Sonic the hedgehog abilities

[Theuser789]

Again, you aren't going to find any statments in a game with only environmental storytelling and no dialogue. Asking for statments in every post is genuily unreasonable because of this. Asking WoG for clarification is more reasonable than it.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Theuser789 Ok, you do know this only reinforces my point that it shouldn't be type 4 and instead just a resistance feat at best when something like Acausality requires some statements that the characters don't operate on the same laws as other normal beings right?

@omegabronic Because its a massive assumption to claim Sonic just functions on different sets of rules in his super form when collecting the rings.

Even though the rings he takes are absorbed into his being which lets him take hits before dying? He'd still just be immune to the effects of the realm.

the laws of gravity in the demon world do not function the same as in the human world where everything goes in reverse or upside down, some humans can withstand being in the presence of the demon world and they don't need an acausal existence to withstand it. Dracula's castle warps the concept of time from an individual and the hunters can resist it, no need for an acausal being for that to happen. Characters move in a realm where time doesn't exist in Blazblue, doesn't grant Acausality for it. Final fantasy goes through a realm where the past present and future are merged and the concept of time lost its meaning, still no Acausality.

Yeah that's just a resistance against his senses, that's not an Acausal thing unless you have statements that's the case. For extraordinary claims like the characters can withstand X because of their unique existence you need extraordinary evidence that proves it's their existence that causes it.

 

[omegabronic]

@omegabronic Because its a massive assumption to claim Sonic just functions on different sets of rules in his super form when collecting the rings.

Not an assumption at all wheb that is exactly what we are seeing

Even though the rings he takes are absorbed into his being which lets him take hits before dying? He'd still just be immune to the effects of the realm.

The rings are colected by him, and the thing about the ring is also valid for every other interaction he has with everything in the realm, any damage he does would be undone by the time, everything he broke wohld be unbroken by the time, every interaction would be undone, him resisting wouldn't stop stuff outside of him from going back and forth due to time, it being simply resistance does not help here at all

the laws of gravity in the demon world do not function the same as in the human world where everything goes in reverse or upside down, some humans can withstand being in the presence of the demon world and they don't need an acausal existence to withstand it.

so it is not similar at all with Egg reverie s
Zone, dunno why it matters

Dracula's castle warps the concept of time from an individual and the hunters can resist it, no need for an acausal being for that to happen.

in this case it is time manip being warped for an individual specifically, aka not similar at alk with Egg reverie....again

Characters move in a realm where time doesn't exist in Blazblue, doesn't grant Acausality for it.

time not existing is also not similar at all with egg reverie at all, so again, not relevant here

Final fantasy goes through a realm where the past present and future are merged and the concept of time lost its meaning, still no Acausality.

again, not similar at all with egg reverie whatsoever

All examples you gave are drastically different from egg reverie zone and don't cover the argument given for it, honestly if this are your examples than make me confuse, it is not similar with what is being discussed at all

Yeah that's just a resistance against his senses

what you just said makes no sense

, that's not an Acausal thing unless you have statements that's the case. For extraordinary claims like the characters can withstand X because of their unique existence you need extraordinary evidence that proves it's their existence that causes it.

When existence ia litterally the only possible option that makes any sense with what is happening.....i would go with it

 

[Theglassman12]

You can't "see" someone existing on different rules, that's something you need some form of statement.

Where does it say that everything would be undone? Can you provide evidence for that because I'm not seeing that at all in the scans for the reverie zone.

So you didn't actually pay attention to my examples, great. They all affect time in some way by its mere existence and people being there unfazed by it doesn't grant acausality, that's the point I was making, can you remotely try to refute my examples here or no because just saying "it's not the same" while not addressing my points isn't helping you.

Resisting being sensed across time happens in fiction, you do know dragon ball characters with god ki resists having their energy sensed right? This is the same thing but on a cosmic scale, plus you'd need evidence that he literally couldn't see their future at all for this argument to remotely work.

Not really because a statement about one's existence would need to be stated for that to be the case, otherwise we go with the simpler answer that they just resist the effects of the realm.

 

[omegabronic]

You can't "see" someone existing on different rules, that's something you need some form of statement.

when their own actions and effects only make sense because of a different rule set i wo

Where does it say that everything would be undone? Can you provide evidence for that because I'm not seeing that at all in the scans for the reverie zone.

i believe i have explained that already, due to time going back and forth, the things in the zone would also go back and forth, that being the state of things, making effects made by causes to be undone and re done all the time due to them going back and forth constantly

So you didn't actually pay attention to my examples, great. They all affect time in some way by its mere existence and people being there unfazed by it doesn't grant acausality, that's the point I was making

time in the examples you gave is being affected in a complete different way to how the Egg Reverie time is, which is very important for the argument for acausality type 4

, can you remotely try to refute my examples here or no because just saying "it's not the same" while not addressing my points isn't helping you.

you are the one who doesn't seen to be understanding the argument, time working specifically how it is in the zone is why acausality was agreed upon, that is it going back and forwards, going from past to future constantly, any other examples of anything not similar at all to the Egg Reverie zone doesn't help to disprove the argument for it being acausality type 4 at all

Resisting being sensed across time happens in fiction, you do know dragon ball characters with god ki resists having their energy sensed right? This is the same thing but on a cosmic scale, plus you'd need evidence that he literally couldn't see their future at all for this argument to remotely work.

there is nothing to be sensed here, he is looking at their future the same way you are looking forward right now, it isn't an ability for it to be resisted

Not really because a statement about one's existence would need to be stated for that to be the case, otherwise we go with the simpler answer that they just resist the effects of the realm.

already explained why this wouldn't be enough to explaing his actions and effects in the Zone

 

[Theuser789]

Ok, you do know this only reinforces my point that it shouldn't be type 4 and instead just a resistance feat at best when something like Acausality requires some statements that the characters don't operate on the same laws as other normal beings right?

No, it doesn't. Because otherwise we can't add this ability to any medium that doesn't use words like a silent film or a comic book without dialogue. Limiting an entire ability to a certain medium is just wrong. Contextual clues are needed sometimes in order to properly index something.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I think Super Forms should have Acausality Type 4 anyways, but with reasoning that's not yet on the profile.

For context, Frontiers takes a new approach with the canon by making the ENG and JP scripts equal in canonicity (in other words, one version doesn't take priority over the other), simply altering the JP script to better-suit the JP audience. This is accepted already but I just wanna re-clarify. Thanks to @JJSliderman for providing the scans for this.

For starters, Sage says Sonic is attempting to transcend causality.

As per the intelligence section of her profile, she is a very literal character that relies upon calculations that she can do by the millions. We also know this isn't hyperbolic use of causality because of Tails' mention of causality when referring to the forcefield surrounding the Starfall Islands in the beginning of the game.

Prior to battling The End, Sonic says "he'll break the chains of fate".

Here, The End says it's attunement is ruling fate on everything in the universe.

The End states it's been this way since time immemorial, claiming there's no way to challenge it.

And of course, The End states Sonic's actions transcend law and time.
https://i.imgur.com/NkI0VLH.jpeg

"Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others."

While Base Sonic ultimately succumbed to the Corruption that plagued him, Super Sonic and Sage within Supreme (each of the Titans are fueled by the Chaos Emeralds, meaning Supreme's participation in the fight isn't contradictory) ultimately defeated it. The way The End addresses Sonic through its dialogue is something I believe to be the clearest evidence of Acausality Type 4 for Supers.

 

[Theuser789]

Seems like it's settled, then. There's your statments.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ShakeResounding and to double check this is all in the japanese text of the game right?

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah

 

[ShakeResounding]

@ShakeResounding and to double check this is all in the japanese text of the game right?

Yessir, the JP script has interesting changes and this is one of 'em

 

[Theglassman12]

Then yeah this is fine for type 4 Acausality. Just replace the reverie zone stuff with this and we’re good for that, only got one question left and it’s more important than the rest of this CRT.

which Sonic character is 4-A and uses power mimicry as their gimmick?

 

[Starsprite53]

Doesn't Base Sonic already resist fate manipulation? and it seems the causality stuff is about his base form, so why are we slapping it into super forms?

 

[JJSliderman]

Because he doesn’t end up succeeding in defying causality in his base, he succumbs to the virus. Only as super form did he defeat The End, who has these causality altering powers.

 

[Starsprite53]

Because he doesn’t end up succeeding in defying causality in his base, he succumbs to the virus. Only as super form did he defeat The End, who has these causality altering powers.

Not because he was in his base form but because he was fatigued and corrupted by the cyber energy thus "with a body like that" and he eventually got rid of it anyways
For the end, when was it shown he has causality altering powers? As far as I remember, Didn't Sage imply that she was the reason for the plane going crazy and the cast being trapped in cyberspace, resisting causality manip doesn't grant type 4 acausality anyways, it's not vice versa

 

[omegabronic]

Then yeah this is fine for type 4 Acausality. Just replace the reverie zone stuff with this and we’re good for that, only got one question left and it’s more important than the rest of this CRT.

which Sonic character is 4-A and uses power mimicry as their gimmick?

Emerl

 

[omegabronic]

Doesn't Base Sonic already resist fate manipulation? and it seems the causality stuff is about his base form, so why are we slapping it into super forms?

The thing is that this is not fate stuff, but him reversing and transcending causality

 

[Starsprite53]

The thing is that this is not fate stuff, but him reversing and transcending causality

he isn't reversing anything, and how exactly he transcends causality? That needs explanation, because Sage said that when he was trying to process on doing something she calculated as imporable while he is fatigued and corrupted

 

[Theglassman12]

@omegabronic thanks, now this CRT is done, just need to apply the changes and it can be closed.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Doesn't there need to be more staff input about new information for acausality type 4?

 

[Theglassman12]

I can ask a couple of staff members.

@Maverick_Zero_X @DemonGodMitchAubin does Shake’s scan for super forms being type 4 look valid to you?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I think Super Forms should have Acausality Type 4 anyways, but with reasoning that's not yet on the profile.

For context, Frontiers takes a new approach with the canon by making the ENG and JP scripts equal in canonicity (in other words, one version doesn't take priority over the other), simply altering the JP script to better-suit the JP audience. This is accepted already but I just wanna re-clarify. Thanks to @JJSliderman for providing the scans for this.

For starters, Sage says Sonic is attempting to transcend causality.

As per the intelligence section of her profile, she is a very literal character that relies upon calculations that she can do by the millions. We also know this isn't hyperbolic use of causality because of Tails' mention of causality when referring to the forcefield surrounding the Starfall Islands in the beginning of the game.

Prior to battling The End, Sonic says "he'll break the chains of fate".

Here, The End says it's attunement is ruling fate on everything in the universe.

The End states it's been this way since time immemorial, claiming there's no way to challenge it.

And of course, The End states Sonic's actions transcend law and time.
https://i.imgur.com/NkI0VLH.jpeg

While Base Sonic ultimately succumbed to the Corruption that plagued him, Super Sonic and Sage within Supreme (each of the Titans are fueled by the Chaos Emeralds, meaning Supreme's participation in the fight isn't contradictory) ultimately defeated it. The way The End addresses Sonic through its dialogue is something I believe to be the clearest evidence of Acausality Type 4 for Supers.

Yeah, I think Type 4 is agreeable from this evidence.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Acausality looks fine.

 

[JJSliderman]

Pretty soon Super Sonic will just be a 4-D being with all these things he transcends.

 

[Theglassman12]

If he can exist as a timeline or just see the 3-D world as fiction then sure.

 

[JJSliderman]

Travels to fourth dimensional space where he sees 3D worlds as projections on a screen.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Pretty soon Super Sonic will just be a 4-D being with all these things he transcends.

Eldritch Hedgegod wen

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Theglassman12 Would Maverick and Starter be enough for the Acausality stuff? If so, I can apply that and some of the changes to the cast that were unanimously agreed upon. Specifically...

- New Type 4 justifications for every relevant profile that has it

- Changing Resistance to Death Manipulation to Resistance to Corrosion Inducement (Sonic, Tails, Amy, Knuckles)

- Updating King Arthur's page a bit when I get the chance

 

[Theglassman12]

You have 3 staff support for type 4 so go ahead. There’s also the concept stuff and the offensive time travel and space time hax that needs to be removed from some pages too.

 

[omegabronic]

but the Temporal AOE in the range sections remains, btw wouldn't we need staff aproval in all of those suggestions before applying it as well?

 

[Theglassman12]

Not exactly given the universal acceptance on what goes and stays. The type 4 Acausality needed input since it’s new scans being argued but the others we can just apply the changes.

 

[omegabronic]

i wonder how we will list the temporal nuke in the "still being made" Chaos Energy page now.....well, i guess we will see it when it comes to it

 

[Theglassman12]

The temporal nuke is just a range feat given they just affect someone omnipresent with their power. Nothing mentions they have the innate power to erase someone across time.

 

[omegabronic]

The temporal nuke is just a range feat given they just affect someone omnipresent with their power. Nothing mentions they have the innate power to erase someone across time.

to defeat solaris they needed to do just that, attack him across all of time, so yeah it is still a temporal nuke, the method being used changing to another one doesn't change that

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah, which is hardly any different than how we treat literally any other character affecting someone omnipresent across timelines. It's a range feat at best if they just attack him normally and he's harmed despite him being omnipresent on that level.

 

[omegabronic]

Yeah, which is hardly any different than how we treat literally any other character affecting someone omnipresent across timelines. It's a range feat at best if they just attack him normally and he's harmed despite him being omnipresent on that level.

And it shows that they can attack someone across all of their history aka a temporal nuke, you didn't actually disproved the point at all you know?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Yeah, which is hardly any different than how we treat literally any other character affecting someone omnipresent across timelines. It's a range feat at best if they just attack him normally and he's harmed despite him being omnipresent on that level.

I think it's unique in this case. Because normally an Omnipresent character exists across all of time AND space. So with Tier 2 range, you'd logically affect someone who exists across all of space and time. The issue here is that Super Sonic is only hitting across all of time. Not all of space. Super Sonic, Shadow, and Silver are exclusively hitting Solaris who is only temporally omnipresent. They're essentially targeting a specific spot across all of time simultaneously as opposed to distributing their power across the entire Space-Time Continuum. The latter would be range, the former would be something else.

 

[Theglassman12]

@omegabronic I did by telling you it's not a specific ability they get, it's literally just their own range kicking in. This is only viable against omnipresent beings as the Super forms would have no trouble attacking someone omnipresent.

@LaserPrecision You do know affecting someone across time is hardly any different than affecting someone across the space-time continuum right? It's still a range feat to attack someone that's omnipresent. It doesn't grant any new abilities at all

 

[omegabronic]

@omegabronic I did by telling you it's not a specific ability they get, it's literally just their own range kicking in.

not being a specific ability negates what i said how exactly?

This is only viable against omnipresent beings as the Super forms would have no trouble attacking someone omnipresent.

Any reason for this to only be activated to temporal omnipresent beings in specific even tho nothing in the games suggests this? You are making an assumption of a limitation that is never ever remotely said in the game at all, sorry but if you will affirm that the temporal nuke is limited, for some arbitrary reason, only to one specific type of character, then you will need proof to support it, the game shows it clearly, the hedgehogs can attack someone through out their entire History, not even a single line or showing indicates that this is limited to only Solaris somehow, i really don't know where you got that from

 

[Dust_Collector]

I dunno if it's just me, but wouldn't harming a temporally omnipresent being not be anything at all? Like Solaris basically just has his body stretched across all of time so wouldn't his entire body be affected no matter who hits him in any time period (Provided they can actually, y'know, hurt him) since it's just one body?

Dunno if I explained what I said in a way that makes sense, I'm preoccupied with working on another profile as I'm just side eying this discussion while I do so and not writing with too much thought.