Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Issen_Mk_III]

People on Twitter bitching about the lightning again like Super Sonic hasn't had it longer than most of them have been alive. Brand synergy this, copying the flash that,bla,bla,bla. Base form I could see a valid argument for being against,but saying he should never have it is dumb or that he's never had it before the films is factually incorrect. Personally I like Base=wind,Super=lightning.

 

[JJSliderman]

.....what are you talking about? nothing on there removes Hypertimeline......it honestly makes it more explicit

If you say so. I still feel like I don’t fully grasp the entirety of what constitutes a hypertimeline, only enough that verses which solve erased timelines via time travel likely having them.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Before Time Eater got full-on cosmology scaling, he was actually 2-C for this exact reason.

Yeah I remember that, actually. And out of curiosity: I decided to watch a video of the Japanese dub of Sonic Forces ugh... to see if it said anything about Classic Sonic and, interestingly enough, Tails states that Classic Sonic is the "Sonic from another world" instead of dimension like in the English dub.

So with that in mind? Shadow Generations made it a bit more explicit by calling these points in time their own separate timelines.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah I remember that, actually. And out of curiosity: I decided to watch a video of the Japanese dub of Sonic Forces ugh... to see if it said anything about Classic Sonic and, interestingly enough, Tails states that Classic Sonic is the "Sonic from another world" instead of dimension like in the English dub.

So with that in mind? Shadow Generations made it a bit more explicit by calling these points in time their own separate timelines.

Do they use smthn like “arayuru jikanjiku”? That can mean “point in time” as well.

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

People on Twitter bitching about the lightning again like Super Sonic hasn't had it longer than most of them have been alive. Brand synergy this, copying the flash that,bla,bla,bla. Base form I could see a valid argument for being against,but saying he should never have it is dumb or that he's never had it before the films is factually incorrect. Personally I like Base=wind,Super=lightning.

"Wah,lighting makes him a generic speedster,wind is unique to Sonic" is one hell of a funny statement when you realize that The Flash,Quicksilver,& various other speedsters have been doing vortex feats for decades.

 

[MysticMania]

Not to be mean, but, I honestly think it's pretty obvious that Time Eater is affecting more than one timeline/universe. Crisis City, the Special Stages in 3DS Gens, Mephiles, and probably some other stuff.
Granted, I haven't seen many go for the idea of Time Eater affecting just a single universe, but like, you'd need to argue that Sonic CD's Bad Future is the future, and that all 06 stuff didn't get erased from time, right?
But some will simply believe what is more convenient for them. Valid to believe this, but ignorance is an easy wave to be pulled under by.

Edit. This comment is meaner than I meant for it to be, but, it isn't targeted towards anyone specific. I often do see people cling to beliefs, because they already believe them. I get it, really, but it is not a healthy mindset. Especially in a space that is inherently built off of accepting, discussing, asking, and learning. Like, those who believe VS is objective, to me, lose the point of VS in the first place.

 

[Theuser789]

Man, Fox just really has it out for this blue rat huh

 

[Theuser789]

You mean the original Japanese script? Yeah, that's what we're saying, including Ian himself.

Going to be honest, Pepto, some people are not worth arguing with. The people you're arguing are basically agenda pushers that don't really want to argue in good faith. Sometimes the best course of action is to disengage, really.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Going to be honest, Pepto, some people are not worth arguing with. The people you're arguing are basically agenda pushers that don't really want to argue in good faith. Sometimes the best course of action is to disengage, really.

This. You gotta take the good with the bad, and the bad is having your ratings shit on and made fun of or called a shill. Aside from 70% of the people I consistently talk to on the internet being here, the attitudes are typically why I stay around VSBW most often (ironic, I know).

That, and this place feels like a flavor of home to me.

 

[Starsprite53]

Going to be honest, Pepto, some people are not worth arguing with. The people you're arguing are basically agenda pushers that don't really want to argue in good faith. Sometimes the best course of action is to disengage, really.

Damn, despite I disagree with cosmology Time Eater scaling and I believe he's only uni+, I don't approve of this spiteful behaviour from redditors

 

[ShakeResounding]

Edit. This comment is meaner than I meant for it to be, but, it isn't targeted towards anyone specific.

Pffft. If THIS was you being meaner than you wanted to be, I'd hate to see you downright furious.

Jokes aside, no, none of what you said was mean because you were just pushing forward logic using in-game examples.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Good timing. @Starsprite53 is a good example of an individual who disagrees with our scaling but doesn't act like an asshole or openly make an ass out of himself by being sarcastic about it.

That aside, Reddit will be Reddit. I'm sure we all secretly love each other

 

[Dust_Collector]

More Shadow games are inevitable between this and the new movie coming in 2 months, geniunely the best time for the franchise since the 90s and very early 2000s

 

[Theuser789]

We reached the good future.

 

[MysticMania]

Gosh. I truly do look forward to the future.

I honestly hope, if Shadow becomes his own franchise, they allow the tone to be overall more mature there. I won't be surprised if they don't of course, but Shadow's entire life has been wrapped in death, and I would really love to see a franchise focusing on him that can just go into that, fully.

 

[ShakeResounding]

If Shadow 05 did well and we recieved a line of Shadow-centered games running alongside Sonic, I wonder what that Meta Era would've been like

 

[Theuser789]

If Shadow 05 did well and we recieved a line of Shadow-centered games running alongside Sonic, I wonder what that Meta Era would've been like

Non-existent.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

If Shadow 05 did well and we recieved a line of Shadow-centered games running alongside Sonic, I wonder what that Meta Era would've been like

It would've preserved Sonic's image as a badass icon well enough to prevent the Meta era from being called the Meta era.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I have a PSA for anyone who's playing Shadow Generations: you don't need to wait for the animation of Shadow activating his Doom Wings to use his power, just keep pressing the trigger/button (depending on if you use controller or a keyboard) and Shadow will skip the animation so you can use it as soon as possible.

Another tip of advice: the game doesn't tell you this to my understanding, but if you're using the Doom Morph and you let go while underneath a purple target, you can fling up above it. This is especially useful on levels like Chaos Island Act 1.

 

[FaceOff81]

Damn, despite I disagree with cosmology Time Eater scaling and I believe he's only uni+, I don't approve of this spiteful behaviour from redditors

Time Eater is far above Universial+

 

[Starsprite53]

Time Eater is far above Universial+

I beg to differ, but we can argue about it in private

 

[Executor_N0]

Sonic x Shadow Generations: Gerald’s Notes

Visit the post for more.

browniehideout.wordpress.com

Windi's translation of the JP Gerald Journal. Some stuff from the English-script was included here, but also some JP only material (Like Gerald mentioning he has full control over Shadow's memories, something that kinda teased a plot point about the real Shadow never being found, but that lore never existed on the USA version, so kinda curious they added it to JP).

 

[Executor_N0]

I fear that every time a new Sonic project is released this same thing will be re-stated because Sonic fans just can't learn how this kind of franchise is managed (The entire process has basically been the same as the previous ones and yet they still fear everything will change).

 

[FaceOff81]

I fear that every time a new Sonic project is released this same thing will be re-stated because Sonic fans just can't learn how this kind of franchise is managed (The entire process has basically been the same as the previous ones and yet they still fear everything will change).

Elaborate on this please. Mainly on how the lore/story is written, who all is doing it, and how to properly determine its canonicity in the franchise.

 

[Executor_N0]

Elaborate on this please. Mainly on how the lore/story is written, who all is doing it, and how to properly determine its canonicity in the franchise.

First you have the start of the planning that can appear from basically any branch (Even The Murder of Sonic The Hedgehog), what is needed from there depends on the project. Something like a mainline game will have an outline made by the producer or director before getting a writer, content can be chosen by them without even the writer knowing.

For example, stuff like Sonic Frontiers and Sonic Superstars had the entire lore decided beforehand by the director and producer, with both cases having a ton of lore that is missing from the script but exists on the director's notes. Sonic Frontiers got the chance of the Japanese script being used to detail more of the director's worldview, but a lot of Superstars' lore continues to be hidden.

As the writer does the script writing, the Lore Team revises the content from the Western side and the Sonic Character Supervisors from the Japanese side, people like Ian Flynn, Chris Hernandez, and others are from the Western side as the Lore Team, while the Japanese side it's people like Eitaro Toyoda, Kazuyuki Hoshino, etc. The objective is to have everything fit with the overall accepted view of Sonic.

How much they will look over everything depends on the project and scope of course, there needs to be some free range, if not whole projects can be frozen in the middle of revision with nothing happening at all.

The important part is that basically, everything released in the last few years had at least to fit with that process, some more than others.

This means that at least revised stuff that is released had to at least "make sense with the lore" (Sonic Prime is technically an exception, as they literally ignored the supervision and still released the series). Look past script specifics, if it's about the lore, the existing material needs to make sense together, so the way it's spoken matters less than the lore itself.

That is how you can get stuff like Sonic Frontiers having two different scripts and both being canon, it's less that the specific writing matters and more that the lore, character understanding and stuff you get from the writing. You have X stuff being said in one script and Y stuff being said in another one, if both can coexist, then just assume that in an ideal version of the script both things are happening at the same time.


This whole thing isn't without mistakes (Again, Sonic Prime), and revisions are happening at all times with stuff happening behind doors that kinda can change the whole canon sometimes happening without us knowing until it comes back (Look at the times Flynn mentioned conversations the Lore Team had about making stuff non-canon, only for stuff that confirmed that was canon to happen later on. The behind-the-scenes canon isn't fixed even in a single region and can change before being officially released).

Of course, since at that point, the lore and character matter more than just continuity, there is stuff that isn't part of the "timeline", but still has canon elements. With the degree of "canon" varying over time. So you have stuff like Sonic Battle being semi-canon because not everything from it fits in the timeline, but the lore and overall events, of course, are part of the timeline, you have stuff like Murder of Sonic The Hedgehog or the Sonic content on Sonic Speed Simulator that although officially not "part of the timeline", still were revised and made to fit with the overall lore and characters, so the content still "is usable" even though the events aren't.

There's a lot of nuance depending on certain projects, but really the current view for the franchise is much more on having the whole playground with all the toys to play with than limiting everything (The Movie content was the one thing they actually thought of making standalone, but it seems that now thanks to the Multiverse the Movie content can crossover with Game content).

 

[MysticMania]

I fear that every time a new Sonic project is released this same thing will be re-stated because Sonic fans just can't learn how this kind of franchise is managed (The entire process has basically been the same as the previous ones and yet they still fear everything will change).

I feel like I need to study up on Aizen Bleach because I swear some people act like he's Ian Flynn

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Shadow Generations was glorious, easy 9/10. Though I am interested in how the Doom Powers potentially affect scaling (Apologies for no scans, I was too engrossed on playing the game lol):

Spoiler

First off, it’s clear that Doom Wings is a significant amp based off of both gameplay and its portrayal in the story. As such nobody directly scales to Doom Wings Shadow and Neo Devil Doom, at least as far as I’m aware (at the very least base cast don’t). This includes “base” Complete Shadow, his other Doom Powers and Devil Doom. While Shadow does begin the fight with Doom Wings, he doesn’t actually do any damage and avoids all of Devil Doom’s attacks before switching to Doom Surf, so there’s no real scaling between them.

Where things get interesting though is with Shadow gaining Doom Powers in general. It is heavily implied to be a general power boost to his base level every time he unlocks a new one, though the question then becomes how notable this increase is (or whether that even matters). My initial thought was to use the Doom’s Eye sections to suggest the increase was negligible, however since Black Doom grows in power alongside Shadow that logic doesn’t hold up.

I then thought to Sonic vs Shadow and how Shadow refused to use his Doom Powers, in which case the question now becomes if the power boost in general is activated, or if it’s passive and constant and only the abilities are activated. Considering how Shadow doesn’t constantly have the Doom Power aura during normal gameplay (where he would logically be using that power especially during bosses) and he isn’t portrayed as immeasurably stronger when we do see it, I would say that Shadow either only gets a small boost when he calls upon it or that the aura sometimes showing just isn’t important (kinda like Dragon Ball which does both of these). All this to say, Sonic and the rest of the base cast should scale to Metal Overlord via Shadow. Also Omega at one point states that Sonic and Shadow are physically equals, however I’m not sure if he has any way of knowing Shadow’s power increase.

Also a couple other things I wanted to bring up:

Spoiler

During one of the Doom’s Eye sections, he calls the place they’re in a “realm” that he created and had power over. I’m not sure if this adds anything scaling-wise though since I don’t recall any direct evidence they were significant in size, however I think this place is meant to be the same one as the Radical Highway seen within the Black Moon? If so then maybe there’s something there, but even then I ain’t sure since the Black Moon only does its Doom Zone thing at full power. However this brings me to a different question: is there any way for Black Doom or Devil Doom to scale to the full power Black Moon, or are Doom Wings Shadow and Neo Devil Doom the only ones?

Another thing is we can maybe do something with Devil Doom’s various “perfect being/ultimate lifeform” statements found in both of his appearances, as well as him calling Shadow his masterpiece/greatest creation/testament to his bloodline, however I’m not sure if they would reasonably scale above anything aside from Metal Overlord and Black Moon for their Gens appearances (which are both obviously already a given). Wait, I think I just made an argument for Devil Doom and Complete Shadow scaling to Black Moon.

Another thing is that we’ll probably have to make Devil Doom a non-Emerald form due to Black Doom transforming into him without any, which I think was already brought up. I do find it interesting though how he seems to be smaller than his original version and also has a smaller sphere in place of the Black Comet. Not sure if that means anything.

 

[FaceOff81]

First you have the start of the planning that can appear from basically any branch (Even The Murder of Sonic The Hedgehog), what is needed from there depends on the project. Something like a mainline game will have an outline made by the producer or director before getting a writer, content can be chosen by them without even the writer knowing.

For example, stuff like Sonic Frontiers and Sonic Superstars had the entire lore decided beforehand by the director and producer, with both cases having a ton of lore that is missing from the script but exists on the director's notes. Sonic Frontiers got the chance of the Japanese script being used to detail more of the director's worldview, but a lot of Superstars' lore continues to be hidden.

As the writer does the script writing, the Lore Team revises the content from the Western side and the Sonic Character Supervisors from the Japanese side, people like Ian Flynn, Chris Hernandez, and others are from the Western side as the Lore Team, while the Japanese side it's people like Eitaro Toyoda, Kazuyuki Hoshino, etc. The objective is to have everything fit with the overall accepted view of Sonic.

How much they will look over everything depends on the project and scope of course, there needs to be some free range, if not whole projects can be frozen in the middle of revision with nothing happening at all.

The important part is that basically, everything released in the last few years had at least to fit with that process, some more than others.

This means that at least revised stuff that is released had to at least "make sense with the lore" (Sonic Prime is technically an exception, as they literally ignored the supervision and still released the series). Look past script specifics, if it's about the lore, the existing material needs to make sense together, so the way it's spoken matters less than the lore itself.

That is how you can get stuff like Sonic Frontiers having two different scripts and both being canon, it's less that the specific writing matters and more that the lore, character understanding and stuff you get from the writing. You have X stuff being said in one script and Y stuff being said in another one, if both can coexist, then just assume that in an ideal version of the script both things are happening at the same time.


This whole thing isn't without mistakes (Again, Sonic Prime), and revisions are happening at all times with stuff happening behind doors that kinda can change the whole canon sometimes happening without us knowing until it comes back (Look at the times Flynn mentioned conversations the Lore Team had about making stuff non-canon, only for stuff that confirmed that was canon to happen later on. The behind-the-scenes canon isn't fixed even in a single region and can change before being officially released).

Of course, since at that point, the lore and character matter more than just continuity, there is stuff that isn't part of the "timeline", but still has canon elements. With the degree of "canon" varying over time. So you have stuff like Sonic Battle being semi-canon because not everything from it fits in the timeline, but the lore and overall events, of course, are part of the timeline, you have stuff like Murder of Sonic The Hedgehog or the Sonic content on Sonic Speed Simulator that although officially not "part of the timeline", still were revised and made to fit with the overall lore and characters, so the content still "is usable" even though the events aren't.

There's a lot of nuance depending on certain projects, but really the current view for the franchise is much more on having the whole playground with all the toys to play with than limiting everything (The Movie content was the one thing they actually thought of making standalone, but it seems that now thanks to the Multiverse the Movie content can crossover with Game content).

Damn. What an amazing explanation here. Makes sense of course. Explains a lot of why events and personality quirks are present in the writing (sometimes in two different regions differing yet still being canon).

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Sonic Question Time: So with Shadow Generations now being out for all to enjoy, we were given six very solidly designed and structured stages to sink out teeth into. So after completing the game, or after making significant progress in the game, what would you all say is your favorite stage thus far in Shadow Generations?

Mine, surprisingly, is Chaos Island Act 1. I initially didn't like the stage due to my lack of inexperience with the Doom Morph and the general vibe of the stage, but I've grown to love it. Its shorter length makes it really fun to speedrun through, and I love seeing how much time I can shave off by the end using strategic usages of Chaos Control.

 

[Theuser789]

Shadow Generations was glorious, easy 9/10. Though I am interested in how the Doom Powers potentially affect scaling (Apologies for no scans, I was too engrossed on playing the game lol):

Spoiler

First off, it’s clear that Doom Wings is a significant amp based off of both gameplay and its portrayal in the story. As such nobody directly scales to Doom Wings Shadow and Neo Devil Doom, at least as far as I’m aware (at the very least base cast don’t). This includes “base” Complete Shadow, his other Doom Powers and Devil Doom. While Shadow does begin the fight with Doom Wings, he doesn’t actually do any damage and avoids all of Devil Doom’s attacks before switching to Doom Surf, so there’s no real scaling between them.

Where things get interesting though is with Shadow gaining Doom Powers in general. It is heavily implied to be a general power boost to his base level every time he unlocks a new one, though the question then becomes how notable this increase is (or whether that even matters). My initial thought was to use the Doom’s Eye sections to suggest the increase was negligible, however since Black Doom grows in power alongside Shadow that logic doesn’t hold up.

I then thought to Sonic vs Shadow and how Shadow refused to use his Doom Powers, in which case the question now becomes if the power boost in general is activated, or if it’s passive and constant and only the abilities are activated. Considering how Shadow doesn’t constantly have the Doom Power aura during normal gameplay (where he would logically be using that power especially during bosses) and he isn’t portrayed as immeasurably stronger when we do see it, I would say that Shadow either only gets a small boost when he calls upon it or that the aura sometimes showing just isn’t important (kinda like Dragon Ball which does both of these). All this to say, Sonic and the rest of the base cast should scale to Metal Overlord via Shadow. Also Omega at one point states that Sonic and Shadow are physically equals, however I’m not sure if he has any way of knowing Shadow’s power increase.

Also a couple other things I wanted to bring up:

Spoiler

During one of the Doom’s Eye sections, he calls the place they’re in a “realm” that he created and had power over. I’m not sure if this adds anything scaling-wise though since I don’t recall any direct evidence they were significant in size, however I think this place is meant to be the same one as the Radical Highway seen within the Black Moon? If so then maybe there’s something there, but even then I ain’t sure since the Black Moon only does its Doom Zone thing at full power. However this brings me to a different question: is there any way for Black Doom or Devil Doom to scale to the full power Black Moon, or are Doom Wings Shadow and Neo Devil Doom the only ones?

Another thing is we can maybe do something with Devil Doom’s various “perfect being/ultimate lifeform” statements found in both of his appearances, as well as him calling Shadow his masterpiece/greatest creation/testament to his bloodline, however I’m not sure if they would reasonably scale above anything aside from Metal Overlord and Black Moon for their Gens appearances (which are both obviously already a given). Wait, I think I just made an argument for Devil Doom and Complete Shadow scaling to Black Moon.

Another thing is that we’ll probably have to make Devil Doom a non-Emerald form due to Black Doom transforming into him without any, which I think was already brought up. I do find it interesting though how he seems to be smaller than his original version and also has a smaller sphere in place of the Black Comet. Not sure if that means anything.

We're going to make a CRT about it but the Black Moon absolutely scales to Black Doom. The main issue is which form, base or Devil Doom.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Spoiler: More Black Doom musing

I’m also wondering about how we’ll re-format Black Doom’s profile after this, considering both his base and Devil Doom have Adventure and Modern era appearances. We could maybe just do what Metal’s profile does with Neo and have each form have their own key for each era, however if we do change the nature of the Devil Doom form on the wiki then it might be neater to cover both forms in the same key like with Mephiles’ monstrous form (not to mention both of them can seemingly shift between them at will). Something like:

Spoiler

Tier: 4-B, at least 2-C as Devil Doom | 2-C, up to [insert tier here], [insert tier here] as Devil Doom | (Low?) 1-C**

Key: Adventure Era | Modern Era | Neo Devil Doom

*I’m not sure how to classify the “gets stronger alongside Shadow” thing. My mind keeps drifting towards Reactive Evolution but I’m sure that’s not right. I’m also not sure which tier endgame Black Doom and Devil Doom would fall into due to weirdness with Metal Overlord and Black Doom.

**I’m not sure whether Neo Devil Doom will fall into Low 1-C or 1-C, but it should be one of the two.

Thoughts?

Also as far as Metal Overlord’s tier is concerned, I’m gonna wait for Omega’s Perfect Chaos thread to see if I agree with his argument about Perfect Chaos being full power Super form tier. If not then I’d say Metal Overlord should either massively upscale from the Emeralds’ baseline or upscale from the Maginaryworld stuff, based on how Team Sonic were clearly at their at the time peak of power and how the Sonic Advance ”unimaginable power” scan arguably puts the Chaos Emeralds above Maginaryworld stuff. Although depending on the evidence for Perfect Chaos I might push for him to work the same way.

I am very much against Perfect Chaos being deemed an outlier thanks to the additions to Shadow Gens, however I’m also very iffy on base cast potentially getting 1-C through this. While I did push for it as a joke before due to the weird amount of support for it, the humour of it has died down for me so now I’m not sure about it. Low 1-C is also kinda wack even if the argument hold up, but it’s an OK middle ground and is supported by the argument Infinite upscales from Void.

 

[Theuser789]

Spoiler: More Black Doom musing

I’m also wondering about how we’ll re-format Black Doom’s profile after this, considering both his base and Devil Doom have Adventure and Modern era appearances. We could maybe just do what Metal’s profile does with Neo and have each form have their own key for each era, however if we do change the nature of the Devil Doom form on the wiki then it might be neater to cover both forms in the same key like with Mephiles’ monstrous form (not to mention both of them can seemingly shift between them at will). Something like:

Spoiler

Tier: 4-B, at least 2-C as Devil Doom | 2-C, up to [insert tier here], [insert tier here] as Devil Doom | (Low?) 1-C**

Key: Adventure Era | Modern Era | Neo Devil Doom

*I’m not sure how to classify the “gets stronger alongside Shadow” thing. My mind keeps drifting towards Reactive Evolution but I’m sure that’s not right. I’m also not sure which tier endgame Black Doom and Devil Doom would fall into due to weirdness with Metal Overlord and Black Doom.

**I’m not sure whether Neo Devil Doom will fall into Low 1-C or 1-C, but it should be one of the two.

Thoughts?

Also as far as Metal Overlord’s tier is concerned, I’m gonna wait for Omega’s Perfect Chaos thread to see if I agree with his argument about Perfect Chaos being full power Super form tier. If not then I’d say Metal Overlord should either massively upscale from the Emeralds’ baseline or upscale from the Maginaryworld stuff, based on how Team Sonic were clearly at their at the time peak of power and how the Sonic Advance ”unimaginable power” scan arguably puts the Chaos Emeralds above Maginaryworld stuff. Although depending on the evidence for Perfect Chaos I might push for him to work the same way.

I am very much against Perfect Chaos being deemed an outlier thanks to the additions to Shadow Gens, however I’m also very iffy on base cast getting 1-C through this. While I did push for it as a joke before due to the weird amount of support for it, the humour of it has died down for me so now I’m not sure about it. Low 1-C is also kinda wack even if the argument hold up, but it’s an OK middle ground and is supported by the argument Infinite upscales from Void.

We're also working on Black Doom’s page. He will have an Adventure and Modern key.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

We're going to make a CRT about it but the Black Moon absolutely scales to Black Doom. The main issue is which form, base or Devil Doom.

I’d say base Black Doom probably scales to base Black Moon due to the implication that every Radical Highway section is set in the Black Moon (also I think it was said Black Doom created the Black Moon itself but I’m not sure if I’m remembering that right). The issue comes with full power Black Moon.

We're also working on Black Doom’s page. He will have an Adventure and Modern key.

No doubt about that, just mainly wondering if Devil Doom will be handled more like Neo Metal or Mephiles’ monstrous form.

Idk why I’m even spoiler tagging this stuff lol, seems kinda pointless now that I think about it.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

BTW, the Japanese translation (timestamp is 18:25) has Shadow seemingly state that Generations Sonic is more powerful than Metal Overlord, which lines up nicely with Shadow getting another Doom Power amp between this and his battle with Sonic (I don’t remember if the English translation has the same line or how it compares to the Japanese line). This would suggest that the physical boost with the amps is actually passive and that Omega’s statement about the two being equal is considering the four amps Shadow had at the time. Either that or there is no increase in strength, however considering how it’s constantly framed as Shadow growing stronger I doubt that’s the case.

If useable then that makes another reason why I’m against potentially considering the Perfect Chaos fight an outlier again.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

BTW, the Japanese translation (timestamp is 18:25) has Shadow seemingly state that Generations Sonic is more powerful than Metal Overlord, which lines up nicely with Shadow getting another Doom Power amp between this and his battle with Sonic (I don’t remember if the English translation has the same line or how it compares to the Japanese line). This would suggest that the physical boost with the amps is actually passive and that Omega’s statement about the two being equal is considering the four amps Shadow had at the time. Either that or there is no increase in strength, however considering how it’s constantly framed as Shadow growing stronger I doubt that’s the case.

If useable then that makes another reason why I’m against potentially considering the Perfect Chaos fight an outlier again.

"If that's all you can do, then you'll never reach his level"
Yeah um... This is seriously as blatant as it gets. Not only does it imply that Shadow is disappointed in Metal Overlord's capabilities, but he's also implying the gap between him and Sonic is significant.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

"If that's all you can do, then you'll never reach his level"
Yeah um... This is seriously as blatant as it gets. Not only does it imply that Shadow is disappointed in Metal Overlord's capabilities, but he's also implying the gap between him and Sonic is significant.

Yup, and it also suggests that each Doom Power amp is significant as well which is pretty useful to know. The vagueness of the strength increases before made it hard to know whether or not Sonic could potentially downscale from Devil Doom or something, but now I’m fairly confident in saying he shouldn’t*. Unless there’s something I’m missing in the game or some way to retroactively scale Infinite to him or something lol

*By this I specifically just mean the amped Devil Doom seen at the end of the game, as since Shadow and Black Doom grow in strength at a similar pace Sonic should upscale from the original Devil Doom. Doesn’t really mean much beyond even more 2-C support, but still nice.

 

[StrangeDays20]

Lets say Shadow Overlord feat got accepted I'm wondering if it would be easier to simply only scale Sonic and Shadow (or maybe other top tiers of the cast) to 1-C if we can't Shadow beating Metal Overlord into consideration, since they've been stated to be equals and Sonic also beat Choas who needed a Super Form to be beaten before. Therefore you don't have to scale all Sonic characters to 1-C is that possible?

Also I would be interested in what Shadow Generations does for Black Dooms scaling.

 

[JJSliderman]

If base Sonic is scaled to Overlord, then everyone else kinda has to scale too by the time Forces rolls around.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Since someone is trying to get evidence for 1-C base cast scaling (sounds crazy to me), would the adventure era be Low 1-C based on facing against Transformed Void?

 

[StrangeDays20]

Yup, and it also suggests that each Doom Power amp is significant as well which is pretty useful to know. The vagueness of the strength increases before made it hard to know whether or not Sonic could potentially downscale from Devil Doom or something, but now I’m fairly confident in saying he shouldn’t*. Unless there’s something I’m missing in the game or some way to retroactively scale Infinite to him or something lol

*By this I specifically just mean the amped Devil Doom seen at the end of the game, as since Shadow and Black Doom grow in strength at a similar pace Sonic should upscale from the original Devil Doom. Doesn’t really mean much beyond even more 2-C support, but still nice.

I personally disagree with the Doom Powers being an amp, yes they make Shadow stronger that's because they give him more abilities making him a more versatile fighter rather than increasing his strength and speed.