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they have literally no mechanism stated (only a source in any media), they just are invulnerable because they are. (like a common invincibility power up most of the times where they are portrayed)
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Sonic Super Forms Invulnerability Removal
- Thread starter Jinsye
- Start date
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We don't "discard them". We just interpret them as "durable enough to survive those attacks", not "invulnerable" (which would make them able to survive attacks absurdly far into 3-A, or perhaps even High 3-A attacks).
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I gotta question on this:
How are Super Forms stonewalls if their mechanism on how don't line up with non-Super Form Bosses' stat increases?
Like, nothing in Game Sonic's lore hints to the mechanism of how or why Super Forms increase the Durability greater than their AP. It should be an equal increase in both stats. Game Bosses who use Chaos Emeralds, or similar powers to the emeralds, to increase their stats, are physically harmed and sometimes killed, by Super Sonic.
The only difference between Game Bosses using the Chaos Emeralds to increase their stats vs Super Forms increasing Base users,
is that Super Forms are said to have invulnerability. Game Bosses who use the same power aren't said to have invulnerability, thus, are harmed(unlike Super Sonic) and defeated. But why?
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Jinsye
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Elixir I don't think any of your points matter unfortunately. Invulnerability is an NLF ability by design, that unless you have explicit proof of the negation of force then just "no-selling attacks from people with higher AP" doesn't mean anything other than potentially stats amp.
We can't just assume the Super forms would be invulnerable to 2-A force just because they're stated to be indestructible, that's not how our standards work. Unless you have scans that demonstrate the negation of physical attacks in a hax sort of way.
There could be a myriad of reasons for the game bosses being harmed, maybe they simply didn't tap into that part of the Chaos Emeralds, but we can't assume the highest possible interpretation.
We can't just assume the Super forms would be invulnerable to 2-A force just because they're stated to be indestructible, that's not how our standards work. Unless you have scans that demonstrate the negation of physical attacks in a hax sort of way.
There could be a myriad of reasons for the game bosses being harmed, maybe they simply didn't tap into that part of the Chaos Emeralds, but we can't assume the highest possible interpretation.
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"Invulnerability" is pretty much a meme power descriptor anyway (just say "extreme resistance to X power" or whatever), but it is especially so when applied to entities that are listed as "invulnerable" because of some statements and not any actual explained mechanics. Sonic the Hedgehog super forms have never been implied to specifically negate any particular form of damage, and in fact have themselves been hurt pretty often IIRC. Sonic Unleashed definitely comes to mind here.
Saying that Sonic super forms are "invulnerable" because "the super forms use Chaos Energy and can take blasts from comparable energy sources" is like saying that any Super Saiyan should be "invulnerable" because the Super Saiyan state relies on ki and its users can endure various ki attacks. "This guy should be invulnerable because he uses and can withstand attacks using such-and-such magical super-energy or mystical force" a bad joke in terms of reasoning.
Saying that Sonic super forms are "invulnerable" because "the super forms use Chaos Energy and can take blasts from comparable energy sources" is like saying that any Super Saiyan should be "invulnerable" because the Super Saiyan state relies on ki and its users can endure various ki attacks. "This guy should be invulnerable because he uses and can withstand attacks using such-and-such magical super-energy or mystical force" a bad joke in terms of reasoning.
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Maybe so, but the lowest possible interpretation needs to exist first. Just "gain higher durability than AP" doesn't exist as a lowest possible interpretation if non-Super Forms use stat increases from the same source but don't have higher durability than their own AP.
The only possible interpretation is that Super Forms tap into an ability from the power source that non-Super Forms can't obtain.
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Jinsye
She/Her- 10,455
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- Thread starter
- #87
This doesn't mean invulnerability, as I said it does not comply to the standards. This 'invulnerability' would simply just be an entirely different level of statistics amp.
You have no proof that 2-A force wouldn't work on the super forms besides some guesswork based on vague statements of invincibility and indestructibility, so we can't just assume so.
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Where's its stated the bar for invulnerability must be 2-A to qualify? Does Record of Ragnarok needs 2-A mortal weapons as examples to qualify? Do you have evidence the Sonic source material meant anything less than invulnerability for Super Forms? If its just granting a higher durability than AP, why is it just equal stat increases for every other being or "god" thats not a Super Form?
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,455
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- Thread starter
- #89
Because invulnerability is the negation of attack potency (similar to how durability negation works regardless of durability). If you can't negate all forms of attack potency on your existential level then you shouldn't get invulnerability. It's that simple.
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Ok, getting somewhere. What attacks can Super Forms not negate on their existential? Does 2-A exist in Sonic lore? Didn't Solaris consume the entire cosmology and Time and still couldn't hurt Super Forms?
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Um, Solaris can actually hurt super forms. Egg Wizard is a better example
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Like, nothing in Game Sonic's lore hints to the mechanism of how or why Super Forms increase the Durability greater than their AP. It should be an equal increase in both stats. Game Bosses who use Chaos Emeralds, or similar powers to the emeralds, to increase their stats, are physically harmed and sometimes killed, by Super Sonic.
The thing that indicates that their durability is increased greater than their AP is that they're stated to be invulnerable, and to tank attacks from those who are comparable to them in strength.
is that Super Forms are said to have invulnerability. Game Bosses who use the same power aren't said to have invulnerability, thus, are harmed(unlike Super Sonic) and defeated. But why?
That distinction exists regardless. Either they have invulnerability, or they have higher durability. Why is the former acceptable to you, but not the latter?
Maybe so, but the lowest possible interpretation needs to exist first. Just "gain higher durability than AP" doesn't exist as a lowest possible interpretation if non-Super Forms use stat increases from the same source but don't have higher durability than their own AP. The only possible interpretation is that Super Forms tap into an ability from the power source that non-Super Forms can't obtain.
Why doesn't gaining higher durability exist? Why can't they tap into an ability of the power source to get higher dura? Why does it have to be tapping into an ability of the power source to become literally invulnerable?
Ok, getting somewhere. What attacks can Super Forms not negate on their existential? Does 2-A exist in Sonic lore? Didn't Solaris consume the entire cosmology and Time and still couldn't hurt Super Forms?
This is not getting somewhere, this is just kicking the can down the road. After this you'd need to prove that Super Forms can exist attacks above baseline 2-A, then attacks two layers above baseline 2-A, and so on ad infinitum.
At one place you'd have to run out, but true Invulnerability wouldn't (well, not until the next existential level is reached, at least).
The thing that indicates that their durability is increased greater than their AP is that they're stated to be invulnerable, and to tank attacks from those who are comparable to them in strength.
is that Super Forms are said to have invulnerability. Game Bosses who use the same power aren't said to have invulnerability, thus, are harmed(unlike Super Sonic) and defeated. But why?
That distinction exists regardless. Either they have invulnerability, or they have higher durability. Why is the former acceptable to you, but not the latter?
Maybe so, but the lowest possible interpretation needs to exist first. Just "gain higher durability than AP" doesn't exist as a lowest possible interpretation if non-Super Forms use stat increases from the same source but don't have higher durability than their own AP. The only possible interpretation is that Super Forms tap into an ability from the power source that non-Super Forms can't obtain.
Why doesn't gaining higher durability exist? Why can't they tap into an ability of the power source to get higher dura? Why does it have to be tapping into an ability of the power source to become literally invulnerable?
Ok, getting somewhere. What attacks can Super Forms not negate on their existential? Does 2-A exist in Sonic lore? Didn't Solaris consume the entire cosmology and Time and still couldn't hurt Super Forms?
This is not getting somewhere, this is just kicking the can down the road. After this you'd need to prove that Super Forms can exist attacks above baseline 2-A, then attacks two layers above baseline 2-A, and so on ad infinitum.
At one place you'd have to run out, but true Invulnerability wouldn't (well, not until the next existential level is reached, at least).
Kflare63
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But there is no 2-A in game sonic. Currently 2-B is the peak.
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I'm neutral regarding this at the moment.
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what I'm trying to say is: you are trying to get this man to prove the impossible/nonexistant
I don't actually want anyone to prove that, I'm just trying to explain why that line of questioning is so futile. The only proof I want is proof of a mechanism for the Super forms' invulnerability, and from what other people have said, it sounds like that just doesn't exist.
Also watch your tone, it's getting irritating.
I don't understand what's wrong with my tone. I've asked a few others and they can't see anything off either. Would you be able to point towards any specifics I should be working on?
I don't actually want anyone to prove that, I'm just trying to explain why that line of questioning is so futile. The only proof I want is proof of a mechanism for the Super forms' invulnerability, and from what other people have said, it sounds like that just doesn't exist.
Also watch your tone, it's getting irritating.
I don't understand what's wrong with my tone. I've asked a few others and they can't see anything off either. Would you be able to point towards any specifics I should be working on?
GodlyCharmander
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It makes no sense that two things taking from the same source have different durabilities.
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If one of them is vulnerable to attacks, and another isn't, then they clearly have different durabilities. idk why being 2x higher is less believable than it being infinitely higher.
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Because invulnerability is a super power, while dura isn't. It's easier to argue a super form has a special power that others don't rather than their dura just being higher because reasons
GodlyCharmander
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No. The context of them having the same source, thus, the exact same boost already debunks this option in it's entirety. Invulnerability is clearly meant to be a hax to resist blunt damage, since only characters with Dura Neg can harm Super Sonic.
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Because invulnerability is a super power, while dura isn't. It's easier to argue a super form has a special power that others don't rather than their dura just being higher because reasons
Stat amp is a super power.
No. The context of them having the same source, thus, the exact same boost already debunks this option in it's entirety. Invulnerability is clearly meant to be a hax to resist blunt damage, since only characters with Dura Neg can harm Super Sonic.
If they had the exact same boost they would have all the same abilities. They don't, so they could have an additional ability, of either stat amp or invulnerability.
Stat amp is a super power.
No. The context of them having the same source, thus, the exact same boost already debunks this option in it's entirety. Invulnerability is clearly meant to be a hax to resist blunt damage, since only characters with Dura Neg can harm Super Sonic.
If they had the exact same boost they would have all the same abilities. They don't, so they could have an additional ability, of either stat amp or invulnerability.
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Except invulnerability is what's portrayed in the series, not stat amp. "We" just interpret invulnerability as stat amp because of the site's weird standards.
GodlyCharmander
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Stat amp isn't a super power in this context. They are tapping into the same amount of power.
Hax's are another story.
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Except invulnerability is what's portrayed in the series, not stat amp. "We" just interpret invulnerability as stat amp because of the site's weird standards.
Stat amp is what's portrayed (by them not taking damage from attacks). A vague NLF "invulnerability" statement is said, without any method backing it up to justify that.
Stat amp isn't a super power in this context. They are tapping into the same amount of power. Hax's are another story.
They're clearly not tapping into the same amount of power if different characters are getting different things from it.
Stat amp is what's portrayed (by them not taking damage from attacks). A vague NLF "invulnerability" statement is said, without any method backing it up to justify that.
Stat amp isn't a super power in this context. They are tapping into the same amount of power. Hax's are another story.
They're clearly not tapping into the same amount of power if different characters are getting different things from it.
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This is literally only based on your interpretation of invulnerability based on the wikia's standards. Most of the people think when seeing "not taking damage from attacks" is invulnerability, because that's what it's told by us.
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This is literally only based on your interpretation of invulnerability based on the wikia's standards. Most of the people think when seeing "not taking damage from attacks" is invulnerability, because that's what it's told by us.
I think a lot of people, in the broader society, take fictional statements in a very NLFy way. Accepting stuff like "omnipotent", "unbeatable", "omniscient", "immortal", "invulnerable" as being insurmountable at the drop of a hat. I don't fault those people too much, since it's just interpretation of media after all, but I don't wanna stretch those statements too far without evidence; that's why I spend a lot of my time on a wiki that doesn't.
I think a lot of people, in the broader society, take fictional statements in a very NLFy way. Accepting stuff like "omnipotent", "unbeatable", "omniscient", "immortal", "invulnerable" as being insurmountable at the drop of a hat. I don't fault those people too much, since it's just interpretation of media after all, but I don't wanna stretch those statements too far without evidence; that's why I spend a lot of my time on a wiki that doesn't.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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All of these words, yet none of what you say answer the question of why the so called "durability amp" would be way more potent for Sonic, while others such as Perfect Chaos don't get the same increase? But then there's also Solaris who somehow can harm Sonic while getting boosted by the emeralds yet Sonic can also harm him back despite Sonic's durability being >>>> AP apperantly,
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All of these words, yet none of what you say answer the question of why the so called "durability amp" would be way more potent for Sonic, while others such as Perfect Chaos don't get the same increase?
Could you explain what you mean here? Do they both have this "invulnerability" but Perfect Chaos loses it earlier or something?
Because if Sonic gets the "invulnerability" and Perfect Chaos doesn't, it sounds like Sonic got his durability boosted more. Why did he get it while Perfect Chaos didn't? Use whichever explanation satisfies you for him getting "invulnerability".
But then there's also Solaris who somehow can harm Sonic while getting boosted by the emeralds yet Sonic can also harm him back despite Sonic's durability being >>>> AP apperantly
idk anything about Sonic, but some general possibilities for situations like this are that Solaris has disjointed AP (stronger magical attacks that don't scale to physical strikes), or that Solaris has durability negation (he'd need something like this anyway in the case where Sonic's accepted as having Invulnerability).
Could you explain what you mean here? Do they both have this "invulnerability" but Perfect Chaos loses it earlier or something?
Because if Sonic gets the "invulnerability" and Perfect Chaos doesn't, it sounds like Sonic got his durability boosted more. Why did he get it while Perfect Chaos didn't? Use whichever explanation satisfies you for him getting "invulnerability".
But then there's also Solaris who somehow can harm Sonic while getting boosted by the emeralds yet Sonic can also harm him back despite Sonic's durability being >>>> AP apperantly
idk anything about Sonic, but some general possibilities for situations like this are that Solaris has disjointed AP (stronger magical attacks that don't scale to physical strikes), or that Solaris has durability negation (he'd need something like this anyway in the case where Sonic's accepted as having Invulnerability).
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Super Sonic and Perfect Chaos are both powered by the same source, aka the Chaos Emeralds, however, Super Sonic cannot be harmed by Perfect Chaos, while the former can harm Chaos in return.
The question is, why would their "increased durability" (As you want to call what they have instead of invulnerability) would be different from each other despite both being powered by the same source
My question is, why is that, and how according you, you explain how neither are invulnerable, but for some reason Sonic is more durable. Again, I'm asking you to explain how it is possible.
To answer this, you must come with pretty complicate stuff to explain it, all while the simple solution is just: "Sonic is invulnerable, Chaos is not"
This explains why you can't come up with an explaination
All of these possiblities when you have absolutely no proof for any of those. It requires a lot more explaination for you to prove that this is how it works rather than the simple: "Sonic is invulnerable, Solaris can negate said invulnerability"
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Super Sonic and Perfect Chaos are both powered by the same source, aka the Chaos Emeralds, however, Super Sonic cannot be harmed by Perfect Chaos, while the former can harm Chaos in return.
The question is, why would their "increased durability" (As you want to call what they have instead of invulnerability) would be different from each other despite both being powered by the same source
For the same reason that you currently find is sufficient for one of them having Invulnerability and the other not.
My question is, why is that, and how according you, you explain how neither are invulnerable, but for some reason Sonic is more durable. Again, I'm asking you to explain how it is possible.
Sonic is more durable because he can tank stronger attacks.
To answer this, you must come with pretty complicate stuff to explain it, all while the simple solution is just: "Sonic is invulnerable, Chaos is not"
I can't see how you could accept that and not "Sonic is very durable, Chaos is not". It is such a minor change in reasoning.
All of these possiblities when you have absolutely no proof for any of those.
The proof is that Sonic can tank stronger attacks from beings as strong as Solaris but not from Solaris himself. The same proof you have for Sonic being invulnerable and Solaris having invulnerability negation.
It requires a lot more explaination for you to prove that this is how it works rather than the simple: "Sonic is invulnerable, Solaris can negate said invulnerability"
"Sonic is durable, Solaris has durability negation" is fewer words, I don't know how you could interpret that as requiring "a lot more explanation".
The question is, why would their "increased durability" (As you want to call what they have instead of invulnerability) would be different from each other despite both being powered by the same source
For the same reason that you currently find is sufficient for one of them having Invulnerability and the other not.
My question is, why is that, and how according you, you explain how neither are invulnerable, but for some reason Sonic is more durable. Again, I'm asking you to explain how it is possible.
Sonic is more durable because he can tank stronger attacks.
To answer this, you must come with pretty complicate stuff to explain it, all while the simple solution is just: "Sonic is invulnerable, Chaos is not"
I can't see how you could accept that and not "Sonic is very durable, Chaos is not". It is such a minor change in reasoning.
All of these possiblities when you have absolutely no proof for any of those.
The proof is that Sonic can tank stronger attacks from beings as strong as Solaris but not from Solaris himself. The same proof you have for Sonic being invulnerable and Solaris having invulnerability negation.
It requires a lot more explaination for you to prove that this is how it works rather than the simple: "Sonic is invulnerable, Solaris can negate said invulnerability"
"Sonic is durable, Solaris has durability negation" is fewer words, I don't know how you could interpret that as requiring "a lot more explanation".
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I mean, Sonic having lots of statements of invulnerability would back this up immensely.
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I mean, Sonic having lots of statements of invulnerability would back this up immensely.
I feel like you're misunderstanding the point I'm making here.
Gilad said "How can two people powered up by the same source get different durabilities?"
I said "For the same reason that one of them can get invulnerability and the other can't."
I don't think you responding to that with "Sonic having statements of invulerability backs that up" really relates to my point. If we interpret vague statements of "invulnerability" as equivalent to "high dura" (as I do), then Sonic having multiple statements of invulnerability and Perfect Chaos not would support my assertion that Sonic has higher durability.
I feel like you're misunderstanding the point I'm making here.
Gilad said "How can two people powered up by the same source get different durabilities?"
I said "For the same reason that one of them can get invulnerability and the other can't."
I don't think you responding to that with "Sonic having statements of invulerability backs that up" really relates to my point. If we interpret vague statements of "invulnerability" as equivalent to "high dura" (as I do), then Sonic having multiple statements of invulnerability and Perfect Chaos not would support my assertion that Sonic has higher durability.
GodlyCharmander
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So, the situation is:
The second one requires one. And it's supported by statements of invulnerability, which, no, is not generally interpreted as higher durability, especially when Sonic and his archenemies are portrayed to be as powerful as each other.
You're basically saying, "accept this interpretation because I believe it makes more sense". There isn't an argument being presented.
- Two character, Sonic and Chaos use the Chaos Emeralds as a source, they tap into the same amount of sheer energy.
- Sonic can harm Chaos, Chaos cannot harm Sonic.
- The Chaos Emeralds gives Sonic an arbitrary additional boost in stats, and this is only given to the durability stat and nothing else.
- The Chaos Emeralds gives the Super Forms the ability to be resistant to damage, aka, Invulnerable
The second one requires one. And it's supported by statements of invulnerability, which, no, is not generally interpreted as higher durability, especially when Sonic and his archenemies are portrayed to be as powerful as each other.
You're basically saying, "accept this interpretation because I believe it makes more sense". There isn't an argument being presented.
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The first one requires a LOT of mental gymnastics and assumptions to work.
No, it requires exactly as many. Either the Chaos Emeralds give Sonic an extra ability, or the Chaos Emeralds give Sonic extra durability. Each of those is one additional assumption on the text.
which, no, is not generally interpreted as higher durability
Yes it is, which is why we've needed an explanation of the mechanic, and not just the word "invulnerable", to give that ability for the past 2 and a half years.
especially when Sonic and his archenemies are portrayed to be as powerful as each other.
Two characters having the same AP does not mean that they have the same durability.
You're basically saying, "accept this interpretation because I believe it makes more sense". There isn't an argument being presented.
Here are the posts where I have presented arguments: Post 1. Post 2. Post 3. Post 4. Post 5. Post 6. Post 7. Post 8. Post 9. Post 10. Post 11. Post 12. Post 13.
I never said "do it because I think it makes more sense". In fact, I presented multiple different arguments and counterarguments.
You can say that you don't agree with them, but please don't say that I'm not making them.
No, it requires exactly as many. Either the Chaos Emeralds give Sonic an extra ability, or the Chaos Emeralds give Sonic extra durability. Each of those is one additional assumption on the text.
which, no, is not generally interpreted as higher durability
Yes it is, which is why we've needed an explanation of the mechanic, and not just the word "invulnerable", to give that ability for the past 2 and a half years.
especially when Sonic and his archenemies are portrayed to be as powerful as each other.
Two characters having the same AP does not mean that they have the same durability.
You're basically saying, "accept this interpretation because I believe it makes more sense". There isn't an argument being presented.
Here are the posts where I have presented arguments: Post 1. Post 2. Post 3. Post 4. Post 5. Post 6. Post 7. Post 8. Post 9. Post 10. Post 11. Post 12. Post 13.
I never said "do it because I think it makes more sense". In fact, I presented multiple different arguments and counterarguments.
You can say that you don't agree with them, but please don't say that I'm not making them.
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I’d say the assumption that has statements that if taken literally, agree with them, is more reasonable. Sure invulnerable can mean Higher dura, but that doesn’t seem to be what context is showing
GodlyCharmander
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General media does not interpret "Invulnerable" as "high durability" at all, so yeah, the statements support the literal interpretation.
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Sure invulnerable can mean Higher dura, but that doesn’t seem to be what context is showing
Why do you think the context implies otherwise?
General media does not interpret "Invulnerable" as "high durability" at all, so yeah, the statements support the literal interpretation.
That's not what the wiki interprets "invulnerable" as.
It's not like we think characters with "invulnerable" statements are contradicted and so we give them high durability instead. No, we just interpret that evidence in the first place as only meaning "too durable for characters in the setting".
Why do you think the context implies otherwise?
General media does not interpret "Invulnerable" as "high durability" at all, so yeah, the statements support the literal interpretation.
That's not what the wiki interprets "invulnerable" as.
It's not like we think characters with "invulnerable" statements are contradicted and so we give them high durability instead. No, we just interpret that evidence in the first place as only meaning "too durable for characters in the setting".
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Question, and this is just a general question. I have no idea if it applies to Sonic or mentioned in Sonic.
When one is invulnerable, couldn't they have a specific type of invulnerability that targets physical damage? Or does it have to be invulnerable towards everything? Because Sonic consistently shows to only receive knockback, I don't think we've ever seen Super Sonic get injured. (I could be wrong).
As for the general question. If a character outright states they have invulnerability after or before receiving a powerful attack. Would that be enough to be classified? I don't think Sonic series had a situation like this but it seems a few people mentioned how the Super Form is consistently classified as being invulnerable. So I'm a bit confused on what's required for the label.
When one is invulnerable, couldn't they have a specific type of invulnerability that targets physical damage? Or does it have to be invulnerable towards everything? Because Sonic consistently shows to only receive knockback, I don't think we've ever seen Super Sonic get injured. (I could be wrong).
As for the general question. If a character outright states they have invulnerability after or before receiving a powerful attack. Would that be enough to be classified? I don't think Sonic series had a situation like this but it seems a few people mentioned how the Super Form is consistently classified as being invulnerable. So I'm a bit confused on what's required for the label.
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When one is invulnerable, couldn't they have a specific type of invulnerability that targets physical damage?
Yes.
As for the general question. If a character outright states they have invulnerability after or before receiving a powerful attack. Would that be enough to be classified?
No.
Yes.
As for the general question. If a character outright states they have invulnerability after or before receiving a powerful attack. Would that be enough to be classified?
No.
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