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Sonic Revision Summary

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Antvasima said:
This risks to turn into too many responses. Since Howard seems to be the only staff member who disagrees, I think that we can probably mostly go with Sera's suggestions.
Click to expand...
Dino Ranger Black and SomebodyData also disagree.
 
There's more arguments than just Cal disliking Tier 2 Super Sonic.

No one said they're ok with Metal Sonic yet or each era having separate pages. At this point I'm already exhausted.
 
Also, depending on if this gets accepted or not, I posted this suggestion for Super Sonic's tier in the last thread.

Attack Potency: Varies (The Chaos Emeralds are powered by Sonic's thoughts and feelings, and thus their power depends on his current emotions. See "Feats" for further clarification)

And then a Feats section for all the feats Super Sonic has.
 
@Ever

The problem is some staff don't like the idea of a "variable tier".
 
Wasn't having Sonic as a Tier 2 something that was a brought up by a "certain asshole of a user" last year only to be turned down?

What's the change to this now then?

Not trying to derail this or anything, i am rather confused as to what will now make Sonic a "Tier 2" of sorts.....for his Super form, right?
 
@Cross Yeah and he also brought up the idea of the Chaos Emeralds being variable which was turned down. I presume the difference is Sera is making better arguments for it and users don't have a natural (and kinda understandable) bias against her like with Davy.
 
Also, Sera, I don't mean to sound harsh, but the amount of research you put into something doesn't always affect the credibility of your arguments.

I've spent almost my entire life playing Kingdom Hearts, having gone through every game over and over and over again, reading through all the Ultimanias and even buying three gaming consoles just to play all the games (Including a Japanese cell phone), and I sure as hell wouldn't have called myself a good debater on the series until two years ago.
 
The lore of the Chaos Emeralds. Sonic's feats in Generations along with lots of information I have from interviews and supplementary material. But Tier 2 Super Sonic is not what is important. Rather, I want to focus on everyone's thoughts on separating Sonic into multiple eras as pages instead of keys. This way I'll easily be able to organize the information for the pages.
 
@Ryukama: Ah okay, thanks for the clarification.

For my thoughts on the variable tier.......to put it really short, i'm not sure of how that will work or something. I'm not against it or anything, but having something like that seems a bit odd for me if i had to really say here.

As for the other changes Sera have in mind, though, like separating stuff of the Sonic games......maybe? Is it a good thing or a bad thing in terms of tiering for our wikia pages of the verse here?
 
There's a difference though Ever. I have every Sonic source material ever including the Early Sonic Canon. Sonic is far older as a franchise than KH. This isn't about research. It's about being knowledgeable.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also, btw, the Sonic the Hedgehog producer confirmed in an interview that the World Rings are equal to the Chaos Emeralds.
Click to expand...
No. It was said that the World Rings were "alternate" forms of the Chaos Emeralds because the creators didn't want to resort to using them but instead use something new that added lore to the game.
 
Sera Loveheart said:
There's a difference though Ever. I have every Sonic source material ever including the Early Sonic Canon. Sonic is far older as a franchise than KH. This isn't about research. It's about being knowledgeable.
Click to expand...
But knowledge isn't everything, that's the point I was trying to make.

I've viewed basically every KH material in existence (Outside of V-Cast, but that's not canon anyway), but that doesn't automatically make me a good debater on the series, as I wasn't one until I was accustomed to this wiki.
 
Can we just get past the whole research and knowledge stuff? That is adding more stuff to this thread that in truth is not relevant. This will in turn make this harder to keep up with...
 
Okay fine whatever. That isn't important anyhow. Nothing anyone has bought up has countered what I said though and that is due to some apparent lack of knowledge but I digress. Fine, I agree with Dragon, let's move on.
 
Uh...it means everything when she's the only one with evidence that has yet to be countered with something other than "but it will cause 2-B Mario threads" and whatnot, which has nothing to do with Sonic's multiple eras due to so many retcons and changes.

I agree with Antvasima. These changes should be implemented outside of the Super Sonic stuff. We're never gonna reach a conclusion on that.
 
@_@

Can we please stop?

Nothing has been brought up as an argument against Super Sonic other than "I think this is an outlier". And you people are legit saying that Sera having played every single Sonic game and read pretty much every Sonic media is irrelevant.

What the actual ****. As a Sonic fan myself, I can safely say that my knowledge doesn't even get close to Sera's and that she is the most informed person on Sonic in this wiki.
 
"And you people are legit saying that Sera having played every single Sonic game and read pretty much every Sonic media is irrelevant."

Didn't you say yourself on a different thread that someone's knowledge of a series doesn't automatically make them a good debater?

Regardless, this isn't relevant anymore.
 
Yes, but she is a good debater.

Also, can you guys say the reason why you think Tier 2 Sonic is wrong other than just saying you think so?
 
It doesn't. But anyway, back on topic.

@Ever

Are you okay with the other stuff?
 
I'm not denying that Sera is likely extremely knowledgable in Sonic and certainly better versed than me and most people, but that's really just an irrelevant appeal to authority.

It's the actual facts themselves and the amount of evidence in one's arguments that matter. Whether someone is experienced in a field doesn't matter if they're wrong on one particular issue.

Not saying Sera isn't right however. I can't make a judgement on that and she does seem to make sense. Just saying that I agree someone being knowledgable on something doesn't immediately mean they're right. Yeah one is much less likely to be right if they do not have nearly as much knowledge on that thing as the other, but that isn't automatically the case.
 
@Ryu

I agree, but knowing very little about Sonic is worst. We had to explain to Cal that Super Sonic is not part of the plot in 4, Colors and Lost World. If you played the games you'd know.
 
I agree Ryu. I know what you guys meant.

Now that that's done...what about Metal Sonic >.>
 
That was stated outright by Eggman so...Metal Overlorld scales to Perfect Chaos, no in fact, he's superior.
 
@Sera

The problem is, what do we do with the other Super characters or those on their level? Characters like Imperator Ix, Knuckles, Metal Overlord, Perfect Dark Gaia, Nega-Wisp Mother, Tails, Devil Doom, Ultimate Gemerl and the like?

@Matt

Well, he is used during the final battle of the DS version of Colors, but yeah.
 
@Ever

We will rank villains by their own feats. Super Form should be 4-A at a minimum given how it would be > Final Egg Canon. So if the villain has no feat other than (Requires Super Form to be stopped), it would be that, I think.
 
I gave reaaoningrhough. While it led to circular arguments, I gave reasoning. Also, I knew that the CEs had nothing to do with the plot of 4.
 
@Ever

You weren't here so I don't mind re-explaining. Only an "elite few" of beings can harness the true power of the Chaos Emeralds. We now know that Takashi Iizuka has addressed in public that Super States are currently restricted to male hedgehogs, explaining for Knuckles and Tails' loss of their Super States in the Modern Era (Sonic Unleashed onwards). Blaze gets around this restriction due to the Sol Emeralds and her status as their guardian.

Now then:

Imperator Ix- Not sure exactly.

Knuckles- lost his super form. Scales to Classic Sonic.

Meta Overlord- As I said in the OP, he scales to Perfect Chaos, in fact he's superior due to adding the data of all the heroes. He didn't even use the chaos emeralds iirc.

Perfect Dark Gaia- Not a super form. A set tier works.

Nega-Wisp Mother- Not a super form. A set tier works.

Tails- Same as Knuckles. Super form only applies to classic era, Super form in Heroes lacks the full power Sonic had. Hence, his golden aura instead of actually going super, same with Knuckles.

Devil Doom- Not a super form. Set tier works.

Ultimate Gemerl- Scales to Adventure Super Sonic.
 
For years I always thought the Sonic Heroes Tails and Knuckles having auras instead of Super Forms was just the creators being lazy.

But what do you think of Matt's suggestion from above?
 
Would just like to say that as one of the biggest Sonic nerds on this board I 100% agree with Sera's suggestions. The only thing I was iffy on was separating by era, but it was explained later in the thread why so I'm cool with it now.
 
I'm good with the "at least 5-B, at most 2-C" mentioned in the OP, and yeah Sonic should have a classic and modern era divider regardless of whether or not their Super forms are equal to each other.
 
Okay. I think that Sera should be allowed to make her changes to the Sonic pages then.
 
Seems like she is not here... Also, in the end, do we change the super forms' tier or nah ? Because I wanna edit Silver's page
 
It is probably best to wait until she finds the time to perform the edits.
 
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