussions (remember what happened last time) and beliefs, challenging one's beliefs or non beliefs...basically causing a bunch of unneeded controversy simply because we didn't want Composite Human to be harmed by Soul powers. At this point, I feel like this is getting too pretentious for my liking (you can all disagree)

I will keep advocating for keeping this shit the same as it always has been. But alas, this argument is going to go one for another crapton of comments, only to likely end up at a stalemate. But from my point of view, this is a waste of time.

That's my view.

 

[Wokistan]

I would be fine with making it one of those "OP specifies" things as said above (which is honestly probably the most reflective of all the differing perspectives) but people objected to that.

 

[Antoniofer]

We're not using real proof standards tho, we're talking about the standards of the versus matches on this wiki when we don't know if the character has a soul or not; the current answer is "yes, they do".

I'm good with the current answer. Otherwise it would be much more difficult to find matches to spirits, ghosts, undeads, angel, demons and any being from a verse thata acknowledge an afterlife or astral plane. Also, if is not by the soul, what differenciate an animal from a human?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

But from my point of view, this is a waste of time.

100% agree.

 

[Wokistan]

I'm good with the current answer. Otherwise it would be much more difficult to find matches to spirits, ghosts, undeads, angel, demons and any being from a verse thata acknowledge an afterlife or astral plane. Also, if is not by the soul, what differenciate an animal from a human?

IRL people having a soul wouldn't make spirits and stuff just fail in their presence.

Physical, cognitive, behavioural, etc traits. Also humans are considered an animal. ALso also a ton of philosophies asserts animal souls.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Why would we not use real proof standards when referring to reality?
Gtg for a bit. Please don't collapse.

A versus match that uses things from reallife is still a versus match, and the The Real World verse is still a verse like any other, so there's really no reason to throw the standards out of the window (except for things like outliers or calc stacking, but ignoring those are justifiable because there's a reason, that being how incredibly consistent real life is, but for verse equalization, there isn't any reason).

 

[Sera_EX]

100% agree.

1000% agree

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Why not just slap a "possibly" on the real life profiles for souls, Science and Spirituality go hand and hand sometimes depending on where your looking.

 

[Agnaa]

Why not just slap a "possibly" on the real life profiles for souls, Science and Spirituality go hand and hand sometimes depending on where your looking.

Because this also, on a smaller scale, applies to things like certain mechanisms of plot manip, memory manip, mind manip, EE, concept manip, and life manip.

We can't just give all the real life pages possible resistance to all these things, right?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I for one am for this and I can't wait to put sailor moon against sheogorath and claim she wins because there's no outerverse in her series.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think a character's cosmological structure is an intrinsic part of them now is it

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Agnaa A lot of the things you mentioned aren't really supported to be a thing in terms of "manipulation" of said things outside of fiction . But the existence of the soul can be compromised in my opinion since most of the real world population believes in its existence heavily I think.