Soul hax for Original Grimoire & those that relate to them (ToAru)

[DontTalkDT]

Reading Original Grimoires is most consistently stated to destroy the readers mind.

However, as early as Volume 5 it was also alluded to them even destroying the persons soul:

Each time he pulled the bow, the toxic grimoires started to flow into his mind page by page. Each page of poison started to flow in like milk mixing into coffee, fusing with Yamisaka's soul and corroding it.
	~ Volume 5 Chapter 4 Part 15​

Last time we debated this we rejected soul haxing grimoires. Reason for that is that this was a very isolated statement, with mind destruction being more common, making it highly likely that it was just a rhetorical device.

NT 21 might change that, though. In Chapter 1 Between the Lines 1 we get the following statement:

The greatest of those were helping to found the world's greatest cabal and translating original grimoires such as The Kabbalah Unveiled, The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage, and The Greater Key of Solomon. The originals were not just incomprehensible but also shattered the reader's soul with their toxic knowledge, so he converted them into a simpler form that anyone could read.

that again mentions the grimoires soul destruction.

With that the idea is more consistent, so I think we can accept soul hax for the grimoires now.

Who would that affect? Well, it means Fiamma has showings of basic resistance to soul destruction by resisting the grimoire poison.

More importantly Mina Mathers (Toaru) should get mind hax & soul hax since she actually uses her grimoire properties to attack. (Aside from that Mina's page also needs a key. First key is Toth Tarot second Grimoire version, yes?)

Would anyone else be affected by this?

 

[Accelerate420]

Anyone who has read a Grimoire and survived it without lasting and fatal effects (such as Fiamma who could read all of the Grimoire's without being affected). Etzali, I want to say would receive very minor resistance but that's debateable since he's still affected yet is able to carry its knowledge inside him without dying.

Would Mathers and Dion receive these too, considering they're Grimoire's as well? Or at least a resistance to them? I don't think they'd be affected by one considering they don't actually posess a soul, but are just walking cards with their personality coded into them and rely on Leylines to perform magic rather than refining from their soul.

Actually, with that Logic, wouldn't Dion and Mathers get a similar state to Kakine regarding Inorganic Physiology? This one may be a bit more complicated.

 

[Zensum]

Interesting, probably those and Index. I'd say Aleister too but I'll have to double check.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not Index. Index doesn't need to resist Grimoires, as the Grimoires want to be read by Index.

The only exception is that one time with Mina, but Mina made sure to damage nothing except the control program.

Similar I don't think Etzali. He would absolutely have died if the Grimoire didn't accept him.


Grimoire's probably can get Inorganic Physiology Type 1 or something similar. Don't think any except Mina should get the offense abilities, though, as only Mina actually uses those (and I don't know how Mathers or Dion would actually show their text to other people).

 

[Accelerate420]

Hmmm, that's true. I don't recall it being said that the Grimoire's wanted to be read by Index but the Etzali thing makes sense for sure. What about Mathers and Dion having Soul Resistance due to lacking one?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Probably.

 

[Zensum]

I believe grimoires only want to be read by Index because of this.


(So is it like forcefully running a program that isn't compatible with a computer's OS?) "My brain and spirit are protected by religious barriers, and magicians who attempt to exceed being human must exceed the boundaries of their own common knowledge to arrive at the desired state of mind that can almost be likened to a type of insanity. However, for a normal person from a barely religious country like Japan, it could all be over after just casting one more spell."

 

[Accelerate420]

So I think Mina, Mathers, Dion and any other living Tarot/Grimoire would technically get Inorganic Physiology due to technically not being alive?

We know that Magic needs to be refined through Lifeforce, which is refined through the soul. We know that Grimoire's like Dion and Mathers do this process through using the Leyline's as a means to use Magic instead due to the fact they aren't technically alive. Like Kakine, they're just Grimoire's/Tarots with the personalities of the originals coded into them like a program and aren't alive in a conventional sense. Which is why their physiology is also different, hence why Accel could do no direct damage to Mathers as well as him not caring about that LPR. This is also why they can be killed if they're attacked when stepping off a Leyline or having said source cut-off from them I:E when Kanzaki said she could kill Dion the very moment she attempts to which to another Leyline after moving. Is that sufficient enough reasoning?

That would fall under Type 2 technically, wouldn't it? If need be I can look for quotes to support this later, just a bit busy right now.

I know it's not exactly the topic of the post but since it's brought up I figured it'd be good to get a quick opinion?

 

[XDragnoir]

Btw, shouldn't Mina's speed be changed to Unknown? She blitzed a subrel character but is only MHS.

 

[Accelerate420]

Well she didn't speed blitz him. She just predicted and out-calculated his movements and actions. If she speed-blitzed Accel he'd be dead. But I guess it'd make sense for her to scale a bit or something due to still being able to react. Both weren't very serious though so, not sure about the procedure on that.

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, if just that fight they had was enough to scale her with Accel before, i don't think the scale is invalid now just because he was faster than we thought. Btw i agree with Inorganic P, I also think Qliphah can get this.

 

[Accelerate420]

Qliphah still has a soul and relies on the Qliphoth, so she doesn't fit it. She just spawns herself in the world with Trash but that doesn't mean they are inanimate or don't house her soul.

Eh, I guess so. I'd rather hear other peoples opinions on it though. I don't think it's the same since being able to read your opponents actions and moves 100 steps ahead doesn't equate to being as fast as them.

 

[XDragnoir]

I thought Qliphah could fit type 1 inorganic p.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That would fall under Type 2 technically, wouldn't it?

By strict definition it is type 1. They are things given life by supernatural means, not pure physical mechanisms. They especially clearly have a non-physical mind.

I think it's questionable that Qliphah fits the description. While she creates her body from trash she seems pretty organic. (Mathers & Co do as well, but we know they are actually still cards in that state)

 

[Accelerate420]

That makes sense, okay. Though I think they should still get resistance to soul, maybe mind hax above the standard magician kind due to lacking a brain and a soul. Since they're still produced through supernatural means.

 

[Accelerate420]

Living Objects: Inorganic objects given life by supernatural means. For example objects that were given a soul and through that were brought to life."

I suppose you could say Qliphah could fit that though it's iffy considering she's still alive even when her body is gone, just on a different material plane. I suppose we could consider her physical manifestation has having this trait?

 

[XDragnoir]

Qliphah doesn't looking like trash is probably for design sake (you know, Garbodor is literally trash, like Qliphah, and no one likes him), and since we are talking abou Inorganic, shouldn't Kazakiri also get this?

 

[Malox1696]

izzard made/read grimores right ?

 

[Zensum]

Yea, Izzard authored and translated iirc. I don't think this is enough for said resistance though.

 

[XDragnoir]

I think everyone who has interacted with grimoires should get at least a "possibly resistance" or just outright resistance to soul and mind hax. How many characters would be affected by this?

 

[Accelerate420]

That's not really how it works. Being accepted by a Grimoire and reading its contents are both very different things. Etzali for example would have no resistances as he's still affected by Grimoire's like in the fight against the other Aztec Magician. Anyone can be accepted by a grimoire so long as they have the intention of spreading its knowledge. They just can't read it and use it for themselves without the side-effects unless you're someone crazy like Fiamma.

 

[Malox1696]

well we know tho that in nt 18 mina wanted to make the others read how to remove the karma sword form maika and that still affected their mind so u gotta have some resistance to read it, not to use it tho

 

[Accelerate420]

Anyone can read it, it's not like it instantly kills you. That doesn't equate resistance. Not suffering the effects at all is a resistance. But yeah, using it doesn't require resistance.

 

[XDragnoir]

Actually, a lot of characters gain resistances by resisting some hax for small amounts of time, both not being affected and resisting for small amounts can grant resistance, the "potency" of the resistance being the only difference

 

[Accelerate420]

Grimoires still don't instantly kill you so that's different. They corrode you if anything. but just one line of one Grimoire is enough to nearly cripple an average human. Doesn't mean they get resistance. Unless you're seriously going to suggest that one dude from OT5 who tried to read a Grimoire in Index's head has soul and mind-hax resistance despite bleeding out of every single orfice from just reading a single line.

 

[XDragnoir]

This isn't what i tried to say, what i mean is that "fighting back" the ill effects after being affected should still grant at least a minor resistance. Sorry, my english isn't good enough yet.

 

[LazyHunter]

Yeah, grimoires don't instantly kill you or permanently corrupt your mind/soul, and characters have briefly interacted with them without lasting side effects. Short-time interaction basically results in strong migraines and internal bleeding as the mind tries to process the magical knowledge. It is when you keep on reading despite this that you end up dying, like the magicians in the Amakusa SS. The resistances should only go to those who are not affected by them (Fiamma was shielded from the side effects by Holy Right until he lost most of its power right at the end of his fight with Touma) or can handle longer interactions.

So in the end I would classify this as a resistance, but I wouldn't really try to use it to argue they can resist a dude just ripping or destroying their soul if said dude can easily do that kind of thing. It's just like the poison resistance of Academy City espers; it exists and it's mentioned to be decent, but they are still affected by fictional non-supernatural poisons of the "take you down in a few seconds" type.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

One page a day keeps the soul hax away

 

[Malox1696]

in my opinion only select character should have it as constant reading will kill u, but a glance at it is not equal to death

so izzard should be added and anyone who has written or read them fully, and not only use them like etzali or managed to read a phrase like tsuchi ,fran, kanzaki etc

 

[StrongClick]

Obviously reading 1 page or using a spell isn't equivalent to instant soul hax, destruction. This is different from those who are in constant contact, continuous usage of that knowledge which can easily corrode/destroy the soul after enough exposure.

 

[XDragnoir]

So, will the revisions be added or not?

 

[StrongClick]

So we got fiamma, Mina, index... Who else needs to be considered?

 

[XDragnoir]

Aiwass, Aleister, Izzard, Mathers(?), and the MGs?

 

[StrongClick]

I'd say coronzon too, wasn't she holding index other controller in WW3

 

[Malox1696]

I think corozon might be more of a special case as any knowledge from grimore wouldn't be anything she already doesn't know

 

[XDragnoir]

Agreed, but anyway, i don't think the grimoires would be able to affect Coronzon, since she is the one who created Qliphah.