Something From The Nightside | Greenverse Discussion Thread

[Udlmaster]

Next thing on the agenda is immeasurable speed for Angels, Demons and beings from Outside
Considering that lesser angels such as Angelic Droods are able to fly through the Chronoflow and beings from Outside see the future as another direction to move in it should be pretty simple

Well that, and Pretty Poison appearing as an Angel was manifesting from so many higher dimensions (which work differently in Greenverse, but regardless) and that was just her appearing.

When she teleports the group in Hex and the City she moves them through Hell and back, describing it as a "Detour" meaning she literally moved everyone through Hell, which... is very damn impressive.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, John can see Tachyons too, and it's not even consistent since he can see in stopped time, so Immeasurable speed is hilariously consistent.

 

[Rutæhh]

After rereading a few Nightside books, I can appreciate Merlin's character a bit better.
He's far more interesting than I gave him credit for.
Razor Eddie>> still tho

 

[Rutæhh]

Ghost Finders >= Nightside >>>> Secret Histories
In terms of how much I liked them

 

[Udlmaster]

After rereading a few Nightside books, I can appreciate Merlin's character a bit better.
He's far more interesting than I gave him credit for.
Razor Eddie>> still tho

Nah, I don't think Eddie is near Merlin's level

You gotta realise Eddie couldn't fight off a single Angel (without the speaking gun) while Merlin was keeping both armies of Heaven and Hell at bay casually all the while without his heart.

 

[Rutæhh]

Nah, I don't think Eddie is near Merlin's level

You gotta realise Eddie couldn't fight off a single Angel (without the speaking gun) while Merlin was keeping both armies of Heaven and Hell at bay casually all the while without his heart.

no i meant from a writing stand point

 

[Udlmaster]

Oh, Well, that's up to you

 

[Rutæhh]

Should the Walking Man have resistance to all the abilities within the Verse or just the ones that in the Material world?
I am unsure about whether to give him resistance to the abilities of Outsiders like the Primal (even though its so weak) and major league characters like Merlin

 

[Udlmaster]

Should the Walking Man have resistance to all the abilities within the Verse or just the ones that in the Material world?
I am unsure about whether to give him resistance to the abilities of Outsiders like the Primal (even though its so weak) and major league characters like Merlin

I think he should. We know that his resistances come from God, so I don't see why any ability would be able to overcome it. The only thing that could overcome it was the Speaking Gun and that was only because it used some of God's power.

 

[Rutæhh]

Seems like in terms of AP scaling
Walking Man>>>>Lord of Thorns>>>>Weakened Angels
And it seems that even when Angels are at full power they are still taught to fear the Lord of Thorns.

Hmmm I think they could be an argument for star lvl Lord of Thorns and Walking Man using the statement of possessed John stating that he could breath life into dying suns as well as speeding the orbit of planets.

 

[Udlmaster]

I think they could be an argument for star lvl Lord of Thorns and Walking Man

Star level?

He's gonna be 1-A

 

[Rutæhh]

are gods in the Nightside resistant to magic?
I need to push the Razor Eddie agenda
oh ive been meaning to ask which other profiles you are doing

 

[Rutæhh]

would good and evil in the Greenverse be considered a dual system?

 

[Udlmaster]

are gods in the Nightside resistant to magic?
I need to push the Razor Eddie agenda
oh ive been meaning to ask which other profiles you are doing

I don't remember anything to the effect happening, though Magick can just be overpowered by things like;

Your fundamental nature
Just being too powerful
Not believing in the Magick
Etc.

would good and evil in the Greenverse be considered a dual system?

Probably not, it's most likely a transdual system, since we know things aren't black and white.

 

[Rutæhh]

I think this argument could work for H1-B Material Plane, Outside and Nightside

John Taylor, Julian Advent and Dead Boy were summoning an Angel

If we summon an angel, and please note the emphasis I am placing on the word if, what we'll get will be the real thing

And whilst doing so Dead Boy states that he sees multiple levels of reality. The definition for level according to the Cambridge dictionary, can mean many things but the one that makes the most sense would be "the amount of something" as Dead Boy states there are "more and more"

Something's happening," said Dead Boy, after a while. "I can feel energies forming all around us. I can See… I can See avenues opening up, levels of reality unfolding like the petals of a flower, more levels, more and more… I can See further than I ever could before… and I don't like it. It scares me. It's too big…

And then the Angel was summoned and it came from "Above" and that is was impossibly large.

By now we could all feel Something approaching, from a direction we all instinctively recognised but couldn't identify. It felt like above, in all senses of the word. Something was coming into our world, Something impossibly large and powerful, downloading itself into a mortal frame that wouldn't blow all the fuses in our merely human minds.

Ethel, an Outsider came from a higher level of reality and was stated as being "realer" than those in the material world.

"Good question," I said. "Basically, Ethel can do all the amazing things she does because she's not from around here. Inasmuch as I, or anyone else in the family, is able to understand what she says on the subject . . . Ethel comes from a higher level of reality. You could say she's realer than us. Realer than our world, or our reality. It's not that Ethel won't explain herself; it's more that I don't think any of us are equipped to understand her answers."

The Hungry Gods also come from an even higher dimension than Ethel, and they move in more than 3 spatial dimensions.

It’s the tower,” he said, sounding strangely subdued. “It’s complete, Eddie, and almost ready to activate. It’s alive and aware, though not in any way you would recognise, and I can hear it thinking. It knows I’m watching. It comes from a stranger place than I do, an even higher dimension… The sheer power locked up in this thing is frightening. The Invaders, the Many-Angled Ones, the Hungry Gods are coming… and I’m scared, Eddie

The Invaders, the Many-Angled Ones, the Hungry Gods. Huge and vast, living things big as mountains. They existed in more than just three physical dimensions at once, so my mind interpreted their appearance as a series of overlapping images, always subtly shifting, never quite the same twice. Their aspect strobed in my head, as much an impression as an image. There were circles of them, rank upon rank, impossible numbers, stretching as far away into the distance as I could bear to look. Waiting.

and finally the Material Plane is the default universe so it should qualify for significant size

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah, I've already taken that into account.

Besides, Angels and Outsiders are outside of the Material world and its dimensions.

Under Ultima's new revision, dimensions in the Nightside series are X (whatever dimensionality) possibly 1-A with Lilith being flat out 1-A

 

[Rutæhh]

right now im making a justification for mental barriers. Thoughts?

maybe supernatural willpower for most mental barrier users? I mean even fodders like Chandra Singh are able to resist the Speaking Gun through mere will and use of mental barriers

 

[Rutæhh]

Seems to be a hierarchy in terms of power for Outsiders
For example the Primal, the Taint and the Messenger Boy aint moving mountains and were beaten by human characters (I mean John is special but still tho)

But the Hungry Gods, Ethel, The Voice, The Flesh Undying, Fenris Tenebrae, etc etc are able to warp reality by merely entering it

 

[Udlmaster]

The Primal warped reality too.

When they possessed the "Corpsesicles" John described how their bodies were twisting into directions not meant for human eyes or bodies.

Also, since the Primals existed before there was even physicality to the world, the Primals would logically pre-date all the dimensions of physical space.

 

[Quasar002]

I have a few questions for the connoisseurs of verse. Who would be the most powerful in the verse? Would it be God? If so, what tier does he take?

 

[Udlmaster]

I have a few questions for the connoisseurs of verse. Who would be the most powerful in the verse? Would it be God? If so, what tier does he take?

It would be God, as for his tier, it's at least 1-A

We don't know much about him at all, just that Lilith and him never got on.

Following God is the other Biblical myths, so True Form Lilith, The Adversary, etc.

Lilith's "glove puppet" in the material world was so powerful she thought of the Primal as mere Chalk drawings in comparison to her.

The Primal are conceptual entities, Ideas without the limitation of Flesh or Physicality born at the Dawn of time (or maybe even before it), hating humanity and all material things.

 

[Quasar002]

It would be God, as for his tier, it's at least 1-A

We don't know much about him at all, just that Lilith and him never got on.

Following God is the other Biblical myths, so True Form Lilith, The Adversary, etc.

Lilith's "glove puppet" in the material world was so powerful she thought of the Primal as mere Chalk drawings in comparison to her.

The Primal are conceptual entities, Ideas without the limitation of Flesh or Physicality born at the Dawn of time (or maybe even before it), hating humanity and all material things.

I understand. So God is the top, I imagine because he's based on the biblical God, he must be the creator of the universe/multiverse of the verse. Lilith seems quite powerful. Are the angels powerful too? Are there archangels as well? For example, Archangel Michael or Gabriel.

 

[Rutæhh]

I understand. So God is the top, I imagine because he's based on the biblical God, he must be the creator of the universe/multiverse of the verse.

Yes, he Spoke the entire verse into existence, but like Udlmaster said there is little to no information other than he and Lilith never got on, so he most likely never getting a profile. He also creates Walking Men

Lilith seems quite powerful.

She's top dog yeah. Shes was specifacally made more powerful than Archangels

"You could not destroy her, even with our help," said Baphomet. "She was created to be uniquely powerful, and so she is. Even here, in the material world. But together we could weaken and diminish her, so much so that the harm she could do in the future would be much lessened." ~Paths Not Taken; Angels, Demons and Mommie Dearest

Are the angels powerful too? Are there archangels as well? For example, Archangel Michael or Gabriel.

There are. From the top of my head the books they are seen in are Paths Not Taken and ShadowFalls. Angels are also pretty powerful as well being stated as impossibly large for the Material Plane

By now we could all feel Something approaching, from a direction we all instinctively recognised but couldn't identify. It felt like above, in all senses of the word. Something was coming into our world, Something impossibly large and powerful, downloading itself into a mortal frame that wouldn't blow all the fuses in our merely human minds.

This is them merely summoning a normal angel

 

[Udlmaster]

So God is the top, I imagine because he's based on the biblical God, he must be the creator of the universe/multiverse of the verse.

Yeah, The Nightside follows a very strange version of the Bible, where it's less literal and more parable. Lilith actually flat out says that to explain why she's so powerful, Eden was just a parable when reality and the Universe were much less screwed down than they were in the future.

For example, John and co go back in time several times in Paths Not Taken and to reach the time when the Nightside was made, John had to go countless years back to when Time and the laws of reality were less fixed and talks about the ancient Monsters in the forest, before they were bound by Human understanding.

If you're wondering, Time is circular in the Nightside series, so the events which happened after your Time travel already happened, for example, they go back in time 3 times, once to the fall of Camelot and the decline of the Roman Empire, then further back to the Height of the Roman empire and then lastly to the unfixed time. The first time he goes back a Doorman remembers him from 300 years in his (the Doorman's) past despite John not having yet gone that far back.
It does introduce the Boot strap paradox, like when John gives Lilith the idea to name the Nightside, the Nightside, so it begs the question "who came up with the name originally".

Lilith seems quite powerful.

She's probably the most powerful being we've seen on the page. Closest to her is probably the Walking Man

Are the angels powerful too?

Extremely. Angels show up in the Second book looking for an artifact, and despite the Nightside being absolutely cracked in terms of its offensive power and what they can do, they were losing to the Angels of Above and Below.

Thing was too, those angels were significantly weakened when entering the Nightside.

Are there archangels as well? For example, Archangel Michael or Gabriel.

There is "Gabriel", but he's not an Archangel, there aren't really any classifications of Angels, just "Angels".

The reason being is that these are Old school Angels, they're Messengers of God's judgement. "Spiritual SS" as Suzie puts it. They aren't men in gowns and harps, they're who you send when you want the first born of a generation kill or a city turn to ash.

Gabriel kinda shows up, but it's technically not really Gabriel. He and Baphomet show up but state they got their names and forms by taking images from John's and Suzie's head and that they don't really look like that.

 

[Quasar002]

Yes, he Spoke the entire verse into existence, but like Udlmaster said there is little to no information other than he and Lilith never got on, so he most likely never getting a profile. He also creates Walking Men

I understand. It's a shame there isn't much of it to create a profile.

She's top dog yeah. Shes was specifacally made more powerful than Archangels

Wow, Lilith is indeed very powerful, above the angels of heaven themselves! Would she be top 2 in the verse then? God first and then Lilith?

There are. From the top of my head the books they are seen in are Paths Not Taken and ShadowFalls. Angels are also pretty powerful as well being stated as impossibly large for the Material Plane

This is them merely summoning a normal angel

This quote is really quite something. From what I could gather, angels exist in a metaphysical dimension (heaven?) rather than a physical dimension per se, a dimension above in every sense of the word. Does this kind of quote grant existence beyond dimensional, or am I mistaken?

 

[Quasar002]

Yeah, The Nightside follows a very strange version of the Bible, where it's less literal and more parable. Lilith actually flat out says that to explain why she's so powerful, Eden was just a parable when reality and the Universe were much less screwed down than they were in the future.

For example, John and co go back in time several times in Paths Not Taken and to reach the time when the Nightside was made, John had to go countless years back to when Time and the laws of reality were less fixed and talks about the ancient Monsters in the forest, before they were bound by Human understanding.

I understand, so that's why she's so powerful, even above the angels.

If you're wondering, Time is circular in the Nightside series, so the events which happened after your Time travel already happened, for example, they go back in time 3 times, once to the fall of Camelot and the decline of the Roman Empire, then further back to the Height of the Roman empire and then lastly to the unfixed time. The first time he goes back a Doorman remembers him from 300 years in his (the Doorman's) past despite John not having yet gone that far back.
It does introduce the Boot strap paradox, like when John gives Lilith the idea to name the Nightside, the Nightside, so it begs the question "who came up with the name originally".

I see. It's interesting that the franchise mixes time travel and takes the opportunity to introduce such a complex paradox.

She's probably the most powerful being we've seen on the page. Closest to her is probably the Walking Man

Would Walking Man be a man with any connection to God?

Extremely. Angels show up in the Second book looking for an artifact, and despite the Nightside being absolutely cracked in terms of its offensive power and what they can do, they were losing to the Angels of Above and Below.

Thing was too, those angels were significantly weakened when entering the Nightside.

There is "Gabriel", but he's not an Archangel, there aren't really any classifications of Angels, just "Angels".

The reason being is that these are Old school Angels, they're Messengers of God's judgement. "Spiritual SS" as Suzie puts it. They aren't men in gowns and harps, they're who you send when you want the first born of a generation kill or a city turn to ash.

Gabriel kinda shows up, but it's technically not really Gabriel. He and Baphomet show up but state they got their names and forms by taking images from John's and Suzie's head and that they don't really look like that.

I see. Angels really are a powerful force in the verse, I personally quite like angels in fiction in general, so it's something that always catches my attention.

 

[Rutæhh]

Wow, Lilith is indeed very powerful, above the angels of heaven themselves! Would she be top 2 in the verse then? God first and then Lilith?

yeah

This quote is really quite something. From what I could gather, angels exist in a metaphysical dimension (heaven?) rather than a physical dimension per se, a dimension above in every sense of the word. Does this kind of quote grant existence beyond dimensional, or am I mistaken?

perharps, i'll attempt to add it their physiology later

 

[Udlmaster]

Would Walking Man be a man with any connection to God?

The Walking Man is the Wrath of God in the World of Men, nothing can turn him aside as long as he follows in God's path.

 

[Rutæhh]

if anybody is interested in this CRT please do join i need votes

 

[Rutæhh]

when one is resistant to magic/ has protective spells in place can we assume that they are resistant to all spells showcased. Well not the ones displayed by the Metcalf sisters and Merlin as theirs is layered

 

[Udlmaster]

when one is resistant to magic/ has protective spells in place can we assume that they are resistant to all spells showcased. Well not the ones displayed by the Metcalf sisters and Merlin as theirs is layered

No, only Combat Magick. Gifts like The Jonah's ability/magick works on people who are normally immune to magickal attacks like Deadboy.

 

[Rutæhh]

are there any good regeneration feats? Like stuff in the godly tiers? the most i can remember is a fodder demon regenerating his head and razor eddies immo type 4

 

[Udlmaster]

are there any good regeneration feats? Like stuff in the godly tiers? the most i can remember is a fodder demon regenerating his head and razor eddies immo type 4

Lilith would have High-Godly, as Limbo destroyed her body constantly, as she described it reducing her to living in potentiality outside of Time and Space, thus when Lilith returns to the World, she regenerates her body.

Angels are likely the same.

Merlin likely has Low-Mid regeneration, since we're told if he gets his heart back, he'll fully recover back to being alive.

 

[Rutæhh]

thoughts on this blog

 

[Udlmaster]

thoughts on this blog

I think you've become confused by Outsiders and Psychonaughts. Outsiders are entities like the Primal, who are like Psychonaughts but only indirectly due to their existence messing with reality.

Psychonaughts are already in reality, just a higher (or lower) level of it. Outsiders are that, stuck outside of reality. The Primal are purely conceptual beings who were cast out of creation during the early days and have been trying to get in ever since.

We also know of some of the other Outsiders screaming outside of time and space and try to get in by having the Mammon Emporium get blown sky high to bust a hole large enough for them to come in, while the Psychonaughts had no issue coming to reality.

“This is an Outsider?” said Oliver, past the hand he’d clapped over hismouth and nose to try to keep out the smell.

“No, I told you: this is one of their messenger boys. Hey, you! Yes, you, puke face! Knock off the special effects and take on a more traditional form, or I’ll turn the fire hose on you! I am John Taylor, and I don’t take no shit from demons!”

Nightsiders use "Demons" as a catch all "kicked out of reality" label, since they call the Primal demons too;

“We are The Primal. Purely conceptual beings, products of the earliest days of creation, before the glory of ideas was trapped and diminished in the narrow confines of matter. Kept out of the material worlds, to protect its fragile creatures of meat and mortality. Ever since Time was, we were. Waiting and watching at the Edge of things, searching eternally for a way in, to finally show our contempt and hatred for all the lesser creations, that dare to dream of being more than they are. We are The Primal. We were here first. And we will be here when all the meat that dares to think ha been stamped back into the mud it came from.”

“Typical bloody demons,” said Dead Boy. “Created millennia ago, and still sulking because they didn’t get better parts in the story. Let’s get this over with. Come on, let’s see what you can do!”

 

[Rutæhh]

I think you've become confused by Outsiders and Psychonaughts. Outsiders are entities like the Primal, who are like Psychonaughts but only indirectly due to their existence messing with reality.

I see i reread some parts of the chapter and you are right
Higher dimesional Psychenauts seem to be able to lower their true form whilst beings like the Great Beasts and Demons cant, I will have to do some work on this

Psychonaughts are already in reality, just a higher (or lower) level of it. Outsiders are that, stuck outside of reality. The Primal are purely conceptual beings who were cast out of creation during the early days and have been trying to get in ever since.

We also know of some of the other Outsiders screaming outside of time and space and try to get in by having the Mammon Emporium get blown sky high to bust a hole large enough for them to come in, while the Psychonaughts had no issue coming to reality.

The Messager Boy didnt seem to have any problem entering reality but i get your point.

Nightsiders use "Demons" as a catch all "kicked out of reality" label, since they call the Primal demons too;

So would it would seem best to remove the Psychenaut stuff thanks for the feedback

 

[Udlmaster]

The Messager Boy didnt seem to have any problem entering reality but i get your point.

He did, John actually says the Outsiders had to give him power to summon himself;

“Demons,” I said. “I swear, you’re worse than five-year-olds. Want want want and stamp your cloven feet if you can’t get your own way. But ... while you talk a good game, I think you’re running scared. Your masters wouldn’t waste all the power it takes to force a messenger into our reality unless you were worried something might go wrong. You can’t come in ... unless Oliver here blows the doors open; and your masters are shit scared I might talk Oliver out of it. That’s it, isn’t it? You’re afraid his resolve is weakening. You’re trying to bully him into serving you. How do you feel about that, Oliver? Now you know what your death would really bring about?”

So would it would seem best to remove the Psychenaut stuff thanks for the feedback

Yeah, I think Psychenauts aren't Outsiders, as they're a part of reality. Outsiders are completely foreign to reality entirely, hence why every time we see them, they want to get in.

 

[Rutæhh]

Lilith would have High-Godly, as Limbo destroyed her body constantly, as she described it reducing her to living in potentiality outside of Time and Space, thus when Lilith returns to the World, she regenerates her body.

Shouldn't transient beings scale to this? The Babalon Working was being summoned and likely would have done the same thing as its a physical incarnation.

 

[Udlmaster]

Shouldn't transient beings scale to this? The Babalon Working was being summoned and likely would have done the same thing as its a physical incarnation.

Yeah

Transient Beings are on the same level as the Gods on the Street of the Gods, or a little higher but beneath weakened Angels and other powerful entities (such as Jessica Sorrow near the start of the series)

We know The Engineer, a transient being of Technology or Science still bowed to Lilith along with the other God-like beings.

Some transient beings are stronger than others, Father Time (who may or may not be a Transient Being) is definitely far beyond anything on the Street of the Gods, as no one, not even the Authorities could command him to do anything.

Likewise, Lady Luck seems to be an exceptionally powerful one too.

It's likely Babylon is one of these very powerful transient beings, since Walker, John's Father and the Collector all thought that if they were able to summon and bind them, it would let them overthrow the Authorities.

 

[Rutæhh]

Whats is currently accepted for 1-B Nightside? is it uncountable dimensions? I need to know for Drood armor and Ammonia Von Acht.

 

[Udlmaster]

Whats is currently accepted for 1-B Nightside? is it uncountable dimensions? I need to know for Drood armor and Ammonia Von Acht.

It's from the "Dimensions unfurling like petals of a flower, more and more and more."

But it's gonna be 1-A to High 1-A at most soon. Just waiting on Ultima's revision.

Basically, there's a lot of talk of Dimensions being "More real" or "Less real" than each other, which fits perfectly into Ultima's new revision.

So Pychenauts are gonna be At least High 1-C likely 1-A (This applies to similar Higher-D beings)

Outsiders are gonna be At least 1-B, likely 1-A

And Lilith will be 1-A, possibly High 1-A