Sonic fights Death himself

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Make this a CRT before presenting the abilities in a vs thread because in these fights we go off info on the profiles.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alongside what Foney was saying, Sonic also died to Mephiles in '06, which you guys are treating as happening just like it did in the game. Evidenced by the fact that '06 is the only reason Super forms are immeasurable.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

^ Still find that BS but whatever. I don't have the patience to deal with debating it.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Alongside what Foney was saying, Sonic also died to Mephiles in '06, which you guys are treating as happening just like it did in the game. Evidenced by the fact that '06 is the only reason Super forms are immeasurable.

Guess we're gonna ignore the whole Dimitri using Chaos Knuckles power to allow Knuckles to become Enerjak who would scale to his speed of being in a realm outside linear time and space.Also Ultra Sonic warps and alters time by movement alone.Master Mogul's attacks can intercept and hit the Ancient Walkers who Super Sonic,Hyper Knuckles and Turbo Tails fought.

Solaris isn't the only reason for Immeasurable Super forms.

I also have a huge problem with the 06 dying thing.I'll bring it up of course if necessary in terms of a CRT.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Except power =/= speed. Being empowered by CK doesn't make Knuckles Enerjak the speed of Chaos Knuckles in the same way as Pikachu being empowered by Groudon doesn't make Pikachu Groudon's speed. The Ultra Sonic thing isn't a quantifiable speed feat either. Not to mention none of that is on the profiles and it's all based on Solaris.

 

[ShakeResounding]

"All based on Solaris"

Lemme stop you there, Chief. Sonic moving fast enough to make Knothole travel several hours into the future by speed alone is an Immeasurable speed feat. And the sole reason it isn't on the profiles? I have a CRT prepped and ready to go after all this Game Sonic business is over.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

>Master Mogul is literally used as one of his reasons on his profile which you never addressed.

>False,this is chaos energy we're talking about which is know to amp everything they have.Aurora gained the power of the Chaos Force she became in a state beyond time and space and so did Chaos Knuckles.If this same energy allowed Chaos Knuckles to gain such power to become one with the Chaos Force why wouldn't it effect Enerjak's speed especially when his true form exists within it and his avatar is derived from Chaos Knuckles own power that allowed him to become outside time and space.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Shake. No, it's time travel, either throw powers or through going FTL. Unless you're saying the Powerpuff Girls and some random meteor from Courage are immeasurable for doing something similar. I literally just downgraded IDW Discord for doing this. The "travelling through time through sheer speed" is so scrutinized as a feat that it will almost never be added without caveats.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Oblivion. Ah so you're saying Super Sonic and the crew all exist in the Chaos Force. Because that's the only way what you're saying make sense. Mammoth Mogul only has reasoning for Omnipresent, not immeasurable. That's just blank.

 

[ShakeResounding]

"Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed. However, due to general inconsistencies, and the fact that several fictions grant this ability to any character able to move FTL, they may be assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated on a case-by-case basis."

Oh, really? This is what the speed page itself says under Note 5, I'm just going by the page.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. Really. Read everything after the first line, not the bits that support your argument. Is Flash immeasurable? How bout SA Superman? Again, Discord? No?

(No hard feelings of course. You're still my dude, Shake. Even when I'm being confrontational.)

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

>No they simply scale off beings who are one with the Chaos Force.

>Tagging the Ancient Walkers with the last of his energy from his 1st Tenure form allows him to scale.This reason should probably be added.His omnipresence comes from his 2nd tenure form.

 

[ShakeResounding]

No, what I'm doing is correcting your flawed argument. You say it isn't possible. The page says it is. This isn't even about Sonic's feat anymore as much as it is about the standards in general. I'm not ignorant, Cal.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Oblivion. The Ancient Walkers were dying already and were heavily weakened. There's no reason for them to scale for the same reason Thor doesn't scale to peak Galactus. You don't scale to beings that are already on death's door when you fight them.

The cast never fight Chaos Knuckles, Aurora, or True Enerjak. They don't scale to Chaos Force beings, especially given it causes insane circular scaling (Super Sonic = Hyper Knuckles <<<<< Chaos Knuckles = Super Sonic).

 

[ShakeResounding]

Okay wait, I seem like an asshole here. I apologize, more attitude and sass is escaping than what should be lol

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No, what I'm doing is correcting your flawed argument. You say it isn't possible. The page says it is. This isn't even about Sonic's feat anymore as much as it is about the standards in general. I'm not ignorant, Cal.

Yeah. I brought up that the standards were flawed in the Discord thread. Discord the character, not the website. Not to mention that neither of us can name a single character that's immeasurable off of that alone.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Okay wait, I seem like an asshole here. I apologize, more attitude and sass is escaping than what should be lol

No worries, my dude. It's just a debate. Fictional characters. Even if we wound up getting riled up at one another, we'd wind up putting it behind us in a matter of hours.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Not to be that guy, but how am I supposed to know that you questioned the standards themselves? If you mentioned it earlier, I wouldn't have even argued as to why you were saying that!

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

@Oblivion. The Ancient Walkers were dying already and were heavily weakened. There's no reason for them to scale for the same reason Thor doesn't scale to peak Galactus. You don't scale to beings that are already on death's door when you fight them.

The cast never fight Chaos Knuckles, Aurora, or True Enerjak. They don't scale to Chaos Force beings, especially given it causes insane circular scaling (Super Sonic = Hyper Knuckles <<<<< Chaos Knuckles = Super Sonic).

No...

>Mammoth Mogul's 1st Tenure blow was what fatally wounded them which eventually they were killed by the Arachnid tribe using the Sword of Acorns to free Ixis due to the dimensional shift that pushed the Walkers past their limit which killed them.The Ancient Walkers were fine before being fatally wounded by Mogul.

>Chaos Knuckles = Enerjak >(by not much)Super Sonic = Hyper Knuckles

Keep in mind that Sonic was winning against Enerjak due to his aura progressively weakening him.Also Chaos Force entities aren't portrayed as being infinitely superior to super forms as Master Mogul who had Enerjak's power was able to severely damage the Ancient Walkers who were cited to be equal in power to Chaos Knuckles.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Simple. Because The real cal howard is the epitome of a dummy lol

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

So is Archie Sonic scaling in general but anyway....

 

[Foneybone1]

Mogul wounding the walkers was retconed to taking place after he had also entered the Chaos Force. The triple threat doesn't scale.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Proof of this?

Because if so that completely contradicts what we've seen in the comic.Because the moment Mogul broke free he used the last of his power from his 1st Tenure form to wound the Walkers.

 

[Foneybone1]

It's consistantly placed after Mogul steal's Chaos Knuckle's power in the encyclopedia (Mogul and the Walker's pages and the timeline) making it an intentional change to the lore. The change was done to improve consistancey, if Mogul wounded them during his first tenure the triple threat scales above the walkers which is ridiculous.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

They would still scale however.

>Note that Chaos Knuckles's power was necessary to create the "new" Enerjak.This is the same power that granted Mogul the ability to tag the Walkers in the first place.

>No the Super forms in no way are superior to Chaos Force beings however they are comparable as they would just scale below them.Not to mention Sonic's aura was slowly but surely weakening Enerjak's power.Hell the echidnas believed Turbo Tails would have the power to counter Chaos Knuckles.

>My scaling never involved the Ancient Walkers scaling below Super forms.

 

[Foneybone1]

Sonic is not comparable to Enerjak, Knuckles was massively weakened when he fought him and they were fighting evenly. Sonic says his aura is making progress against "the dark magic" meaning Finitvus' hex not Enerjak himself.

If Mogul was able to mortally wound the walkers but not the triple threat, they would scale above them, hence why the time Mogul wounds them was moved.

I know you didn't scale super forms above the walkers, but that is how they scale if Mogul's first tenure wounds the walkers.

 

[ElixirBlue]

1st Tenure form allows him to scale.This reason should probably be added.His omnipresence comes from his 2nd tenure form.

@Oblivion. The Ancient Walkers were dying already and were heavily weakened. There's no reason for them to scale for the same reason Thor doesn't scale to peak Galactus. You don't scale to beings that are already on death's door when you fight them.

Ok, time to be the scan guy again. The Ancient Walkers were healthy and fine and not at Death's door till Mogul broke out of the freshly, made Master Emerald.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Hm. I guess it was a recon, though it's strange that same recon never mentioned the Ancient Walker's death or the lost of the Source of All or mention Knuckles coming back from the dead.

 

[Foneybone1]

There's too much information to be all put into the timeline. All of those things are mentioned on the character's pages.

 

[ElixirBlue]

And if all of this is true, how did Super Sonic preform a feat greater than Master Mogul with the SGW?

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Sonic is not comparable to Enerjak, Knuckles was massively weakened when he fought him and they were fighting evenly. Sonic says his aura is making progress against "the dark magic" meaning Finitvus' hex not Enerjak himself.

If Mogul was able to mortally wound the walkers but not the triple threat, they would scale above them, hence why the time Mogul wounds them was moved.

I know you didn't scale super forms above the walkers, but that is how they scale if Mogul's first tenure wounds the walkers.

>No,Enerjak flat out said he couldn't destroy Super Sonic by any means.Super Sonic's aura was weakening Enerjak's control over Knuckles but only by a little bit it was neutralizing Enerjak's dark energy it's not just DR Finitivus'd hex because he neutralized Finitvus's hex immediately when becoming Super but Enerjak's resists his aura which is why it only slightly nulled Enerjak.Keep in mind Sonic was also not going all out because he didn't want to kill Knuckles in the first place.Super Sonic had the upper hand and was ultimately taunting and teasing Enerjak while Enerjak was enfuriated.This site accepts the two as comparable.The entire fight in the context has the two on equal grounds Enerjak being weakened and Super Sonic toying around and not wanting to kill Knuckles.If he really just wanted to kill Knuckles he could have just lol erased him with Chaos Control.Enerjak is superior but not immensely stronger than Super Sonic.Super Sonic however still scales from Enerjak/Chaos Knuckles.

>I accepted that.Still doesn't disprove my reasons for them scaling below but still scaling to Chaos Force beings.Master Mogul 1st Tenure wasn't superior to each of them combined.All he did was just knock them away.A single hit from Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles sent him flying back.Master Mogul is superior due to having Enerjak's power which should by default be over Super Sonic but Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles were still able to harm and contend against Master Mogul despite being weaker.

>Also massive derail take it to my wall if you want to continue this discussion.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

And if all of this is true, how did Super Sonic preform a feat greater than Master Mogul with the SGW?

Oh boy I have tons of stuff on the Wave to say on Discord I can explain in VC as here is not the best time.Ask me anything and I can answer in VC to make things easier.

 

[Genericstickman]

wait doesn't soulhax bypass Sonic's fatehax?

 

[Theuser789]

Sonic """"dying"""" happened of screen and we don't even know how nor why, and even in the original game Elise says that Sonic's Spirit was still alive by felling the wind, trying to say type 8 isn't legit because of this is wrong

And this entire discussion is derail, make a CRT to fix those stuff

 

[Theuser789]

^ Still find that BS but whatever. I don't have the patience to deal with debating it.

Stop calling things wank or BS if you can't debate on why

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Okay, this is derailing first off Cal. This has absolutely no relation to the thread. Regardless, I will correct a way problems here. First off, PPG doing that feat is explained in-universe by an old theory that was that travelling at FTL speeds allowed them to Time Travel. This is such a ridiculous False Equivalency that I'm not sure why such a comparison is being made. As for Courage, that wasn't accounted for as that's the way we treat cartoon profiles. SpongeBob isn't Infinite MFTL+ - Infinite for a similar reason as they are gag feats. The feat Shake is citing doesn't even come from the earlier parts of the Comic so you can't discredit it as such. Again, another False Equivalence.

As for Superman and Flash, I'm rather sure they get such a note for a reason stated in-universe for DC. That or the fact they don't show such a level consistently enough for it to apply to Combat Speed. That's just due to the thousands of feats of feats they have to catalog unlike Archie, the standards for the scaling is treated most differently than a lot of characters on the site.

I'd have to check the Discord thread, but your proposition of it just coming from travelling FTL? Absolutely not. There are multiple moments Sonic travels faster than light with it even being acknowledged as such in the Comic, not even just calcs. There were no such adverse effects happening when he did those feats. It would be absolutely ludicrous to say that those ideas of traveling at FTL speeds get retconned but reimplemented also right after. If you have a problem, bring it up on the thread when it comes up. I will gladly take this there when it is made.

The topic now is Sonic vs Death, not his speed.

 

[Genericstickman]

bump

 

[Genericstickman]

bump

 

[Mister6ame6]

Inconclusive FRA

 

[Bobsican]

Incon FRA