Sonic (Video Game) - Planetary Size Justifications

[CloverDragon03]

That can be accomplished with it being normal Earth sized though. Look at any wild life on an island and how different they are compared to main land species.

Uh, definitely not. These new species are almost exclusively on a different region of the planet from humanity, on these Sonic-exclusive smaller islands. You've got the normal human population and wildlife like normal, plus this new species in the anthros (and some miscellaneous ones too like the Koco on Starfall Islands)

You can see two archipelago and a small island off the cost of the more northern continent.

That's just... part of the continent

In addition some of the islands Tails mentioned would be under 20 meters in length, which would be impossible to see anyways.

That's kind of the point, though. What we're saying is that in this orbital view of Earth, we don't even see any of these islands, like Angel Island for instance despite its size. It adds validity to the calc

I find it rather weak reasoning for a planetary size calc for something bigger than Jupiter.

I mean, agree to disagree ig? I'm just concerned because again, this can theoretically be said no matter how much reasoning is given

 

[CloverDragon03]

And 16-bits assets are more accurate than modern assets because?

I don't think it's accurate to say one is strictly better than the other. However, it is 100% better to stay consistent with one game than just throwing together stuff from a multitude of games based on personal convenience

 

[Starsprite53]

I don't think it's accurate to say one is strictly better than the other. However, it is 100% better to stay consistent with one game than just throwing together stuff from a multitude of games based on personal convenience

I mean that game itself is inconsistent with the size, the beach isn't as big as what calc supposed to have it

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean that game itself is inconsistent with the size, the beach isn't as big as what calc supposed to have it

Based on what, exactly?

 

[Starsprite53]

Not only that, relying on that calculation suggests the island's beach is massive, which is simply not the case

 

[ShakeResounding]

I don't think Sonic's planet being bigger than Jupiter is that outlandish of an idea in a verse where only certain animals are anthropomorphic and have a distinct area of the Earth they inhabit, the planet's moon got blown in half with absolutely no consequence, and there's LITERALLY an effing country-sized collection of islands that's been hidden within the skies of the planet hosting the third species on the planet (the Zeti) for like over a thousand years going by Master Zik's age.

 

[CloverDragon03]

@Starsprite53 Not sure what this proves. Yes, you only see the beach for a brief moment, but that's also because Super Sonic is flying right past it. You know, the fastest thing alive

 

[Theuser789]

You can see two archipelago and a small island off the cost of the more northern continent.

Can you show what those are? Because I am thinking you are confusing them for Adabat, which is a continent. Or are you talking about Eggmanland, which is also a continent?

 

[Starsprite53]

@Starsprite53 Not sure what this proves. Yes, you only see the beach for a brief moment, but that's also because Super Sonic is flying right past it. You know, the fastest thing alive

I mean, the moment he enters the island there are trees, like it's not just he is flying past it, the moment you see the beach, you also see the the trees and greens, going by the calc the sea and trees shouldn't be that close

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, the moment he enters the island there are trees, like it's not just he is flying past it, the moment you see the beach, you also see the the trees and greens, going by the calc the sea and trees shouldn't be that close

You’d think that, but differences in perspective actually make this not a feasible way to calculate this

 

[Omegabronic]

An island has several beaches, 1 being smaller wouldn't contradict a bigger one from existing


Anyway disagree with this for several reasons said above

 

[Theuser789]

I don't see any islands in the world map. The "archipelagos" are just part of Adabat.

Here's a recreation of the World Map a fan made.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SonicTheHedgehog/s/Fm2w3YUCeV

 

[ShakeResounding]

Oh yeah, for elaboration, this is the Lost Hex for those unknowledgeable about Lost World (and I wouldn't blame you kek). This shit is nearly the size of a country and is unable to be seen from a view of the planet.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well I guess I'm ultimately out voted on the size. If the other calc members agree I'll close the thread under rejection.

 

[Starsprite53]

Oh yeah, for elaboration, this is the Lost Hex for those unknowledgeable about Lost World (and I wouldn't blame you kek). This shit is nearly the size of a country and is unable to be seen from a view of the planet.

I mean, Lost Hex wasn't a thing during Unleashed

 

[Omegabronic]

In addition some of the islands Tails mentioned would be under 20 meters in length, which would be impossible to see anyways.

He is talking about the islands where the animal people live, which he also uses non 20 meter islands as examples, really are you arguing that all the islands are 20 meters in length? If not then i don't see the point you are trying to make

 

[Qawsedf234]

really are you arguing that all the islands are 20 meters in length?

No, I just brought up that he's including anything not water as an island. Including things that are significantly smaller than islands like West Side or Angel Island.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I mean, Lost Hex wasn't a thing during Unleashed

Yes but the sentiment remains because of TailsTube attempting to unify the narrative.

Also please note I'm not attempting to use the Unleashed map for my argument, more-so the sentiment throughout Lost World that it's been hidden to the world (hence the name Lost Hex) for a long long time despite its humongous nature in spite of modern-esque governments and militaries like G.U.N. creating things such as the Space Colony Ark (and thus being technologically capable).

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean, Lost Hex wasn't a thing during Unleashed

It was, it existed during the events of it

 

[Starsprite53]

Also Just to be clear, why do we think the big pyramid is one of these tiny pyramids when said one was covered underground?

 

[Starsprite53]

It was, it existed during the events of it

That's not what I'm talking about, Shake understood me

 

[Theuser789]

I mean, Lost Hex wasn't a thing during Unleashed

Why does that matter? I don't think we can see it in Frontiers when you fight The End, either.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Isn't it incredibly difficult to a consistent size for the planet anyway? Unless I'm missing something the current calc that puts it at 184,000 km via using S3&K also gets 97,000 km when using SA2 and 24,000 km when using Unleashed, that's some pretty big differences for the size of the planet when using different games.

Don't doubt the earth is bigger in Sonic than it is irl, but given that you could get widely different sizes depending on what game is used wouldn't it make it kinda impossible to get one size that works for the entire series?

 

[CloverDragon03]

We settled on the S3&K one because that’s the same game we got Angel Island’s size from, so it’s more consistent with itself that way

 

[Dust_Collector]

More consistent with itself? Like yeah if you only use a calc for Angel's Island size from one game and then calc the planets size using the same game yeah it is, but it's not consistent with the series as a whole. SA2's depiction of the planet is apparently close to half the size as it is in S3&K, and the planet's depiction in Unleashed is almost 8 times smaller. But apparently for stuff like the continent moving feat from that game we just ignore it's own depection and calc for the planets size because a single game 18 years earlier showed it being bigger and we have to assume every single other depiction is wrong?

 

[CloverDragon03]

The SA2 and Unleashed ones use an Angel Island calc from S3&K and then calc Earth's size from a whole other game. Personally, I feel like it's pretty self-explanatory why that's less reliable than using the Earth from S3&K since the Angel Island size calc also comes from S3&K

 

[Omegabronic]

More consistent with itself? Like yeah if you only use a calc for Angel's Island size from one game and then calc the planets size using the same game yeah it is, but it's not consistent with the series as a whole. SA2's depiction of the planet is apparently close to half the size as it is in S3&K, and the planet's depiction in Unleashed is almost 8 times smaller. But apparently for stuff like the continent moving feat from that game we just ignore it's own depection and calc for the planets size because a single game 18 years earlier showed it being bigger and we have to assume every single other depiction is wrong?

The other depictions are further away, hence why they give smaller results, S3K is the closest we have been from Earth while still being in outer space

It isn't contradictory, it is just that the further away something is, the smaller it would look

 

[Theuser789]

Unless I'm missing something the current calc that puts it at 184,000 km via using S3&K also gets 97,000 km when using SA2 and 24,000 km when using Unleashed, that's some pretty big differences for the size of the planet when using different games.

That's the exact reason we used the same game for the calc.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I've read through this thread and seen all of the points being made here.

I agree with the OP, the justification for the current planet size is far too weak to be acceptable.

Ignoring the fact that Angel Island isn't mention or show during Tail's statement. There is no stated size for Angel Island, it's something we're calculating. If Angel Island had a stated size I think this has more room to stand on. But I'm pretty sure we can't use our own calculation as a basis for something like this.

We have no idea how big Angel Island is suppose to be in this context. I doubt they were taking into account our px scaling size when this was said. Who's to say that Angel Island can't be smaller than what's been measured or maybe even bigger? We don't know since it's not an official size but something we're calculating.

Also, why half a pixel for Angel Island's size? From what I understand we default to 1 px in cases like this. Half a px cannot be displayed on a monitor, especially a CRT back in the 1991, which is what the game was made for. So even if others still accept this as being good enough, the calculation should be using 1 px and not half a px.

This is also ignoring the fact Angel Island's size, shape, and what's on it is inconsistent between games.

Note: My evaluation here is only for the Angel Island calculation, any other evidence that uses something else to show the planet is bigger than Earth is irrelevant to me. I'm not saying the planet can't be bigger than Earth, I'm just explaining why I think the accepted calculation isn't correct.

This is just my opinion on this, if the other calc group members disagree I won't argue my point.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Half a pixel is accepted in cases where the object in question is so small from that POV that it’s not visible

 

[Omegabronic]

I've read through this thread and seen all of the points being made here.

I agree with the OP, the justification for the current planet size is far too weak to be acceptable.

Ignoring the fact that Angel Island isn't mention or show during Tail's statement.

it is mentioned, Tails is talking about all the islands where the animal people live, which would include Angel Island by default, Angel Island is an island in Sonic's Earth, so of course it would count for the statement that is talking about the islands of Sonic's Earth

also we know for a fact that it isn't visible from space due to Sonic unleashed where we have a view from outer space and no matter how we spin it or where we see, angel island is never seen

There is no stated size for Angel Island, it's something we're calculating. If Angel Island had a stated size I think this has more room to stand on. But I'm pretty sure we can't use our own calculation as a basis for something like this.

there is nothing on the rules saying that we can't, and i also can't think of a logical reason of why we couldn't, the size calculated is pretty much in line of the size of an actual island, and calculating the size of structures with px scaling is basically what 90% of all calculations on this site use to calculate feats, i see no difference here

We have no idea how big Angel Island is suppose to be in this context. I doubt they were taking into account our px scaling size when this was said. Who's to say that Angel Island can't be smaller than what's been measured or maybe even bigger? We don't know since it's not an official size but something we're calculating.

we do know how big it is at minimum since we have enough information to measure it, again, no different of any calculation on this site

Also, why half a pixel for Angel Island's size? From what I understand we default to 1 px in cases like this. Half a px cannot be displayed on a monitor, especially a CRT back in the 1991, which is what the game was made for. So even if others still accept this as being good enough, the calculation should be using 1 px and not half a px.

a pixel would still be visible, so it can't be a pixel if it isn't visible

This is also ignoring the fact Angel Island's size, shape, and what's on it is inconsistent between games.

it doesn't very much, only ever so slightly maybe, but it is always overall in the same appearance

Note: My evaluation here is only for the Angel Island calculation, any other evidence that uses something else to show the planet is bigger than Earth is irrelevant to me. I'm not saying the planet can't be bigger than Earth, I'm just explaining why I think the accepted calculation isn't correct.

This is just my opinion on this, if the other calc group members disagree I won't argue my point.

so if your only problem is that we don't know the size of angel island, how would you "fix" the wrong calc? because you aren't disagreeing with the way it is being measured, but more so with the size of thing being used to calculate the size

 

[Theuser789]

I've read through this thread and seen all of the points being made here.

I agree with the OP, the justification for the current planet size is far too weak to be acceptable.

Ignoring the fact that Angel Island isn't mention or show during Tail's statement. There is no stated size for Angel Island, it's something we're calculating. If Angel Island had a stated size I think this has more room to stand on. But I'm pretty sure we can't use our own calculation as a basis for something like this.

We have no idea how big Angel Island is suppose to be in this context. I doubt they were taking into account our px scaling size when this was said. Who's to say that Angel Island can't be smaller than what's been measured or maybe even bigger? We don't know since it's not an official size but something we're calculating.

Also, why half a pixel for Angel Island's size? From what I understand we default to 1 px in cases like this. Half a px cannot be displayed on a monitor, especially a CRT back in the 1991, which is what the game was made for. So even if others still accept this as being good enough, the calculation should be using 1 px and not half a px.

This is also ignoring the fact Angel Island's size, shape, and what's on it is inconsistent between games.

Note: My evaluation here is only for the Angel Island calculation, any other evidence that uses something else to show the planet is bigger than Earth is irrelevant to me. I'm not saying the planet can't be bigger than Earth, I'm just explaining why I think the accepted calculation isn't correct.

This is just my opinion on this, if the other calc group members disagree I won't argue my point.

Angel Island is as big as other islands like West Side and South Island, and we can’t see it in the World Map of Sonic Unleashed, just continents. I don't see why it would be unusable just because we don't have an exact, official size

 

[ShakeResounding]

This is also ignoring the fact Angel Island's size, shape, and what's on it is inconsistent between games.

Just wanted to comment that when we exclude the IDW the comic book? No, this happens maybe 2 to 3 times throughout its 30+ years in the franchise because of the rarity in which we play on Angel Island across different adventures.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Disagree FRA

 

[Hypertornado099]

I can't find this guideline anywhere in the calculation instruction pages, why wasn't it added?

 

[Starsprite53]

also we know for a fact that it isn't visible from space due to Sonic unleashed where we have a view from outer space and no matter how we spin it or where we see, angel island is never seen

Omega, come on. Devs often toss worldbuilding consistency out the window, and sonic isn't innocent in that regard. Earth's map has major inconsistencies across games like Shadow TH, riders, Sonic 4, Unleashed, and IDW. They don't give a shit, but that's a common thing. Mario Odyssey's planet map is a whole galaxy away from the consistency in other mainline games and maps, so I don't think angel island proves any point at all as I think not showing it is expectable(Espacially from Sonic Team)

there is nothing on the rules saying that we can't, and i also can't think of a logical reason of why we couldn't, the size calculated is pretty much in line of the size of an actual island, and calculating the size of structures with px scaling is basically what 90% of all calculations on this site use to calculate feats, i see no difference here

My concern lies in using the island's size determined by pixel scaling ((I have yet to know why assuming the large pyramid is one of these small pyramids even tho it was covered underground when the sprite of the island was shown) and make it a reference for the entire long running franchise that shows inconsistencies when depicting the planet and the island. I honestly believe a more reliable approach would be to rely on the 3-D games, as they provide more dimension and are supposed to be more accurate to scale

 

[Starsprite53]

Just wanted to comment that when we exclude the IDW the comic book? No, this happens maybe 2 to 3 times throughout its 30+ years in the franchise because of the rarity in which we play on Angel Island across different adventures.

There is also Sonic Frontiers prologue iirc

 

[ShakeResounding]

There is also Sonic Frontiers prologue iirc

Nah, that's not really contradictory I'd say. Angel Island is huge enough that Knuckles is still discovering new stuff, which was highlighted in the Free Comic Book Day issue as something that irritated him.

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega, come on. Devs often toss worldbuilding consistency out the window, and sonic isn't innocent in that regard. Earth's map has major inconsistencies across games like Shadow TH, riders, Sonic 4, Unleashed, and IDW. They don't give a shit, but that's a common thing.

considering that this is suported by a statement that it isn't visible, and that this is consistent with every appearence of the planet, no it isn't the same situation, we know that it isn't visible via statements, the maps just comfirm the statement even more

Also.....they are not that contradictory to one another

Mario Odyssey's planet map is a whole galaxy away from the consistency in other mainline games and maps, so I don't think angel island proves any point at all as I think not showing it is expectable(Espacially from Sonic Team)

I Don't care about Mario at all so i will ignore any comparison to it that doesn't anything to thia series that had nothing to do with Mario

and your personal opinions are not evidence, we have comfirmation by statements that it isn't visible, all the maps we have of the planet show that it isn't visible, the map which we can rotate as we please shows that it isn't visible

This lore point is consistent in every map of the series, and it is an official aspect of the world, to dismiss it because "it isn't expectable to see" is to completely ignore the lore of the series and the consistency of it + official information

if you say that it should be visible, then prove that it is, every map disagress with this as well as the lore itself which states against it, arguing about the intention of the devs is useless since none of us are them to know their intent, so it is moot by nature

My concern lies in using the island's size determined by pixel scaling ((I have yet to know why assuming the large pyramid is one of these small pyramids even tho it was covered underground when the sprite of the island was shown) and make it a reference for the entire long running franchise that shows inconsistencies when depicting the planet and the island.

you will show said inconsistencies right? Because from all i saw over the years, angel island is pretty much the same all the time it appears and most of the time the planet is covered in clouds so that we can't see it, and the times we can all we see is 1 continent most of the time

If you will use "contradictions" as an argument against it (which is irrelevant for the planet's geography since the statement is for the islands not being visible from space, which would be true regardles of the shape of the continents is) then please show them, because now you are not proving anything, you are just talking

I honestly believe a more reliable approach would be to rely on the 3-D games, as they provide more dimension and are supposed to be more accurate to scale

which you mean what by this? Angel Island didn't appeared in any modern era game for us to scale its size

 

[Qawsedf234]

I can't find this guideline anywhere in the calculation instruction pages, why wasn't it added?

There's some official policies that haven't been added to the rules. I can try to get it added to the planetary curvature page when I get the ftee time.