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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

ThatBusyDude said:
He’s lore manager to be fair. Do we just ignore what a word of god says?
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It's more nuanced than "he's always right/wrong"

His a very popular Sonic writer and a members of the lore team. He of course isn't always calling the shots of everything and for final decision it needs to be discussed by the team and approved by the higher-ups. Of course we shouldn't pick everything he says as absolute truth because it just isn't, he in fact has got back on his word because stuff just changed. It's always changing.


So as a general summary, he isn't Word of God for the series as a whole. On his personal views he's no different from a fan, if he gets his chance to talk and discuss with other members, they might reach a conclusion thst is official, but might take time to be used for something and by that time they might even have changed their ideas.

So, personal views of things he didn't discuss with the lore team = headcanon he might or not suggest to he higher ups

Stuff discussed by the lore team = official setting material insight, although is in constant flux and might change daily

Of course, what Ian says isn't useless and I love the insights he gives about the production, discussions and what he pitches for the series. But, it's not this absolute Word of God for everything Sonic related and Ian himself has said time and time again he isn't and they shouldn't take anything he says as absolute truth more than explanations from the background development and personal ideas he might show to Sonic Team in the future.
 
Executor_N0 said:
It's more nuanced than "he's always right/wrong"

His a very popular Sonic writer and a members of the lore team. He of course isn't always calling the shots of everything and for final decision it needs to be discussed by the team and approved by the higher-ups. Of course we shouldn't pick everything he says as absolute truth because it just isn't, he in fact has got back on his word because stuff just changed. It's always changing.


So as a general summary, he isn't Word of God for the series as a whole. On his personal views he's no different from a fan, if he gets his chance to talk and discuss with other members, they might reach a conclusion thst is official, but might take time to be used for something and by that time they might even have changed their ideas.

So, personal views of things he didn't discuss with the lore team = headcanon he might or not suggest to he higher ups

Stuff discussed by the lore team = official setting material insight, although is in constant flux and might change daily

Of course, what Ian says isn't useless and I love the insights he gives about the production, discussions and what he pitches for the series. But, it's not this absolute Word of God for everything Sonic related and Ian himself has said time and time again he isn't and they shouldn't take anything he says as absolute truth more than explanations from the background development and personal ideas he might show to Sonic Team in the future.
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He says he’s not a word of god but the job description of lore manager contradicts that https://web.archive.org/web/2022111...anager-lore-at-sega-of-america-inc-3348626228

This isn’t to say that his word is absolute law, but unless his words is contradicted by material or those of an equivalent or higher authority (I.E. Sega, Sonic Team, Sonic Twitter, Eitaro Toyoda etc) I think his words do have weight.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
He says he’s not a word of god but the job description of lore manager contradicts that https://web.archive.org/web/2022111...anager-lore-at-sega-of-america-inc-3348626228

This isn’t to say that his word is absolute law, but unless his words is contradicted by material or those of an equivalent or higher authority (I.E. Sega, Sonic Team, Sonic Twitter, Eitaro Toyoda etc) I think his words do have weight.
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First, he isn't the lore manager. It's someone else. Ian is an extra member of the general lore team which includes bunch of people from the social media, Evan, Tyson, and more.

Second, just as I said the lore team works by suggestions of how to organize stuff and discussions of how it goes, it's not a "If X says Y, it's true". It's "X says Y, it gets discussed with A, B, C and if they agree they can suggest this for the higher-ups for further analysis and approval".

Third, if Ian himself doesn't put his words as WoG, he of course has freedom he wouldn't have if he considered to be and as such can be a lot more open to what he says expecting the viewers understand the situation (Although even he says he understand how some fans overestimate his words and takes caution to not go much far into trolling, unless it's a VS question of course).

So by own definition, anything he says needs to be taken with caution and he himself agrees with that. Of course, your personal view can put more respect into what he says, but managing expectations is always important for this. Ian would like to have Sonic CD as the final classic game and still wants, but that isn't the case isn't.
 
Executor_N0 said:
First, he isn't the lore manager. It's someone else. Ian is an extra member of the general lore team which includes bunch of people from the social media, Evan, Tyson, and more.

Second, just as I said the lore team works by suggestions of how to organize stuff and discussions of how it goes, it's not a "If X says Y, it's true". It's "X says Y, it gets discussed with A, B, C and if they agree they can suggest this for the higher-ups for further analysis and approval".

Third, if Ian himself doesn't put his words as WoG, he of course has freedom he wouldn't have if he considered to be and as such can be a lot more open to what he says expecting the viewers understand the situation (Although even he says he understand how some fans overestimate his words and takes caution to not go much far into trolling, unless it's a VS question of course).

So by own definition, anything he says needs to be taken with caution and he himself agrees with that. Of course, your personal view can put more respect into what he says, but managing expectations is always important for this. Ian would like to have Sonic CD as the final classic game and still wants, but that isn't the case isn't.
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Yes he is, he confirms that is one of his jobs

Not quite, while the lore team does report to the higher ups they shape the canon and report to the director of lore. That’s the description of a lore manager, they are one of the official authorities on the lore of Sonic.

It’s obvious that he just takes caution with what he says regarding canon because Sega can easily change it. Remember when he said Sonic Chronicles and a bunch of stuff wasn’t canon? And then Sega or someone like Chris Hernandez said everything was canon in a Sonic official livestream? As well as Sega saying everything is canon in the murder of sonic the hedgehog Steam description? Even something minor like Ian deeming Sonic Labyrinth as not in the mainline got changed by the Sonic twitter. It’s not that Ian doesn’t have power it’s that Sega changes things to suit the pleasures of the fans (even things that they probably didn’t consider canon like Sonic Spinball).

I didn’t say we can’t or don’t take his words with caution, I’m just saying he is an official source and his words have some kind of weight. Don’t misunderstand me.
 
little known fact: Ian Flynn (from sonic) has actually robbed All vs battle members before, leaving everyone one without their treasured copy of Skies of Arcadia. This topic is often kept out of scaling chains though, due to its questionable canonicity, but it would explain the poison people hold against him
 
Quinn out here completely butchering Live & Learn with his cringe screamo vocal delivery. He doesn't belong anywhere near a song that has Trad DNA.
 
What would the multiplier for Hyper Sonic 2(Cyber Amp+Super Emeralds) be? Could it reach tier 1?
 
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@LaserPrecision I asked Antvasima if it’s okay to use word of god statements for research and content revisions on the wiki and he had this to say

“It depends on if the so-called WOG actually has genuine full creative control over a certain verse, and what they said also did not conflict with any in-story information.”

And if those conditions are fulfilled then

“Usually, yes.”

So if Ian Flynn really is lore manager he would probably be generally usable (and definitely someone like Eitaro Toyoda).

Since Ian is questionable though, there’s some statements from Eitaro Toyoda about the concepts of subspaces existing in Sonic. Should it be okay to use that?
 
Imo call Super Sonic 2 either SS2 or Super Sonic (Full Power) since that's the vibe it sort of gives
 
ShakeResounding said:
It's referred to as "Super Sonic's hidden power" within the introductory textbox when you transform so you're not too far off
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He also says during the fight that he's going all out and doesn't banter at all, could've been like a subconscious limit that Koco man awakened if you wanna head canon him never using it prior
 
“Hidden Power”

Does that mean that every super form can feasibly access this potential, either through training or by artificial means?
 
ShakeResounding said:
It's the benchmark between Super and Hyper imo
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I mean, Ian Flynn confirmed that Hyper Sonic is (Super Sonic)^2, so there's a lot of room in the middle (such as Shadow's Inhibitor Rings, even though Archie Comics shows it like twice to be a Super Form level boost for Shadow).
 
Eseseso said:
I mean, Ian Flynn confirmed that Hyper Sonic is (Super Sonic)^2, so there's a lot of room in the middle (such as Shadow's Inhibitor Rings, even though Archie Comics shows it like twice to be a Super Form level boost for Shadow).
Click to expand...
Where did he say that?
 
Hyper Sonic 2 is possible if he were given
his full arsenal,since both amps are elements that wouldn't impede on each other.
 
I have a question here to anyone that might be able to answer it: Is Sonic's new amp in his Super form suppose a natural part of him from now on or is it temporary? Because when Sonic completes the Master King Trial it's mentioned by the Master King that the Cyber power isn't made for him and had to be synchronized with him to the best of their ability, and clarifies that if Sonic goes all out with the power then the power just ends up leaving him entirely.


If that's the case then that should probably be added in Sonic's weakness tab for his Super key, but I could be wrong so yeah.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
@LaserPrecision I asked Antvasima if it’s okay to use word of god statements for research and content revisions on the wiki and he had this to say

“It depends on if the so-called WOG actually has genuine full creative control over a certain verse, and what they said also did not conflict with any in-story information.”

And if those conditions are fulfilled then

“Usually, yes.”

So if Ian Flynn really is lore manager he would probably be generally usable (and definitely someone like Eitaro Toyoda).

Since Ian is questionable though, there’s some statements from Eitaro Toyoda about the concepts of subspaces existing in Sonic. Should it be okay to use that?
Click to expand...
Normal members can't ping other vs wiki members. Only way I get a notif is if you reply to the message directly.

Depends on the context of the statement, Toyoda's intent, and what you plan to extrapolate it to mean I suppose. Though you'd be better off asking everyone here as a whole as opposed to just me since I don't hold a lot of power here in the grand scheme of things.
 
LaserPrecision said:
Normal members can't ping other vs wiki members. Only way I get a notif is if you reply to the message directly.

Depends on the context of the statement, Toyoda's intent, and what you plan to extrapolate it to mean I suppose. Though you'd be better off asking everyone here as a whole as opposed to just me since I don't hold a lot of power here in the grand scheme of things.
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Okay.

Well the context of the statement was based off of a question that asked if the concepts of subspaces and hyperspaces/superspaces exist in Sonic’s world since subspaces were mentioned in early Sonic material.

There’s also other stuff like the concepts of mathematics being a knowledge in Sonic’s world.

It’s pretty good stuff.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Here

He states Hyper Sonic is Super Sonic going Super. How that’s not considered an uncountable level multiplier I don’t know.
Click to expand...

It is considered an uncountably Infinite increase as far as I'm aware. It's just that vs wiki doesn't allow jumping a tier via using multipliers like that. IIRC, it's the same case for Dragon Ball. Goku went from Tier 4 to Tier 2 with SSG, then became SSG level in Base, and yet they don't treat that as him jumping up to Tier 1. It's prolly just to not allow reaching Tier 1 to be so easy since in most cases, the verse in question clearly isn't depicted at such a level. I did bring that up before though, but for a different reason (Super Sonic gets stronger with Base, and Base became Tier 2 when he used to be a 3D tier, and Super Sonic is treated as Tier 2 as early as the Classic games. Meaning Super Sonic would become uncountably infinitely stronger)
 
LaserPrecision said:
It is considered an uncountably Infinite increase as far as I'm aware. It's just that vs wiki doesn't allow jumping a tier via using multipliers like that. IIRC, it's the same case for Dragon Ball. Goku went from Tier 4 to Tier 2 with SSG, then became SSG level in Base, and yet they don't treat that as him jumping up to Tier 1. It's prolly just to not allow reaching Tier 1 to be so easy since in most cases, the verse in question clearly isn't depicted at such a level. I did bring that up before though, but for a different reason (Super Sonic gets stronger with Base, and Base became Tier 2 when he used to be a 3D tier, and Super Sonic is treated as Tier 2 as early as the Classic games. Meaning Super Sonic would become uncountably infinitely stronger)
Click to expand...
Well then that’s understandable.
 
LaserPrecision said:
At the very least though, it does mean Super Sonic would scale above any finite number increase off of the baseline of a Tier. Effectively acting as infinitely above Baseline 2-A.
Click to expand...
I feel for a lot of characters that have stats equalized only to be hit with that kind of amp.

Btw did you know that Eitaro Toyoda gave his input on Infinite The Jackal’s capabilities? He said that at the time of sonic forces Infinite was Eggman’s most powerful weapon and was his masterpiece before Eggman gave up on him


Now if we go with this, Infinite should at least be on the level of Egg Salamander and Egg Wizard.

I think this is pretty reliable considering Eitaro Toyoda actually worked on the game.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
I feel for a lot of characters that have stats equalized only to be hit with that kind of amp.

Btw did you know that Eitaro Toyoda gave his input on Infinite The Jackal’s capabilities? He said that at the time of sonic forces Infinite was Eggman’s most powerful weapon and was his masterpiece before Eggman gave up on him


Now if we go with this, Infinite should at least be on the level of Egg Salamander and Egg Wizard.

I think this is pretty reliable considering Eitaro Toyoda actually worked on the game.
Click to expand...
Usually you can only equalize speed. Not AP, so he'd likely have an AP advantage in a fair amount of 2-B/2-A match-ups.

Yeah, I saw it get posted here before. I didn't comment on it since I'm not in agreement with the idea of Infinite being on the level of people like Solaris. I think the only way I could is if I was SUPER loose with scaling standards and assumed any statement to be factual regardless of what the story shows, and I usually don't like doing that. Especially in the case of Infinite who has some of the most underwhelming showings for a supposedly Egg Wizard level threat (It's even weirder when you consider powerful =/= raw strength and can instead be referring to his other aspects and the fact Sonic couldn't scratch the first Titan in Frontiers who is stated by WoG to be on the same level as past enemies, yet Sonic can beat Infinite).

If you agree with it, that's fine, but I've got my made up pretty well regarding my position on where Infinite scales. Unless he comes back and does something crazy like fight Super Sonic or something, then I'd def change my perspective.
 
I think it’s fair to scale Infinite above most other threats base Sonic has fought (ovO we get Void scaling for base Sonic after all)
 
JJSliderman said:
I think it’s fair to scale Infinite above most other threats base Sonic has fought (ovO we get Void scaling for base Sonic after all)
Click to expand...
I do agree with that sentiment. I scale Infinite above all Base Sonic threats up until that point. Or essentially anyone Sonic has actually fought. And I don't mean instances like Time Eater who stomped Sonic since someone has tried that with me before. That's just me personally anyway.
 
LaserPrecision said:
Usually you can only equalize speed. Not AP, so he'd likely have an AP advantage in a fair amount of 2-B/2-A match-ups.

Yeah, I saw it get posted here before. I didn't comment on it since I'm not in agreement with the idea of Infinite being on the level of people like Solaris. I think the only way I could is if I was SUPER loose with scaling standards and assumed any statement to be factual regardless of what the story shows, and I usually don't like doing that. Especially in the case of Infinite who has some of the most underwhelming showings for a supposedly Egg Wizard level threat (It's even weirder when you consider powerful =/= raw strength and can instead be referring to his other aspects and the fact Sonic couldn't scratch the first Titan in Frontiers who is stated by WoG to be on the same level as past enemies, yet Sonic can beat Infinite).

If you agree with it, that's fine, but I've got my made up pretty well regarding my position on where Infinite scales. Unless he comes back and does something crazy like fight Super Sonic or something, then I'd def change my perspective.
Click to expand...
Alright.

Infinite beat a Sonic that could take attacks from Void meant to destroy him and could beat Erazor Djinn in base, and Infinite should be stronger than Phantom King who could harm Classic Super Sonic (who’s comparable to Modern Super Sonic and could tank attacks from Time Eater) since Sonic Forces happens in the future after Sonic Mania as confirmed by TailsTube. Infinite also is the one who created the null space which is stated to be endless in the encyclo-speed-ia which means his range of power should be comparable to that by default. Infinite should be stronger than the Classic Super Sonic in Sonic Mania and therefore should scale above Time Eater. It’s pretty simple. Also the first Titan is stated to be the largest threat Sonic has ever been pitted against in the official description of this video

You can’t just base Infinite not being a Egg Wizard level threat off of him not directly fighting Super Sonic, he has the scaling to be above.
 
ThatBusyDude said:
Infinite beat a Sonic that could take attacks from Void meant to destroy him and could beat Erazor Djinn in base, and Infinite should be stronger than Phantom King who could harm Classic Super Sonic (who’s comparable to Modern Super Sonic and could tank attacks from Time Eater) since Sonic Forces happens in the future after Sonic Mania as confirmed by TailsTube. Infinite also is the one who created the null space which is stated to be endless in the encyclo-speed-ia which means his range of power should be comparable to that by default. Infinite should be stronger than the Classic Super Sonic in Sonic Mania and therefore should scale above Time Eater. It’s pretty simple. Also the first Titan is stated to be the largest threat Sonic has ever been pitted against in the official description of this video
Click to expand...
Firstly, the description of the video doesn't even sound like it's referring solely to the first boss, but the overarching enemies throughout the game (More specifically the Titans plural). You can take the YouTube video as higher authoritatively, but I'll stick to using director of the game stating the first boss of the game is = to Super Sonic level threats of the past.
Kishimoto: "Up until now, in Sonic games, Super Sonic would only appear against the last boss. Imagine if the first boss in Sonic Frontiers is as strong as those bosses"
Click to expand...
I can't remember if this is the case, but I recall Void was being planned to be downgraded from 2-A/2-B IIRC? To whatever Tier Base Sonic is at the time. Erazor Djinn is fine, no issue with that. If we treat Phantom King as a Super Sonic level opponent, I personally wouldn't scale Infinite to him for reasons already stated. I agree with Infinite scaling to creating Null Space, though that'd be a feat less impressive than what Base Sonic at the time scales to (Which IIRC we currently treat Base Sonic as 2-C? Or is it Low 2-C?). I wouldn't scale Infinite > Classic Super Sonic either but I won't stop you from doing so.

My main contentions are the fact that people automatically interpret "Most Powerful" to mean "Physically strongest" when powerful isn't inherently relating to physical strength.

Also, looking into the twitter statement, he doesn't even directly affirm Infinite to be the strongest:
At the time of SONIC FORCES, Eggman certainly said so, and he utilized Infinite as his most powerful weapon. However, Eggman gave up on him early on in the end of the story and even took away the Phantom Ruby. Eggman's true intentions are always unclear and shrouded in mystery :)
Click to expand...
Him stating Eggman said so isn't the same as him directly stating Infinite is the strongest, and "utilizing him as his most powerful weapon" doesn't have to correlate to AP either. That's an arbitrary extrapolation of what he said imo. Especially since The Phantom Ruby's hax was being hyped up in particular, with the ability to create hyper realistic illusions that can affect people with destroying the world around them, and could construct an endless army.

You can disagree with my points, but I don't really wish to debate any further about something I have my mind set on since outside of hype statements, Infinite isn't portrayed as a threat on such a level when SEGA has shown the capacity to depict people on such levels as they should be. It seems like they threw out a blanket hype statement to get you psyched up for the game without committing to it at all, so I can't commit to it within the game if he's not treated in such a fashion. This is feeling like a ZaStando debate (Which btw, you have an awful lot of ZaStando scans, it's kind of impressive), and those always tire me quickly. It always feels like a debate to get Sonic as strong as possible because it's a favorite verse as opposed to being intellectually honest.

I will say this; if you firmly believe Infinite to be => to character's like Solaris, Egg Wizard, etc., instead of replying to this comment (Since I lack little interest on the topic of Infinite), make a CRT. I have a feeling I know what most people will say, but it does at least create more of an impact then arguing back and forth here.

I also say this for my sake, since if you respond to this comment, I know for a fact I'll reply back to what you say because I have a bad habit not dropping something someone else brought up if they reply to my comment even if the debate is exhausting me. Prolly because it feels fair for whoever went second to get the last rebuttal imo (Since if they don't, they end up with less turns overall than the person who initiated). But I can't really stop you from replying. Do as you wish, just keep in mind that I don't have an open-mind regarding Infinite scaling at all and that you'd likely get more constructive results if you instead made a CRT.
 
LaserPrecision said:
Firstly, the description of the video doesn't even sound like it's referring solely to the first boss, but the overarching enemies throughout the game (More specifically the Titans plural). You can take the YouTube video as higher authoritatively, but I'll stick to using director of the game stating the first boss of the game is = to Super Sonic level threats of the past.

I can't remember if this is the case, but I recall Void was being planned to be downgraded from 2-A/2-B IIRC? To whatever Tier Base Sonic is at the time. Erazor Djinn is fine, no issue with that. If we treat Phantom King as a Super Sonic level opponent, I personally wouldn't scale Infinite to him for reasons already stated. I agree with Infinite scaling to creating Null Space, though that'd be a feat less impressive than what Base Sonic at the time scales to (Which IIRC we currently treat Base Sonic as 2-C? Or is it Low 2-C?). I wouldn't scale Infinite > Classic Super Sonic either but I won't stop you from doing so.

My main contentions are the fact that people automatically interpret "Most Powerful" to mean "Physically strongest" when powerful isn't inherently relating to physical strength.

Also, looking into the twitter statement, he doesn't even directly affirm Infinite to be the strongest:

Him stating Eggman said so isn't the same as him directly stating Infinite is the strongest, and "utilizing him as his most powerful weapon" doesn't have to correlate to AP either. That's an arbitrary extrapolation of what he said imo. Especially since The Phantom Ruby's hax was being hyped up in particular, with the ability to create hyper realistic illusions that can affect people with destroying the world around them, and could construct an endless army.

You can disagree with my points, but I don't really wish to debate any further about something I have my mind set on since outside of hype statements, Infinite isn't portrayed as a threat on such a level when SEGA has shown the capacity to depict people on such levels as they should be. It seems like they threw out a blanket hype statement to get you psyched up for the game without committing to it at all, so I can't commit to it within the game if he's not treated in such a fashion. This is feeling like a ZaStando debate (Which btw, you have an awful lot of ZaStando scans, it's kind of impressive), and those always tire me quickly. It always feels like a debate to get Sonic as strong as possible because it's a favorite verse as opposed to being intellectually honest.

I will say this; if you firmly believe Infinite to be => to character's like Solaris, Egg Wizard, etc., instead of replying to this comment (Since I lack little interest on the topic of Infinite), make a CRT. I have a feeling I know what most people will say, but it does at least create more of an impact then arguing back and forth here.

I also say this for my sake, since if you respond to this comment, I know for a fact I'll reply back to what you say because I have a bad habit not dropping something someone else brought up if they reply to my comment even if the debate is exhausting me. Prolly because it feels fair for whoever went second to get the last rebuttal imo (Since if they don't, they end up with less turns overall than the person who initiated). But I can't really stop you from replying. Do as you wish, just keep in mind that I don't have an open-mind regarding Infinite scaling at all and that you'd likely get more constructive results if you instead made a CRT.
Click to expand...
It’s obvious it’s referring to the first boss because 1. Undefeatable is Giganto’s theme. 2. The video only features Giganto. And 3. Let’s read “With the largest threat Sonic has ever been pitted against, the odds are not in his favor as he approaches the big fight. It's going to take the seven Chaos Emeralds and a bit of luck to take down the Titans of Starfall Island. Is he truly Undefeatable?” It says “it’s going to take the seven Chaos Emeralds and a bit of luck to take down the Titans of Starfall island in which they use a quote specifically from 3:07 of when Sonic first encounters Giganto and is defeated. This would still contradict the director’s statement that Giganto is on the level of the previous bosses because Sonic has never made any claim about needing luck to defeat the previous threats when coupled with the Chaos Emeralds so Giganto has to automatically be above them but that’s besides the fact that Kishimoto didn’t mean that Giganto was only on the level of the previous Super Sonic bosses but put in flowery language to say Giganto is going to need Super Sonic to beat him, that’s why he said he’s a foe that Base Sonic cannot scratch. I’ll take the statement from the YouTube channel since that seemingly comes from Sega themselves and is supported by the game.

That would in my opinion be illogical due to Sonic’s 2-B/2-A multiverse making it so there’s a countless number of people therefore a countless number of dreams in maginaryworld. Void threatened to destroy maginaryworld and he wasn’t even trying but that’s just me. It’s fine if you don’t, I’m just saying that Infinite should bare minimum be scaled higher than Erazor and Void which would make Sonic higher into 2-C and up though it’s a valid argument to make since Classic is the past and Eggman overclocked that same ruby and then perfectly copied it after multiple tries then stuck it onto Infinite.

The context is that Eggman is stating that Infinite can return all of Sonic’s wins against Eggman a thousandfold and calls Infinite both unstoppable and his masterpiece in both Eng and Jap versions of the game, it’s not just hype statements. I find it odd that you refuse to use multiple sources implying Infinite is a super form threat but agree with Kishimoto saying Giganto is as strong as previous Super Sonic bosses over basically Sega themselves saying the Titans are above them and Sonic needs luck even with the emeralds to be able to win explicitly when he’s never needed that in any other super form fight.

There is a simple thing called upscaling and it can be applied in a lot of cases even if the characters lack the feats, there are multiple cases of Infinite being implied to be above the previous Sonic threats or at least Eggman’s inventions because Eggman calls him unstoppable, proceeds to call him masterpiece, Infinite (despite having the data from Eggman’s defeats) calling the phantom ruby unrivaled, Eggman saying he didn’t think Infinite could lose and then when Eggman gets his hand on the ruby in the end of the game he says he has become the ultimate form by just merely incorporating the phantom ruby that Infinite had into the MDER? Multiple sources indicate that Infinite was a cut above the rest, if not him then the MDER should be considered a step up. The reason you don’t see him as Egg Wizard level is because he never fought Super Sonic directly which frankly isn’t enough with what’s shown imo but I’m not going to push you to agree with me. What are your reasons for Infinite not scaling above Phantom King? Because I didn’t get why he doesn’t to you.

I’m aware I’m using a lot of Geb’s scans because some of them are good, I keep the more goony stuff out. Geburah made a document about Sonic and then posted a bunch of scans there, I’m just getting scans from there. That’s why I have a lot of his scans, it’s pretty accessible lol.

I was thinking about doing that but I wanted to review the arguments with you guys first which is what this is about. Infinite should be above Void and Erazor at least just for being able to body Sonic twice with little difficulty when he should be stronger since those games where Void and Erazor failed to beat him.

I completely understand but I want to at least understand your reasoning.

This will be my last comment about this, I’ll see if I want to make a content revision thread or not.
 
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I am curious.

If Super Shadow and Super Sliver were to aid Super Sonic against The End (without Master Koco unleashing the hidden power). Would they win?
 
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