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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

Eden_Warlock99 said:
I feel like Metal definitely did a lot (One-shot Base Bowser, overpowered Fury Bowser, took out Kamek, knocked out Jr. and so on)
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You're right. I somehow glossed over him working everybody in my defense i'm at work and could barely see I'm moreso surprised by the fact he didnt display his copy ability at all. But the goat was the mvp, my mistake.

Still disappointed with Sage, though. I expected more from my girl, and frankly—Edit: It was his leadership they questioned... which... still... SAGE IS RIGHT THERE. I do like how the ending scene has her plotting though which could either be interpreted as her planning vengeance or officially working with Bowser.
 
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Theuser789 said:
The fact we only got Super Neo as the super form tier character in the animation is so lame, too.
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Eh I'm of the opinion that Neo metal was the coolest option they could have went with so I'm not annoyed that he was the one to put in work. Especially since the animation had to be somewhat short. But I am annoyed that the death was just kinda lame.
 
FaceOff81 said:
After reading your replies here, I can see why you feel the way you do here even if I disagree. I will like to mention a few things though. His Plot Manipulation is 100% valid as shown starting in Issue 14 as he used it as a means to defeat Eggman. Other than that, we see him interacting with Humans from the real world (Sonic-Live) and Off-Panel as a whole where we see more Plot Manipulation. When using it narratively when it mattered, we see that through Off-Panel that they follow scripts on how stories are meant to be played out but sometimes, they go in and change details in certain stories to make it flow better while still winning in the end (Off-Panel is weird to say the least). I know others will disagree and chalk-it up to an Omake, but I've failed to see consistent evidence as such being the case. I've seen it as more so being completely separated from the main verse as a whole. That I will say is an argument for another time. As such, I do believe there is merit to Archie Sonic using it as a means of combat through Issue 14, Sonic-Live, and Off-Panel. If people disagree, then so be it and that's fine since I can disagree with them as well. Regarding Archie Sonic being outerversial, there are multiple plays at hand that support such a case with Off-Panel being R > F (Yeah I said it fight me) and stuff in the cosmology that more or less so point to it being the case, but those threads are currently in the works if I remember correctly. I never heard of this microverse ad-infinitum thing whatsoever so I'll agree with you there. At least we both can agree that Archie Sonic as a whole doesn't make sense at all.

I won't disagree here since there have been some cases where I was scratching my head, but there are some merit to a lot of those to do argue for it even if it isn't the best argued.
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I don't see how this one-off moment justifies it being used as an entirety across the entire verse. Just feels like a one and done situation, especially since this is a Silver Age, early comic thing that is pretty much never used again. Off-Panel just seems like author insertion or something adjacent to that. It's like saying Arale from Dragon Ball beating up Toribot makes her outerversal, beyond the creator-god level or something. It just sounds dumb. I personally just wouldn't that any of that seriously in an actual debate and seems more like wank for the sake of wank oftentimes. I respect the fact that you aren't toxic about it, even if I do disagree with what you say.
 
BIggest gripe was with the Ruby and Egg Field, but that's just DB going the "range = potency" route like this site used to do a few years back with stuff like mind hax, Going by site standards, the Egg Field would just overpower via its layers and render the universal Wonder Flower pointless.

For the Phantom Ruby, I think they conveniently forgot that it isn't just illusions. It's Subjective Reality, why would the Resistance have feared that Sun at all otherwise? That didn't make much sense.

Glad they went the route of similar stats. I'm content overall.
 
FaceOff81 said:
I will agree that Ian Flynn isn't a powerscaler but I do take a lot of the statements cosmology wise seriously. Stuff that I do not take seriously is stuff like him agreeing that Ultra Sonic > Super Sonic while ALSO SAYING that Dark Enerjak > Ultra Sonic because it would make things more narratively interesting when it has shown that even at the tail end of the Pre-Genesis Wave, Super Sonic > Dark Enerjak through nuking the entire multiverse erasing Enerjak and the Chaos Force as a whole (along with all of the other higher dimensions and uncountable infinite timelines present where Dark Enerjak is apart of it). With my reasoning stated earlier, Ultra Sonic > Super Sonic so Ultra Sonic should be able to beat Dark Enerjak in an easier manner. The rest of your reply I do agree with as a whole.
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I don't think that's really any reason to make Super Sonic weaker than Ultra Sonic. Seems like a taped-together reasoning for a form that's never truly explained. It just doesn't have the feats and I can't agree with this. It's really just 007-ing right now.
 
ShakeResounding said:
BIggest gripe was with the Ruby and Egg Field, but that's just DB going the "range = potency" route like this site used to do a few years back with stuff like mind hax, Going by site standards, the Egg Field would just overpower via its layers and render the universal Wonder Flower pointless.

For the Phantom Ruby, I think they conveniently forgot that it isn't just illusions. It's Subjective Reality, why would the Resistance have feared that Sun at all otherwise? That didn't make much sense.

Glad they went the route of similar stats. I'm content overall.
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Since I was dooming about it for months, I am weirdly at peace, now. I am shocked I was right about EVERYTHING in terms of pessimism. Rock on haxlord Bowser, rock on.
 
To make myself feel better, I'm going to headcanon that while Sage was plotting against Bowser, she gradually grew closer to him and Jr. As their bond formed, Bowser willingly allowed her to use one of the mystical items to bring Eggman back.

After a lot of tension and experience sharing from Sage to Eggman, the doctor and Koopa eventually settle their difference and now there are days in which Sage will have Eggman bring her over to visit Bowser and Co. To hang out while both sides work together to try and defeat their nemesis... or Bowser Jr and Sage were just playing pretend all along Would've made the episode 10x better but whatever.
 
Angelzewolf said:
To make myself feel better, I'm going to headcanon that while Sage was plotting against Bowser, she gradually grew closer to him and Jr. As their bond formed, Bowser willingly allowed her to use one of the mystical items to bring Eggman back.

After a lot of tension and experience sharing from Sage to Eggman, the doctor and Koopa eventually settle their difference and now there are days in which Sage will have Eggman bring her over to visit Bowser and Co. To hang out while both sides work together to try and defeat their nemesis... or Bowser Jr and Sage were just playing pretend all along Would've made the episode 10x better but whatever.
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Sage should've just betrayed and trapped Bowser's army in Cyberspace, but Death Battle conveniently side-stepped that since that would go against their agenda
 
Angelzewolf said:
To make myself feel better, I'm going to headcanon that while Sage was plotting against Bowser, she gradually grew closer to him and Jr. As their bond formed, Bowser willingly allowed her to use one of the mystical items to bring Eggman back.

After a lot of tension and experience sharing from Sage to Eggman, the doctor and Koopa eventually settle their difference and now there are days in which Sage will have Eggman bring her over to visit Bowser and Co. To hang out while both sides work together to try and defeat their nemesis... or Bowser Jr and Sage were just playing pretend all along Would've made the episode 10x better but whatever.
Click to expand...
This comment reminded me of this piece of art on Twitter and it is my personal headcanon ending to Bowser vs Eggman.

F1pmxiPaIAcjG0p
 
FaceOff81 said:
I believe that just like the games, they made the Super Emeralds were made to be made stronger than the Chaos Emeralds. Other than through implication, this is supporting through that Adventure 1 story arc that was present within the Archie Comics where Tikal's father utilized the Chaos Emeralds present in the local Chao Garden for their current ongoing war. Chaos emerged as a result and the Seven Super Emeralds were then used to vanquish Chaos and then some. When then see Tikal and Chaos both trapped inside the Black Chaos Emerald and the Seven Super Emeralds dispersed around all of Mobius. While they do lack time to be shown within the comic book, they do have some feats supporting them being above the Chaos Emeralds (even the wiki states so oddly enough but that's irrelevant). The way that the Ultra Form is typically viewed, its the form that is utilized where in such an emergency where they have no choice but to use it provided it already isn't too late to transform. While it only came up once in the comics after Issue 71, we do see that line of thinking and utilization still holds up with how it was used (mainly against Nagus). Other than the cycling of transformations present in Issue 71 and the Adventure 1 arc, we see that the transformation is more so implied to be above Super Sonic other than through being shown more time on screen. I will agree that Issue 71 and the whole concept of the Super Emeralds is a head-ache to deal with so I don't blame you for feeling frustrated, but at the end of the day, I have to hard-disagree with Super Sonic > Ultra Sonic when from what the evidence and implications present to us and that's perfectly fine.


The difference here between the SSB and MUI forms and this is through Sonic using a superior power sources in his verse. In issue 71, we see that it is stated that Sonic continuously gets faster and stronger as he races around the world multiple times as a means to deflect that space-time laser away from knothole. If Super Sonic > Ultra Sonic, as Sonic would be going faster and faster, wouldn't he would stay in his Super Form as he's doing so? Instead, we see him in his Ultra Form. As I've explained with the Adventure 1 debacle, we seen that if one Super Emerald can power Sonic up to both Super and Ultra Sonic, I don't see why that cannot be the case with all seven. Even if you disagree still and have Super > Ultra (which again I still disagree with), something I will agree to is that Super Emerald Powered Super Sonic > Chaos Emerald Powered Super Sonic (would include the Post-Great Harmony Version) as well. SSJ transformations are something that is natural to Saiyans as opposed to being supplied with a power source so I wouldn't be surprised if they switched on and off different forms throughout the fight (especially when it depends on the overall strength of the Saiyans being able to sustain the forms or if they need to utilize less to defeat their opponents). Dragon Ball fights are a lot more nuanced than Sonic fights to say the least so I wouldn't immediately say the two are comparable in this case.

I'll leave my reply with these two links as follows:



The statements of Ian Flynn agreeing that Ultra Sonic > Super is something I do agree with even if it's not exactly one to one on why Ian believes it to be the case.
Take em or leave em. It's up to you, powerscaling is subjective after all but there are a lot of objectivity present within it.
Click to expand...

1. I never said that the Super Emeralds weren't stronger than the Chaos Emeralds, I just said that it's vague as to ONE Super Emerald being stronger than all Seven Chaos Emeralds. It just doesn't add up. It being POTENTIALLY stronger than the entire set of regular Chaos Emeralds just seems like headcanon, to me. The "used for emergencies" thing would have come up, like, way more often when they actually mattered. It's only come up a total of three times in the comic's entire run and in none of them does it have solid-enough evidence with Ultra Sonic being stronger than Super Sonic. These vague implications are very weak and don't add much to its non-fraudulency in terms of its power. It having more screentime in that instance doesn't make it stronger. That was around its debut comic, so of course it'd get some screentime. Super Sonic was hardly relevant then. I just don't see the vision. Just feels like an extreme reach to me.

2. A power source that he knows how to utilize rather well as if it was second nature. I don't think this is relevant in this case. It's a form that he uses. I just don't see anything that Ultra Sonic has done that Super Sonic couldn't. Just seems like a lot of wank for the form that barely has showings. Ultra Sonic is just a rather dubious form that isn't even brought up much if at all, so I don't see the value in trying to reach so far to get this form to this level of strength. It isn't shown to do anything Super Sonic is unable to, it never comes up when it should count later on, and its applications seem useless. Why would the form need environmental adaptation if Super Sonic is just invincible and could fly. Why use atomic manipulation when he could just reality warp? He could already use BFR in Super by just using reality warping and just shunt him to another zone. It just seems like a completely useless form in comparison and Super just completely outshines it, yet it keeps getting clouted up as actually stronger than it's actually shown to be.

3. I don't take Ian statements all too seriously unless it's something lore-related. His powerscaling is dog, so I'm more than likely going to knock it.
 
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I can't say the research is good when Eggman's two main wincons (Cyberspace sealing and Otherworldfication) are completely ignored via bad reasons, Eggman's tactical mind gets downplayed, and Bowser gets treated as if he has prior knowledge of Eggman. I don't care if the animation was good, this stops me from liking the episode.

Oh well, at least that's done with. Now to move on to greener pasture. Thank you Death Battle community for showing us Speed Sim is canon at least, lol.
 
Theuser789 said:
Sage should've just betrayed and trapped Bowser's army in Cyberspace, but Death Battle conveniently side-stepped that since that would go against their agenda
Click to expand...

They mentioned in a black box Kamek, Bowser Jr, and King Boo could counter BFR. I don't know if they can, but it'd be more like they gave misinformation than outright dismissing it. But again, I think everyone here already knew they'd have Bowser win. It was just a matter of what logic they'd use. (They also mentioned how she'd lack data on them which... yeah... but the battle would literally be feeding her said data?)

The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
This comment reminded me of this piece of art on Twitter and it is my personal headcanon ending to Bowser vs Eggman.

F1pmxiPaIAcjG0p
Click to expand...

That's where me gots my inspiration. Death Battle sold by not making this the ending, smh.
 
Angelzewolf said:
They mentioned in a black box Kamek, Bowser Jr, and King Boo could counter BFR. I don't know if they can, but it'd be more like they gave misinformation than outright dismissing it. But again, I think everyone here already knew they'd have Bowser win. It was just a matter of what logic they'd use. (They also mentioned how she'd lack data on them which... yeah... but the battle would literally be feeding her said data?)
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It's sealing, not just BFR. It digitalizes you and breaking the seal releases Cyber Corruption. But again, I knew Death Battle wouldn't focus on it because Bowser had to win.
 
Angelzewolf said:

Infinite was, expectedly, treated like a joke. But like... Sage and Metal didn't really DO anything, at least nothing noteworthy and upon closer inspection, it's weird how all of Bowser's top dogs survived. The animation makes it seem like Bowser's army was barely dented while everything of Eggman's was decimated minus a few here and there. Basically, the animation could've sold it being closer much better as, how it stands, it made it seem like Eggman had no chance of winning.
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I disagree that the animation failed to portray the battle as close.
  • After Metal Sonic removed King Boo's Dark Moon crown, King Boo vanished for the rest of the battle. King Boo was the one who defeated Infinite, so it was an even trade-off.
  • Super Neo Metal Sonic knocked Kamek out of the battle in one hit, and Kamek didn't appear again until team Bowser already won, so Kamek surviving could've just been for the sake of making Bowser's win a fully happy ending for him rather than to imply that his side wouldn't be dented.
  • The Death Egg's full power blast overpowered Fury Bowser empowered by a Grand Star, which is pretty wild considering how Bowser has never canonically used those two advantages simultaneously.
 
Theuser789 said:
They not making a single Bowser troop die is also really lame.
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No, a lot died. Bowser just minimized his losses by literally tanking as many hits as he could to save them compared to Eggman, who didn’t care because his entire army is literally expendable as they’re merely physical forms for the true might of his forces, which are really just digital entities or easily replaced fodder at his automatic factories. (Metal Sonic’s AI, Sage, etc.) They’re infinitely replicable. Like, Eggman CANONICALLY has an entire armada of Metal Sonic’s. Despite this he only uses one Metal at a time. Cuz…reasons.
 
I think the biggest flaw in the reasoning is most of the good stuff being relegated to black boxes. It makes the flow messier, and makes it feel like they missed a lot more than they should've. I'm glad they got more right, but it just feels underseasoned.
 
ShrekAnakin said:
I think the biggest flaw in the reasoning is most of the good stuff being relegated to black boxes. It makes the flow messier, and makes it feel like they missed a lot more than they should've. I'm glad they got more right, but it just feels underseasoned.
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They completely fumbled in the Eggman abilities section, and acted like Bowser had prior knowledge. But I always knew an army battle was too complex for Death Battle.
 
Theuser789 said:
They completely fumbled in the Eggman abilities section, and acted like Bowser had prior knowledge. But I always knew an army battle was too complex for Death Battle.
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Yeah, IDK what the reasoning for countering BFR or whatever was but I don't really think Bowser can counter some of that stuff unless I missed something.
 
James_Plays_4_Games said:
I disagree that the animation failed to portray the battle as close.
  • After Metal Sonic removed King Boo's Dark Moon crown, King Boo vanished for the rest of the battle. King Boo was the one who defeated Infinite, so it was an even trade-off.
  • Super Neo Metal Sonic knocked Kamek out of the battle in one hit, and Kamek didn't appear again until team Bowser already won, so Kamek surviving could've just been for the sake of making Bowser's win a fully happy ending for him rather than to imply that his side wouldn't be dented.
  • The Death Egg's full power blast overpowered Fury Bowser empowered by a Grand Star, which is pretty wild considering how Bowser has never canonically used those two advantages simultaneously.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned in a previous comment, you're right about Metal. I didn't realize how much of a goat that man was. Man radiated aura. But I was including every part of the animation, including the alts. Like... Metal Sonic died, Eggman died, and Infinite died. On Bowser's side... uh.... King bob-omb died... and uh... maybe someone else in the background?

As for the alts, literally none actually displayed Eggman on the winning side as far as i'm aware. Each of them either had Eggman getting countered or Bowser winning, which while cool, again doesn't exactly help my perception of the battle. Like the only time I genuinely felt Bowser was in the backfoot was against MVP Metal, but maybe that's because I already knew Bowser would win so the tension wasn't there for me.

By again, my totally accurate canon ending elevates the episode, so it doesn't ultimately matter because both sides are now allies.
 
Theuser789 said:
It's sealing, not just BFR. It digitalizes you and breaking the seal releases Cyber Corruption. But again, I knew Death Battle wouldn't focus on it because Bowser had to win.
Click to expand...

Ah. Fair enough then, yeah. But, again, I feel like we all knew Bowser would win the match and also expected a bit of downplay for Eggy. I have noticed that, unlike Sonic vs Mario, most people aren't exactly rubbing in the victory which is nice.
 
Theuser789 said:
Most Death Battle fans are Mario fans, so it makes sense they would please them. There's one post on Reddit legitmaly talking about how Bowser NEEDS to win because it's important to him. At this point pleasing Sonic fans would unironically do bad for business.
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I don't think that was their motivation. I really think they just messed up while still trying their best. I'll admit their reasoning was dogshit though. Thr black boxes somehoe made it even worse. The fight had some hype as **** moments though.
 
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