Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[Omegabronic]

Even if the Super forms are a bigger speed amp than a fully charged spin dash, (which sounds obvious, but remains an unproven premise with a lot of evidence against it) it doesn't make that much of a difference since the spin dash is being downgraded to a 4× multiplier. A Super form's peak power growing alongside its base form is a no-brainer, but it can only be evidence of circular scaling if you have actual solid proof that Super forms are in fact OVERWHELMINGLY faster than base forms, which has more counter-evidence than actual evidence as far as I can see. Even then, all your argument would do is assert that Sonic's speed scaling to the Titans is an outlier. It wouldn't debunk basically everything else.

it is being downgraded to a overly utter blitz above 4x, to the point that it statues 4x, so in admitting that a Super Forms raises the speed in a greater scale to that you are admitting the circular scaling it would cause

 

[Peptocoptr27]

it is being downgraded to a overly utter blitz above 4x, to the point that it statues 4x, so in admitting that a Super Forms raises the speed in a greater scale to that you are admitting the circular scaling it would cause

You still haven't proven the premise. Why should a Super form naturally be faster than a base character's speed amp when base characters have so much evidence of being relative in speed to Super forms and there is no actual contradiction to this?

 

[Omegabronic]

You still haven't proven the premise. Why should a Super form naturally be faster than a base character's speed amp when base characters have so much evidence of being relative in speed to Super forms and there is no actual contradiction to this?

so according to you the Chaos Emeralds do not boost speed whatsoever?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

so according to you the Chaos Emeralds do not boost speed whatsoever?

Like I said, they don't boost speed to the point that Super forms completely blitz base characters. Unless someone can find evidence that suggests otherwise.

 

[Omegabronic]

Like I said, they don't boost speed to the point that Super forms completely blitz base characters. Unless someone can find evidence that suggests otherwise.

Super Neo Metal casually blitzing Sonic and Knuckles at the same time, and about the list you showed earlier

-Super Mecha Sonic

massive outlier, unless you seriously want to argue that Classic Knuckles is immeasurable in speed, good luck backing that up

-Ultimate Gemerl (through Eggman's Egg mobile, who's feat of catching up to Gemerl in Nonagression zone is already accepted)

what is accepted is it reaching to where the battle took place, the whole gimick of the fight is Sonic amping Eggman's Eggmobile to fire at Gemerl, so that already disqualifies as a base form level feat

-Perfect Chaos

you mean when Modern Sonic has consistent feats of growing to the level of the super forms of his past? yeah, what of it? this doesn't prove that Super Forms don't boost speed too much, it proves that Sonic grew that much

-The Phantom King (through scaling to the Death Egg Robot in Forces, a vastly superior Eggman creation which runs on the same power source and, unlike the Heavy King, explicitely overclocked it)

Classic needed the emeralds to fight Phantom King, and the Death Egg Robot in forces......go to the point above really

-Super Neo Metal Sonic (Shadow power nulled him before he could react)

by a surprise attack, where moments prior he utterly blitzed and dominated both Sonic and Knuckles at the same time, at best it is an outlier for Shadow

-Time Eater

what about the Time Eater?

-Wyvern, Knight, and by extension, the other Titans.

Giganto literally blitzed Sonic to grab him in their first encounter, where Sonic couldn't do anything to not get caught, so no

-Tethered Supreme (The downscaling here is MUCH more severe than in the other cases, but Sage did manage to block Supreme's projectiles before they had the chance to harm Eggman, and both her and Sonic's friends moved in tandem with said projectiles. This point is the weakest, but still worth mentionning)

you mean when none of the said projectiles where hitting them in the first place? yeah ok

Not to mention base Sonic has at least 2 immeasurable speed feats of his own, and 2 debatable infinite speed feats, not counting his numerous feats of dimensionnal travel and movement in timeless voids that would be infinite or immeasurable by most standards that aren't VSBW's.

Super Forms grow alongside the user, him having greater feats wouldn't make the gap between them smaller, it would remain the same

 

[Peptocoptr27]

"Super Neo Metal casually blitzing Sonic and Knuckles at the same time, and about the list you showed earlier"

IDW is secondary canon. Just like Prime. Both of the pieces of evidence you brought up so far are crushed by the higher consistancy and superior main canon status of the games.

"massive outlier, unless you seriously want to argue that Classic Knuckles is immeasurable in speed, good luck backing that up"

Sonic's first blatant immeasurable speed feat was in CD. His first immeasurable WOG statement was in a Sonic 2 guide. Both of which take place before Sonic 3. I'm much more comfortable with saying only modern (post Generations) Sonic is immeasurable, but the argument is there if you want to say he always was. We wouldn't be the first to say so.

"what is accepted is it reaching to where the battle took place, the whole gimick of the fight is Sonic amping Eggman's Eggmobile to fire at Gemerl, so that already disqualifies as a base form level feat"

Eggman wasn't chasing after Gemerl? What was Gemerl's plan actually? What was he heading into deep space for? I don't even know, so you might be right.

"you mean when Modern Sonic has consistent feats of growing to the level of the super forms of his past? yeah, what of it? this doesn't prove that Super Forms don't boost speed too much, it proves that Sonic grew that much"

That means modern Sonic has immeasurable speed then. I know we currently call it an outlier, but it should not be anymore.

"Classic needed the emeralds to fight Phantom King, and the Death Egg Robot in forces......go to the point above really"

Exactly. Seems you agree with immeasurable modern Sonic at least.

"by a surprise attack, where moments prior he utterly blitzed and dominated both Sonic and Knuckles at the same time, at best it is an outlier for Shadow"

Super Neo Metal was faster than Sonic and Knuckles, but not so much faster that he could not be caught by surprise by one of them. That was the point.

"what about the Time Eater?"

Base Sonic was dodging attacks from the Time Eater just fine before getting caught by surprise and overwhelemed in POWER to the point that he had to go Super.

"Giganto literally blitzed Sonic to grab him in their first encounter, where Sonic couldn't do anything to not get caught, so no"

Just because he got grabbed once doesn't mean he got blitzed. That's not what blitzing means. He got caught in mid air too. His speed and mobillity is obviously way more limited in that context. You provided one weak counter-example against two strong examples for my stance. Wyvern was even bloodlusted.

"you mean when none of the said projectiles where hitting them in the first place? yeah ok"

Yeah. Weakest point, like I said.

"Super Forms grow alongside the user, him having greater feats wouldn't make the gap between them smaller, it would remain the same"

Him having his own immeasurable speed feats would not make the gap qualitatively higher anymore, no. That would imply Super forms have 2nd degree immeasurable speed with no evidence.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Super Neo Metal casually blitzing Sonic and Knuckles at the same time, and about the list you showed earlier

massive outlier, unless you seriously want to argue that Classic Knuckles is immeasurable in speed, good luck backing that up


what is accepted is it reaching to where the battle took place, the whole gimick of the fight is Sonic amping Eggman's Eggmobile to fire at Gemerl, so that already disqualifies as a base form level feat


you mean when Modern Sonic has consistent feats of growing to the level of the super forms of his past? yeah, what of it? this doesn't prove that Super Forms don't boost speed too much, it proves that Sonic grew that much


Classic needed the emeralds to fight Phantom King, and the Death Egg Robot in forces......go to the point above really


by a surprise attack, where moments prior he utterly blitzed and dominated both Sonic and Knuckles at the same time, at best it is an outlier for Shadow


what about the Time Eater?


Giganto literally blitzed Sonic to grab him in their first encounter, where Sonic couldn't do anything to not get caught, so no


you mean when none of the said projectiles where hitting them in the first place? yeah ok


Super Forms grow alongside the user, him having greater feats wouldn't make the gap between them smaller, it would remain the same

Sorry my reply above it so hard to read. Browsing this on my phone will do that

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sorry my reply above it so hard to read. Browsing this on my phone will do that

Hit enter below and above your response paragraphs to sepreare the quote, then highlight your section and select the " icon. It'll take a couple minutes but it'll fix everything.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Hit enter below and above your response paragraphs to sepreare the quote, then highlight your section and select the " icon. It'll take a couple minutes but it'll fix everything.

Doesn't work like that for me. I have to write down something like "

" and end it with "[/QUOTE\]" for every little paragraph. I'll try to have the patience for it if there's a next time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Doesn't work like that for me. I have to write down something like "

Do you want me to fix it?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Do you want me to fix it?

You can do that? And you don't even mind? Sure

 

[Qawsedf234]

You can do that?

The power of an administrator is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

 

[Omegabronic]

IDW is secondary canon. Just like Prime. Both of the pieces of evidence you brought up so far are crushed by the higher consistancy and superior main canon status of the games.

i only brought up 1 so far, what do you mean "both"? and IDW is secondary canon yet you use as a main point? if so you must also use the showing i talked as a counter to that

Sonic's first blatant immeasurable speed feat was in CD.

if you mean the time travel, 1 he needs the post signs to do that and 2 that is made by him running at light speed

His first immeasurable WOG statement was in a Sonic 2 guide.

show me?

Both of which take place before Sonic 3. I'm much more comfortable with saying only modern (post Generations) Sonic is immeasurable, but the argument is there if you want to say he always was. We wouldn't be the first to say so.

if it would be an outlier then........yeah it wouldn't be valid

Eggman wasn't chasing after Gemerl?

after Gemerl went into space, Super Sonic also did, and then after the 2 left the screen Eggman followed, he was just going to the place the fight would be, he was actually blitzed by Gemerl moments prior when he slammed Sonic into him

What was Gemerl's plan actually? What was he heading into deep space for? I don't even know, so you might be right.

no idea what he wanted, don't think that it was ever said

That means modern Sonic has immeasurable speed then. I know we currently call it an outlier, but it should not be anymore.

i mean.....i would be more comfortable with a "possible" rating, but yeah

Exactly. Seems you agree with immeasurable modern Sonic at least.

yeah, more comfortable with a possible as i said tho

Super Neo Metal was faster than Sonic and Knuckles, but not so much faster that he could not be caught by surprise by one of them. That was the point.

he was, they couldn't even react to him at all while he taunted them about given how casual he was

Base Sonic was dodging attacks from the Time Eater just fine before getting caught by surprise and overwhelemed in POWER to the point that he had to go Super.

....with him holding back to tease Sonic that is

Just because he got grabbed once doesn't mean he got blitzed. That's not what blitzing means. He got caught in mid air too. His speed and mobillity is obviously way more limited in that context. You provided one weak counter-example against two strong examples for my stance. Wyvern was even bloodlusted.

Stomp to go down quickly and dodge, enough said

Yeah. Weakest point, like I said.

yeah

Him having his own immeasurable speed feats would not make the gap qualitatively higher anymore, no. That would imply Super forms have 2nd degree immeasurable speed with no evidence.

it would, it would make them just that much faster than baseline, there is no "2nd degree immeasurable speed" without multiple temporal dimensions

 

[RedReaper616]

Completely unrelated to the current Topic, but it occurs to me that Shadow nor Eggman got the slam dunk minor additions from Prime S1. Being the power amplifier/modulator (Eggman) and prophetic visions (Shadow).

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Small Building level Sonic

 

[Alexander]

Small Building level Sonic

IDW countradictory

 

[Theuser789]

Small Building level Sonic

Starline is just that stupid. Don't worry.

 

[Lenyo456]

Small Building level Sonic

or we can assume that this was a low 2-C explosion, with a range of a few meters (this is a joke, in case you didn't notice)

 

[Alexander]

or we can assume that this was a low 2-C explosion, with a range of a few meters (this is a joke, in case you didn't notice)

it will not be the only time when something that has not universal range can probably damage a universal being

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I was reading @ShakeResounding's blog about cyberspace when I got to this part:

"As noted by the description for Type 2, the manipulation of information has many potential levels. Within the JP dialogue during the introductory cutscene, Tails refers to the forcefield around the Starfall Islands as law-defying, which manifest "logical disparities" that go to the bottom of causality"

Is there any video of the japanese cutscene?

 

[ShakeResounding]

Windii has them uploaded directly on her YT channel iirc, just search "Sonic Frontiers JP cutscenes"

 

[Tipper17]

 

[ShakeResounding]

Absolutely raw I can't even lie

 

[Lenyo456]

Anyway, now that the Archie Pre-Gen and Game versers have received upgrades, shouldn't we revisit some losses? For example Archie Sonic vs Kratos, where both were low 1-C, but that's doesn't work anymore since you-know-why. (this one is actually inconclusive but you get my point)

 

[ShakeResounding]

Anyway, now that the Archie Pre-Gen and Game versers have received upgrades, shouldn't we revisit some losses?

Yup, most definitely

 

[Remus1998]

Would the Chaos Force and those one with it possess Enhanced Type 1 AE due to encompassing everything including dreams/4 Dimensional Space/Maginaryworld?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I'm seeing in youtube alot of comments saying prime happens after advance 3, Is this true?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm seeing in youtube alot of comments saying prime happens after advance 3, Is this true?

In one of the Season 3 episodes you see Sonic and Tails (with the wrong sprites) fight Gemerl and Eggman. Which is why Ian said that it happens sometime after Advanced 3 but he doesn't know the exact time after Advanced 3.

As an estimate though it would be before the Forces era based on how Sonic acts.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

In one of the Season 3 episodes you see Sonic and Tails (with the wrong sprites) fight Gemerl and Eggman. Which is why Ian said that it happens sometime after Advanced 3 but he doesn't know the exact time after Advanced 3.

As an estimate though it would be before the Forces era based on how Sonic acts.

So does this mean 1st key sonic has the chance of becoming 2-C?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So does this mean 1st key sonic has the chance of becoming 2-C?

Why would Sonic be 2-C?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Because of this;

A possible Sonic Upgrade CRT (No promises)

Ok, Here we go, I don't know if this will upgrade Sonic or not but i will try my best here, So let's start; Sonic Prime is considered Modern Sonic correct? First off; AP - Low multiverse; Sonic destroying his universe by breaking the Paradox Prism causes the destruction of his universe and...

vsbattles.com

 

[Qawsedf234]

Because of this;

Hmm

 

[ShakeResounding]

Sonic going farther into Tier 2

It's Segover, we can't Ninten-do this

 

[RedReaper616]

I personally think “it’s sometime after Advanced 3,” is a non-hint. Of course it’s after Advanced 3. Orbot and Cubot, who debuted in Colors, were in the first few episodes. Gemerl appearing in Prime didn’t solve anything. It just shows us what we already knew.

It’d be like showing the ToP of DBS in the first few episodes of Daima and then when asked it’s time placement (between Broly, Granolah, Superhero, and Moro) saying “It’s sometime after Buu Saga,” as if it’s in some form actually helpful information.

 

[Alexander]

I personally think “it’s sometime after Advanced 3,” is a non-hint. Of course it’s after Advanced 3. Orbot and Cubot, who debuted in Colors, were in the first few episodes. Gemerl appearing in Prime didn’t solve anything. It just shows us what we already knew.

It’d be like showing the ToP of DBS in the first few episodes of Daima and then when asked it’s time placement (between Broly, Granolah, Superhero, and Moro) saying “It’s sometime after Buu Saga,” as if it’s in some form actually helpful information.

i mean i guess anyone could have understand that

 

[MysticMania]

You still haven't proven the premise. Why should a Super form naturally be faster than a base character's speed amp when base characters have so much evidence of being relative in speed to Super forms and there is no actual contradiction to this?

Same thing for AP and Durability. Multiple games (especially 3&K) do seem to depict Super as just being flight+invincibility, and no other changes to the user. I don't agree to it, at all, but speed has as much support as the other two stats, do.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

As much as I dislike IDW, Prime and Games all being treated as "canon" to each other here's the current list of all the high end feats I can think off, from the top of my head and into the Sonicverse:

Games:
*The Phantom Ruby can create dimensions and worlds, with the Null Void being described as endless and Egg Reverie Zone having it's own space-time albeit warped.

*Illlumina dreamed Maginaryworld into existence to store and manifest the dreams of countless lifeforms from different dimensions and created the Precioustone which preserves her own dream.

*Void was going to erase the entirely of Maginaryworld including countless dream world's that are large enough to fit Constellations, Black Holes and Galaxies in them (so world in this context likely means universe) plus the 4th dimension (self explanatory).

*Solaris was gonna consume the entire cosmology, is described as a "super-dimensional" being that eats the dimensions for lunch and can consume all existing timeless, annihilating the meaning of time itself.

*The Sol and Chaos Emeralds can cause two universe's to merge as a side effect of being in the same universe as each other (if the balance of power is altered by an outside force).

*Both Eggmen were confident the Egg Salamander would survive the merging and eventual destruction of two universes.

*The Power of the Stars sustains parallel worlds as well as Sonic and Blaze's universes also the Egg Wizard was gonna replicate the merger feat.

*Upon absorbing all 7 World Rings Erazor Jinn erased the entirely of the Arabian Nights reality and was already gradually destroying and absorbing the Arabian Nights prior to this feat.

*Sonic restored the Arabian Nights with a hand gesture after defeating Erazor Jinn and taking back the World Rings.

*The Dark Queen was gonna merge the realm of Camelot with the forces of the Underworld (including it's space-time) to create a perpetual undying world.

*The Time Eater obliterated the space-time of Sonic's universe/timeline plus was even affecting other dimensions/timelines: Blaze's universe, Crisis City (06 deleted timeline), Stardust Speedway (bad future), etc.

*The Ancients created Cyberspace an infinite sized realm/digital dimension that stores their dreams, memories, information, essence, etc.

*The Reverie is a dream world that is capable of turning dreams into reality for the pure of heart and is likely of the same nature as the dream worlds of Maginaryworld.

IDW:

*Eggman casually creates an ad infinitum dimension which is 4D (due to containing a tesseract) as a testing ground for his mechs and Badniks.

Prime:

*The Paradox Prism shatters Sonic's universe into multiple shatter-spaces which each being consider their own dimension with distinct histories from each other.

*Sonic survives being at ground zero of the Shatterverse which split his friends and Eggman into different variations of themselves as well as breaking the world.

*Nine was gonna turn the Grim (another space) into a whole new dimension ripe with life using Prism energy and was gradually destroying shatter-spaces as a consequence.

So in total we've got 13 universal (or higher) feats/statements and adding extended media that number increases to 17 and that's not including scaling, hax feats, speed feats, etc nor special stage or NiGHTs shenanigans.

Remember when Eggman nuking a star cluster was consider the highest end of the verse? (That wasn't considered an outlier).

 

[Blunt_Claw]

As much as I dislike IDW, Prime and Games all being treated as "canon" to each other

I actually don't mind IDW being canon to the games since it's biggest inconsistencies are just characterization diffrences that don't surpass what the games themselves sometimes do, also it's a direct sequel to a mainline game so there is a clear connection.

Meanwhile Prime has no good reason being game canon. Sonic was acting like he had never seen a metal sonic before for God's sake, that's bloody inexcusable.

Not that any of this matters for scaling, if SEGA says something is canon then our profiles have to follow suit.

 

[Brogeefrong]

has anyone ever tried to give archie sonic AE type 2 for being the embodiment of chaos

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Does every minigame in Sonic Shuffle happens in a different dream?