Sonic Revisions- The World Rings

[ShakeResounding]

You're missing the argument

 

[Theuser789]

They were rewritting the concepts of the Arabian Nights, not just it

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Theuser789]

Alf planned to rewrite the Arabian Nights in his image which would conclude its concepts, and Sonic was able to recreate the Arabian Nights.

Here

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'd like more arguments against CM directly. Not pushing for arguments, but like, we're being made to wait for them anyways.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Shake. Arguments against it is that it's pure extrapolation, no offense of course. Peeps are saying a basic reality warping statement on a universal scale is implying concept manipulation, which regardless of type is wrong. It's a reach. It's not wank, not at all, I'm not going that far, but it is a reach.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah at the moment the rings seem connected to emotions/the world/bind it together and allow reality warping. I haven't heard anything that would imply they allow one to manipulate concepts. Recreating the nights/rewriting them is just a case of large scale reality warping and doesn't require concepts to be manipulated to acheive said feats. The fact they seem to be connected to concepts doesn't turn a reality warping feat into a conceptual manipulation feat.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@The pen or the sword Correction, the rings embody the emotions that bind the world together.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I self corrected somewhat, they may be connected to concepts/are concepts but that doesn't mean they allow one to manipulate concepts. Them recreating/changing the arabian nights still falls under powerful reality warping.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I don't understand how reshaping the Arabian Nights wouldn't involve its concepts.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

With reality warping one can reshape/rewrite the world, make the earth a cube/make oneself god. They can erase/create things from nothing, alter the laws of physics, the elements, even probablity with the correct application. Destroying/recreating a world, hell even a universe could and would still fall into reality warping rather then concept manip unless its presented in a specific way.

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Pen I agree with you that, yes, Reality Warping is broad and can be used in a shit ton of ways.

The difference is within the context of the Arabian Nights itself, where said concepts essentially are reality. It isn't basic reality warping due to what the story itself gives us, in which said concepts bind reality together. Destroy said reality, and you destroy said concepts when they manifest themselves in the way the World Rings do.

 

[RotofBots]

"Binding reality together" is what makes me skeptical of type 3 conceptual manipulation as it doesn't really fit under Aristotle's theory of forms. Aristotle was never under the impression that concepts "bound the world together or anything of the like. Quite the contrary, actually.

Furthermore, if these are indeed Aristotelian concepts, anyone who destroys the Arabian Nights' reality, whether they had conceptual destruction or not, would have destroyed the concepts regardless. Aristotelian forms are reliant on their objects in reality.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

^ I as a sonic fan agree with this

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Rot They're also stated to control reality, not just make up reality. Which means they "govern" reality, as the Conceptual Manipulation page would say. A lot is said about the World Rings in the game lol

 

[RotofBots]

"Governing reality" is just one aspect of that type of conceptual manipulation. Still on the fence regarding this.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

With that logic of "reshaping reality to his will/image" then every single one character who ever reality warped a universe should have conceptual manipulation you know.

 

[ShakeResounding]

1.) Alf Layla-Wa Layla destroyed reality first and foremost, he was gonna recreate it later. This isn't about just warping reality, it's about destroying it the reshaping it. Which ties into my next point.

2.) You guys keep bringing up the false equivelancy of the Arabian Nights universe being an ordinary universe with the way the concepts work, which is false. Please stop bringing that up, it's okay for something to break the norm but still be legit

 

[RotofBots]

If these proposed "Aristotelian concepts" of the Arabian Nights don't fully behave like the forms and concepts that Aristotle evisioned, who's to say they are indeed Aristotelian concepts?

This argument of "breaking the norm but still be legit" can be used for almost anything in fiction and leads to a slippery slope. Hence why this wiki has strict standards for things such as black holes. These proposed "concepts" should be held under the same scrutiny.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Don't fully behave like one? I thought they fit the bill pretty well. Also talk to Maverick more about this, I'm only going from what I've seen in the blog but he's actually watched/played it in full. He probably knows a lot more about the World Rings than I do

Some were acting as if it were impossible for concepts to exist like how they do in Secret Rings. Breaking the norm was in reference of the concepts, not site standards of all things. I'm not here for a mutiny or special treatment, Jesus lol

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Imma repeat a few things of what Woki And Real Cal said so you guys can let soothe into your mind and head because I don't agree with some parts of this as a sonic fan myself and believe it's wank to some extent, not by much but it is.

Wokistan: "Being powered by concepts doesn't mean you can manipulate them is what I was trying to say. Not sure about the definition yet yet either"

The real cal howard: "Arguments against it is that it's pure extrapolation, no offense of course. Peeps are saying a basic reality warping statement on a universal scale is implying concept manipulation, which regardless of type is wrong. It's a reach. It's not wank, not at all, I'm not going that far, but it is a reach."

And the new guy I never met before also has a point.

I don't agree with conceptual manipulation as a sonic fan myself. And I'd love to see major changes to Sonics profile like right now.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

It's at best Universal+ - possibly Low Multiverse Lvl you could argue that, since there were a total of 8 worlds in secret rings

Worlds usually classify as Dimensions in Sonic.

Also there are astral planes between them I believe.

That's what should have been the topic. Not the conceptual manipulation stuff.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Both Cal and Wok were already addressed but y'know what? This isn't worth the hassle.

I'll just drop the Conceptual Manipulation and add the other stuff. Everything else's been accepted.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

^ This Guy, I like him and his ideas

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

We can close the thread then.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Yes, we should.

 

[Theuser789]

If we are going to be editing Sonic's profile we should remove the part about catching up to the Eggmobile as a justification to Super Sonic speed, since even base has done that

.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I think CM Type 3 can still be argued for if Mav isn't willing to.

I mean, all the arguments are there already and we've responded to both Cal and Wok's arguments/concerns. If a conclusion can't be agreed upon but both sides still have valid arguments, there's always room for a reasonable conpromise.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

^ you never properly refuted their says tho. I'm not gonna argue this.

Close the thread it has reached it's peak, and seriously inb4 someone thinks of a way to downplay/discard this.

Close the thread