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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers
- Thread starter Maverick_Zero_X
- Start date
ShrekAnakin
Username Only- 1,163
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Popcorn... SODA!.... Pickled Garlic!
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I believe that just like the games, they made the Super Emeralds were made to be made stronger than the Chaos Emeralds. Other than through implication, this is supporting through that Adventure 1 story arc that was present within the Archie Comics where Tikal's father utilized the Chaos Emeralds present in the local Chao Garden for their current ongoing war. Chaos emerged as a result and the Seven Super Emeralds were then used to vanquish Chaos and then some. When then see Tikal and Chaos both trapped inside the Black Chaos Emerald and the Seven Super Emeralds dispersed around all of Mobius. While they do lack time to be shown within the comic book, they do have some feats supporting them being above the Chaos Emeralds (even the wiki states so oddly enough but that's irrelevant). The way that the Ultra Form is typically viewed, its the form that is utilized where in such an emergency where they have no choice but to use it provided it already isn't too late to transform. While it only came up once in the comics after Issue 71, we do see that line of thinking and utilization still holds up with how it was used (mainly against Nagus). Other than the cycling of transformations present in Issue 71 and the Adventure 1 arc, we see that the transformation is more so implied to be above Super Sonic other than through being shown more time on screen. I will agree that Issue 71 and the whole concept of the Super Emeralds is a head-ache to deal with so I don't blame you for feeling frustrated, but at the end of the day, I have to hard-disagree with Super Sonic > Ultra Sonic when from what the evidence and implications present to us and that's perfectly fine.
The difference here between the SSB and MUI forms and this is through Sonic using a superior power sources in his verse. In issue 71, we see that it is stated that Sonic continuously gets faster and stronger as he races around the world multiple times as a means to deflect that space-time laser away from knothole. If Super Sonic > Ultra Sonic, as Sonic would be going faster and faster, wouldn't he would stay in his Super Form as he's doing so? Instead, we see him in his Ultra Form. As I've explained with the Adventure 1 debacle, we seen that if one Super Emerald can power Sonic up to both Super and Ultra Sonic, I don't see why that cannot be the case with all seven. Even if you disagree still and have Super > Ultra (which again I still disagree with), something I will agree to is that Super Emerald Powered Super Sonic > Chaos Emerald Powered Super Sonic (would include the Post-Great Harmony Version) as well. SSJ transformations are something that is natural to Saiyans as opposed to being supplied with a power source so I wouldn't be surprised if they switched on and off different forms throughout the fight (especially when it depends on the overall strength of the Saiyans being able to sustain the forms or if they need to utilize less to defeat their opponents). Dragon Ball fights are a lot more nuanced than Sonic fights to say the least so I wouldn't immediately say the two are comparable in this case.
I'll leave my reply with these two links as follows:
The statements of Ian Flynn agreeing that Ultra Sonic > Super is something I do agree with even if it's not exactly one to one on why Ian believes it to be the case.
Take em or leave em. It's up to you, powerscaling is subjective after all but there are a lot of objectivity present within it.
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I'm eating that last one if Eggman loses.
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I will agree that Ian Flynn isn't a powerscaler but I do take a lot of the statements cosmology wise seriously. Stuff that I do not take seriously is stuff like him agreeing that Ultra Sonic > Super Sonic while ALSO SAYING that Dark Enerjak > Ultra Sonic because it would make things more narratively interesting when it has shown that even at the tail end of the Pre-Genesis Wave, Super Sonic > Dark Enerjak through nuking the entire multiverse erasing Enerjak and the Chaos Force as a whole (along with all of the other higher dimensions and uncountable infinite timelines present where Dark Enerjak is apart of it). With my reasoning stated earlier, Ultra Sonic > Super Sonic so Ultra Sonic should be able to beat Dark Enerjak in an easier manner. The rest of your reply I do agree with as a whole.
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After reading your replies here, I can see why you feel the way you do here even if I disagree. I will like to mention a few things though. His Plot Manipulation is 100% valid as shown starting in Issue 14 as he used it as a means to defeat Eggman. Other than that, we see him interacting with Humans from the real world (Sonic-Live) and Off-Panel as a whole where we see more Plot Manipulation. When using it narratively when it mattered, we see that through Off-Panel that they follow scripts on how stories are meant to be played out but sometimes, they go in and change details in certain stories to make it flow better while still winning in the end (Off-Panel is weird to say the least). I know others will disagree and chalk-it up to an Omake, but I've failed to see consistent evidence as such being the case. I've seen it as more so being completely separated from the main verse as a whole. That I will say is an argument for another time. As such, I do believe there is merit to Archie Sonic using it as a means of combat through Issue 14, Sonic-Live, and Off-Panel. If people disagree, then so be it and that's fine since I can disagree with them as well. Regarding Archie Sonic being outerversial, there are multiple plays at hand that support such a case with Off-Panel being R > F (Yeah I said it fight me) and stuff in the cosmology that more or less so point to it being the case, but those threads are currently in the works if I remember correctly. I never heard of this microverse ad-infinitum thing whatsoever so I'll agree with you there. At least we both can agree that Archie Sonic as a whole doesn't make sense at all.
I won't disagree here since there have been some cases where I was scratching my head, but there are some merit to a lot of those to do argue for it even if it isn't the best argued.
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It's not an assumption when we literally see it right there. Besides, I believe we know Super Emerald (let alone Chaos Emerald) > Power Rings. The logic should apply here as well when it comes to powerscaling the strength of Ultra Sonic being powered by Power Rings Vs being powered by a Super Emerald.
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He did in a previous BumbleKast.
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except that it does not work like that, when it is said that super emeralds are>than a Chaos emerald, in ARCHIE?
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Except it does work like that. I've already wrote a giant response to this explaining the Adventure 1 story arc supporting why that is the case above. Other than that, it's heavily implied and shown through their usage in Issue 71 and in the Adventure 1 arc.
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except that in Archie the story is different, and when they were fused, all the emeralds, into chaos emeralds, they STILL TURNED SONIC INTO SUPER
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Yes the story is different in Archie (as explained why previously). I understand that Sonic still turned Super in that story arc with the Super Emeralds. HOWEVER, in Issue 71, he turned Super with just ONE Super Emerald and THEN into Ultra Sonic. If one Super Emerald can turn him into Super let alone Ultra Sonic, the same applies here. Regarding the great harmony, yes, the Chaos Emeralds were all fused into 7 separate Chaos Emeralds, but they are still separate from the Seven Super Emeralds and weaker as shown through what happened in Issue 71 and the Adventure 1 arc.
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that excuse does not work, because again, that is irrelevant if with all emeralds he still turned into super, then that means that when he turned into Super in that issue, he just returned back to Ultra because that was better at the moment and not because a super emerald was more powerful
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Him turning Super does not make anything regarding Ultra Sonic irrelevant. Thank you for admitting that Ultra Sonic was the better form to use in that moment. We see that allowed Archie Sonic to utilize an even greater extent of power that Super Sonic could not reach. Through him transforming from Super to Ultra Sonic, we see that allowed him to go faster and faster gaining more strength as well.
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I just finished watching the Bowser VS Eggman Death Battle livestream.
Regardless of who won, I hope we can all agree the episode was very enjoyable because the animation was really cool and they finally used higher end interpretation for the characters in the analysis. The "higher end" wasn't the same as on the VS Battles Wiki, but still, it's a massive improvement given how they previous didn't even believe Sonic could sometimes achieve light speed independently. Of course, they did the same for Bowser, which is how the two could compare, and ultimately helped Bowser get the win.
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Pretty cool fight. Of course, I disagree with the result, but I do think it’s worth noting we’ll probably have to do several re-watches, because it seems the bulk of the arguments are in black boxes. For example, while they say verbally Eggman doesn’t have much of a counter against item stealing, one of Blackboxes do mention the Forcejewels can protect from it, but in comparison to Kamek are finite, has less limits, and could technically be disabled by a different spell (he knows one that disables the ability to use items on top of stealing).
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Did they mention Eggman's own item stealing?
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More stupid Death Battle powerscaling nonsens and research that ruins powerscaling discourse
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Not verbally. I’ll have to check black boxes.
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D'oh. Well, this just means my standards for Death Battle are lower than yours, and I don't get annoyed by the discourse consequences as much. I understand how you feel though, since I used to debate a lot more years ago.
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One thing I really liked were the Animated “Alternate Endings,” in the Post-Analysis.
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Most Death Battle fans are Mario fans, so it makes sense they would please them. There's one post on Reddit legitmaly talking about how Bowser NEEDS to win because it's important to him. At this point pleasing Sonic fans would unironically do bad for business.
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Well is not like they almost died two times
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And even more, they give them Supreme, and THEY DIDN'T USE IT
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Well, the results were as expected. Haven't watched it yet to judge the episode itself, but I heard they gave respect to both characters which is more important. Admittedly, I do and always have, felt like modern Death Battle had a slight bias for Mario characters over Sonic. But I also have a slight bias over Sonic than Mario, so... like... it doesn't really matter, lol. Feel bad for Sage though.
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Yeah, people have biases, it is imposible to not be biased, but Come On
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Genuinely pisses me off about Death Battle. Really shows their biases against Sonic.
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Death Battle doesn't like game Sonic that much, we know. It seems like Eggman got respect in stats but only that. Abilities was completely ass.
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They really did a bad job with Archie research as well.
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Archie can actually win important match-ups, and the community doesn't think that simply accepting blatant scaling is already "so much respect".
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That community and Death Battle as a whole completely ruins all discussion of powerscaling even though the research provided is so bare bones and often outright bias that it makes engaging in powerscaling and proper dimensional tiering an uphill battle due to how many people that have no idea about powerscaling and how big Death Battle is in general. It seriously pisses me off to no end.
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Speaking only about the animation, as I am at work and can't watch the full video... it was good. I enjoyed it and the music. I'm not a big fan of the ending showing the different battles because... it's literally just Bowser winning three other times, lol. Be a lot cooler if they committed to how close it was by showing alt endings depicting both sides winning.
Infinite was, expectedly, treated like a joke. But like... Sage and Metal didn't really DO anything, at least nothing noteworthy and upon closer inspection, it's weird how all of Bowser's top dogs survived. The animation makes it seem like Bowser's army was barely dented while everything of Eggman's was decimated minus a few here and there. Basically, the animation could've sold it being closer much better as, how it stands, it made it seem like Eggman had no chance of winning.
Edit: Scratch that, had more than one alt scenario with either implications Bowser won or Bowser outright winning... come on. Don't call it close if not a single one will show Eggman with an upperhand.
I kinda do agree that, the bits of research I saw in the episode, seemed to give Bowser a bit more leeway. Phantom Ruby was just plain incorrect, and they could've done a better job explaining the comparison between the Chaos Emeralds and Stars. But again, I haven't watched the full episode to comment on their research and reasoning.
Infinite was, expectedly, treated like a joke. But like... Sage and Metal didn't really DO anything, at least nothing noteworthy and upon closer inspection, it's weird how all of Bowser's top dogs survived. The animation makes it seem like Bowser's army was barely dented while everything of Eggman's was decimated minus a few here and there. Basically, the animation could've sold it being closer much better as, how it stands, it made it seem like Eggman had no chance of winning.
Edit: Scratch that, had more than one alt scenario with either implications Bowser won or Bowser outright winning... come on. Don't call it close if not a single one will show Eggman with an upperhand.
I kinda do agree that, the bits of research I saw in the episode, seemed to give Bowser a bit more leeway. Phantom Ruby was just plain incorrect, and they could've done a better job explaining the comparison between the Chaos Emeralds and Stars. But again, I haven't watched the full episode to comment on their research and reasoning.
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The take aways from their research are as follows.
1: Dreamy bowser can use existence erasure to beat metal sonic or the time eater (From what I saw TEs existence erasure wasn't mentioned)
2: The wonder flower is far better than the phantom ruby.
3: Dimensional travel counters the cyber cages.
4: Bowser and Eggman at their peaks are comparable in speed and power but Bowser may be faster because they had Solaris at 77 quadrillion c while Mario was over 200 quadrillion c.
1: Dreamy bowser can use existence erasure to beat metal sonic or the time eater (From what I saw TEs existence erasure wasn't mentioned)
2: The wonder flower is far better than the phantom ruby.
3: Dimensional travel counters the cyber cages.
4: Bowser and Eggman at their peaks are comparable in speed and power but Bowser may be faster because they had Solaris at 77 quadrillion c while Mario was over 200 quadrillion c.
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I knew that fight was gonna be their Magnum Opus, questionable stuff aside. But hey,at least they admitted potential 2-A & immeasurable speed.
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Wild how the state of things is so bad for Sonic that simply just scaling characters to the people they beat already makes people happy.
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The Phantom Ruby downplay was absolutely absurd though, they made it sound like the perception manip is useless when in reality it can match & deceive reality warping better than anything Bowser has.
MysticMania
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Yeah, I don't like how they handled the Phantom Ruby. How was Classic in Forces if it was just a fake? So on so on.
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