Sonic Revision Summary

[Sera_EX]

No it wouldn't. Because I am in the process of making a verse explanation thread for Sonic. Mario and Kirby are different matters, with different forms of continuity anyway. Sonic is fortunate enough that I have the information necessary to back him up.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I believe he's saying it's more of a double standard rather than an influx of threads. Or at least that's what I'd be arguing.

For example, when Fairy Tail does Nakama power ups, we laugh at them and call them outliers. Sonic and crew does it and suddenly it's tier 2.

 

[Promestein]

Variable tiers should only be used when there's a logical reason to use them, such as the exact power of a character varying depending on the situation, or if they're avatars of a higher being. The variable tier works here, and I don't have an issue with the scaling, though I think maybe "At least High 6-A, possibly 5-B" would be better for Base Modern Sonic, but it's not a big deal.

"I believe he's saying it's more of a double standard rather than an influx of threads. Or at least that's what I'd be arguing."

This is a different situation from either of those though. Also Paper Mario is 2-B anyways

 

[Sera_EX]

How on Earth is it a double standard?

 

[Cropfist]

Cal edited his post to explain.

 

[Promestein]

For example, when Fairy Tail does Nakama power ups, we laugh at them and call them outliers. Sonic and crew does it and suddenly it's tier 2.

One is PIS and one is a canonically developed and explained part of the universe and power source.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I edited an example in my previous response. If you want one from Mario and Kirby, I can do that too. Or at least for Kirby. Mario being tier 2 isn't smart w/out pure hearts.

Anyway, for Kirby, I brought up evidence of Kirby beating people using the Master Crown several times, and of Dark Mind's complete corruption of a universe, so much that even the dimensional portal connecting the two worlds transformed, and Azzy was kind enough to debunk my entire claim (if that came out as sarcastic, that's not my intent. It was supposed to be endearing)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Cal

You and Dark used these arguments in the old thread and they were shut down them.

It' not a "double standard" if Sonic has a canon, in-universe explanatio. That's like saying that ranking Pegasus Seiya as "3-A with Miracles" is a double-standard with Z Goku, Toriko, or Saitama.

It's not, because these series have no detailed, repeated explanation for sudden boosts in power.

It's not a Double Standard when Gurren Lagann, PreCure, Undertale and Saint Seiya all have similar things and they are all accepted.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Cal is this about the Chaos Emeralds again?

There is no longer a variable tier being proposed by me. Okay? That does NOT change Modern Super Sonic being Tier 2.

 

[VenomElite]

Seriously...how is Tier 2 contradicted? If you're confused, you're better off waiting for Sera's blog.

 

[SomebodyData]

I think we should just all wait for the blog before we go any further...

 

[Sera_EX]

Not really. The argument is against Tier 2 which makes no sense anymore. It's like at this point, no one wants a tier 2 Sonic at all because....reasons.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Spiral Power, DETERMINATION, and Miracles are forces, in which a large portion of the cast can tap into (many people in TTGL, humans in UT, and Saints in SS). Chaos emeralds restricts it to three or four people, and gives Sonic different power even though all are world breaking threats and he should be feeling the same way each time. Sonic's main statement supporting this is the fact that it turns thoughts into power. If there's more, remind me, as that thread was a while ago. But nowhere do I see positive emotions needed, or even emotions at all.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

ninja'd...

 

[Sera_EX]

Why are we still arguing about the chaos emeralds? '''Why?''' Even if we ignore that...again...Super Modern Sonic is '''still''' Tier 2. Nothing changes that...'''nothing'''.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, you're arguing for tier 2 Sonic without variation? You had a better argument for it. I don't mean for that to sound bad at all.

Also, why does Sonic have different continuity with Super Forms? Unlike a character like Goku, how often does he get the chance to train with it? He shouldn't increase it because his base did, as his base is nowhere near MSS.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah, well judging from the thread I believe that extra explanations may be needed. As I too need to understand these a tad more before I decide what side to take, especially since it being based off of Sonic's characterization and portrayal doesn't quite sound suitable for what you're suggesting.

Also what Cal just said makes sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@How

The Chaos Emeralds are so ******* variable that when powering the Ark Cannon the are 4-C, when powering the Egg Blaster they are 4-A, and when Sonic uses their power to the fullest he shows up to 2-C feats.

 

[Sera_EX]

I know so much about Sonic I can litetally argue for both. Variable 5-B to 2-C, or just 2-C for Modern Sonic doesn't matter to me. My revision is to split Sonic into eras and now I'll go a step further and give them separate pages. I'm tired of debating Super Sonic when I'm the only one bringing in-universe evidence to the table and have a blog to explain it in the works as we speak.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Matt.

The Chaos Emeralds didn't even power the 4-A weapon. They scale because the Egg Blaster is an inferior weapon.

Also, that's like saying Beerus is a variable as he was mildly hurt by SSJ Vegeta, and goes toe to toe while holding back with SSJG Goku. An outlier is an outlier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay, guys. Can you just spell out your doubts rather than just saying you don't agree? Peacefully write what you think in questions and we can answer them. I understand that there can be doubts seeing that Sonic isn't exactly very popular here (Hell, before Sera I'm pretty sure I was the closest person to knowledgeable about the Verse here, and I'm really not).

 

[Sera_EX]

So...we're still arguing about chaos emeralds... :/

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Sera. I've been trying to get Kirby to 3-A since I came here and I already have a blog that's on the taskbar on here. And I still didn't come anywhere close. Being the researcher doesn't mean much, trust me.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also @Sera. We kinda have to. They're what powers Super Sonic, and he's the only thing that people don't agree with.

 

[Dark649]

So we have.

Sonic:

1) In Sonic 06 Super Sonic, Shadow and Silver to match and defeat 2-B Solaris. [The Chaos Emeralds "Thoughts to Power"system]

2) In Sonic Generation Modern and Classic Super Sonic defeated Low 2-C Time Eater by hitting its weakpoint. [The Chaos Emeralds power seems to vary]

Mario:

1) In Super Paper Mario Paper Mario was powered by the Pure Hearts, which enabled him to defeat 2-B Super Dimentio. [The Pure Hearts power]

2) In Mario and Luigi Dream Team Mario and Dreamy Luigi fought and defeated 2-B Dreamy Bowser. [No powerups]

Kirby:

1) In Kirby Return To Dreamland Kirby, Metaknight, Dedede and Bandana Dee fought and defeated 3-A Magolor. [No powerups and it is the only tier 3 feat]

Fairy Tail:

1) Fairy Heart Zeref claims to his speel will collaps the timeline. [The only tier 2 feat after one tier 6 feat and two tier 6 statements, which is slow and is probably going to fail]

 

[Cropfist]

I still agree with cal.

 

[Promestein]

@Matt.

The Chaos Emeralds didn't even power the 4-A weapon. They scale because the Egg Blaster is an inferior weapon.

Also, that's like saying Beerus is a variable as he was mildly hurt by SSJ Vegeta, and goes toe to toe while holding back with SSJG Goku. An outlier is an outlier.

Beerus has a set strength and wasn't even legitimately hurt. The Chaos Emeralds are pretty consistently described as varying in power depending on emotions and thoughts and such.

 

[Sera_EX]

Maitreya help me...

I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but I'm more than just a "researcher". I have as much knowledge of Sonic as a physicist has of physics. But enough of that.

Now. Again, what is wrong with Tier 2 Post-Sonic Unleashed (2008) Modern Super Sonic? What could possibly be wrong with that given what I said about the eras? I'm tired of this already. I apologize for being so irritable but we're going around in circles when I already asked this exact same question thrice...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The fact that he was impressed speaks volumes. And again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the basis of this is the "Thoughts to Power" statement, right?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I still believe Sera and Matt mak more sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Dark

Mario and Kirby have fixed strengths, and the Pure Heart one is accepted so why bring it up?

The Chaos Emeralds don't.

 

[Sera_EX]

Please don't bring up "weakspots". That' a gameplay mechanic. Virtually every Final Boss in a Sonic game must be defeated by hitting it's weakspot. Death Egg Robot, Perfect Chaos, Finalhazard, Devil Doom, Solaris, Perfect Dark Gaia, and, Time Eater come to mind.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Sera, Matthew, VenomElite, Promestein, and Dragonmasterxyz.

 

[SomebodyData]

I apologize (But I haven't been following this thread that much), but I need to know, why should (assuming that the latent power of the Emeralds are based on the emotions/will of the user, as I think that's what's going on) Super Sonic be Tier 2 now, when he has faced threats who also posed a massive threat to the world prior?

The fact that this is being separated based on era (which is based on the personality of Sonic and potrayal) doesn't change the rules / showcasing of the power of the Emeralds unless explicitly stated.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wait, post 2008? Isn't the only tier 2 feat then just Generations? Everything else Sonic was in post Dark Gaia didn't even show planetary feats. And if we're scaling from Time Eater, then that means that Classic Super Sonic would be Tier 2, and that prongs all of his other outliers back, even disregarding the fact that Super Sonic should change with his base form.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Guess we need to downgrade Link to. Oh wait, no one ever brings up weakspots with Zelda. But they are bringing it up here. Why tho?

 

[Ryukama]

I'll repost what I said in the last thread.

If the Chaos Emeralds vary in power based upon certain circumstances. And that this is canon, explicit concept and not just a plausible theory based on feats and vague statements, then a variable tier is more than justified.

Whether or not this is the case I'll leave to the rest of staff to decide upon.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yes it does SD, because the Chaos Emeralds from the Classic Era are fundamentally different than those from the Adventure Era and the Emeralds in the Modern Era are fundamentally different still (Gaia Temples for example). They still transform thoughts into power.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Sera Ah I see, and I'm assuming this is explicitly stated?

@Cal you don't say?... hmmm

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Matt. Because Ganon, Majora, the Nightmares (debatable), and Demise don't have weak points, and they're the only ones based on scaling. Every other feat is by Link himself. But I know that's not the point you're tying to make.