Something About Castlevania

[UchihaSlayer96]

My thoughts are exactly the same as Planck's.

 

[Robo432343]

“the laws of the human world do not apply to Creatures of Chaos”
Are we going to assume every single law

 

[Ultima_Reality]

No, that's not how NPI works, it's literally being able to interact with the being in question as if they're a physical object to interact with. Actually harming them isn't remotely needed, and Soma's still in the other dimension while being grabbed in the current dimension so he's still being interacted with.

It is needed in this case, for the reasons I just outlined (i.e. The avoidance of damage is given by the intangibility, so if you bypass the intangibility, you bypass this avoidance). You haven't given any rebuttal whatsoever beyond "That's not how it works," when it is, in fact, how it works by basic logic.

It being exclusively to the human world isn't my main argument, it's that creatures of chaos are outside of whatever cause and effect rules apply in the human world and function on different rules, ergo different sets of cause and effect. The Acausality page itself even makes this clear


It's functioning on different systems than the regular world, being outside the laws of the normal world means you're not bound by their systems and you'd operate completely different than normal. If I was arguing that Causality was exclusively to the human world only and they're above all of cause and effect then I would've pushed for type 5 Acausality a long time ago with that kind of logic.

Bolded part is exactly what's being contested here, so repeating it does absolutely nothing. You haven't proved that normal causality (What I've been referring to all along, by the way, as you can see by me using "regular causality" and the like in previous posts of mine, so the last bit about Type 5 Acausality just shows you're missing the point) is at all restricted to the human world, which is, again, what you have to prove here. "Outside human law" = "Outside regular causality" is only a sound argument if regular causality is solely human law to begin with, which is something to be positively proven and not simply assumed. it's like how you wouldn't assume that the Abyss is also outside of the laws of logic just because those apply to the human world. Same deal goes here.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Robo432343 it literally has laws in plural, meaning more than one and Alucard knows more about creatures of chaos than anyone given he’s one himself and has been around since the beginning, unless you wanna say Alucard is wrong for some reason, there’s nothing to suggest that this is limited to specific laws.

@Ultima_Reality Can you stop ignoring the points I’m bringing up where Soma is still in the mirror dimension to begin with while the Succubus is in the normal dimension of the castle? This isn’t elemental or phasing intangibility where their body is still technically there, this is literally going to another dimension and his spot in the castle dimension is what’s being interacted with.

You literally admitted that causality is a part of human law, so why would a being that doesn’t operate under human laws would follow their cause and effect when scientific laws in general are always about Cause and effect in the first place? Plus again none of that was ever mentioned as a requirement for type 4 when stuff like existing outside of time conceptually or predating time would qualify for these kinds of Acausality when Causality isn’t needed to be spelled out. So either you’re bringing up some standard that wasn’t remotely accepted on the site or there would need to be some evaluation on Acausality type 4 as a whole.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Kinda late

That doesn't debunk the fact she still grabs you, like what part of that is game mechanics and not just something scripted to happen? Game mechanics is being able to die to normal weak enemies that are canonically weaker to you, not an in game scripted thing that's designed to happen.

What do you mean by "scripted" tho? Its not a cutscene, its not something inevitable to happen. She is coded to grab you and peform X animation once she hit the hitbox, and thats it. That's no different from trying to use animations of Dracula dying from a fall or Alucard dying to some random spikes to downgrade the verse, since its technically "scripted" and are animations.

The animation is triggered to happen no matter what. Its not as if the developers saw Succubus's code and said "No, she can touch the player while using Kyoma Demon, but she WON'T cause any damage, okay? ONLY HER can touch Soma, no other enemy, not even the all powerful Chaos itself, just her". Like, what the heck?

---

Also, a minor note about Acausality, is that the dialogue is talking about immortality, so the "laws of the human world" probably does not mean anything related to causality. I mean, theres a bunch of laws out there. The laws of gravity, of life and death, of newton, of natural selection, and so on, there's a hundred. Picking "laws of causality" out of no where without further context really doesn't sound accurate

C1: Precisely. That is what makes death so sinister: The abyss of time that brings to fruition even the most far-fetched of schemes. Do you know what is the biggest hindrance to humans when attempting to accomplish something?

C2: ...Is it that their lifesspans are limited? And individual's time is too short to accomplish a huge feat.

C1: You are correct. That limitation cannot be covercome. And the greater the feat, the truer this fact. But Death, like Dracula, is a dweller of the darkness where the laws of the human world do not apply. His time is eternal, for all itents and purposes. There is no mistaking that he has meticulously prepared for this moment a long while now

Its really just a flowery language to make immortality sound cooler

Won't comment futher cuz lazy

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

On second thought, I think Glassman is making more sense here.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Can you stop ignoring the points I’m bringing up where Soma is still in the mirror dimension to begin with while the Succubus is in the normal dimension of the castle? This isn’t elemental or phasing intangibility where their body is still technically there, this is literally going to another dimension and his spot in the castle dimension is what’s being interacted with.

Why would that change anything? Soma's actual body is phased into the mirror dimension, while the appearance of him in the castle is just an image. If the Succubus manages to physically grab him, she interacts with his body, and not with the image. Therefore, since she is interacting with his body, she should be able to harm him just fine.

If you say "She is interacting with the image, not his body, but interacting with the image is still NPI," then that'd just be NPI against regular intangibility, which would mean the proposal to remove NPI against spatial intangibility is still valid, since the thread only wants to remove that and not the entire ability. You seem to be effectively conceding the point with that.

You literally admitted that causality is a part of human law, so why would a being that doesn’t operate under human laws would follow their cause and effect when scientific laws in general are always about Cause and effect in the first place? Plus again none of that was ever mentioned as a requirement for type 4 when stuff like existing outside of time conceptually or predating time would qualify for these kinds of Acausality when Causality isn’t needed to be spelled out. So either you’re bringing up some standard that wasn’t remotely accepted on the site or there would need to be some evaluation on Acausality type 4 as a whole.

"Regular causality applies to the human world" is not the same proposition as "Regular causality is solely human law." I affirmed the former and not the latter. Saying they're the same is like saying "Dimensionality applies to the human world, therefore it's human law, and anything outside human law is outside dimensionality." You could, as said, apply that to a number of things which I'm sure you're not really willing to push for (Even if they involve the exact same logic and therefore are just as valid as what you're saying right now)

What this argument deals with also doesn't breach into any written standard for Acausality (Not to mention the fact that this statement is not remotely comparable to "Exists outside the concept of time," so that argument is doubly weird), so I don't believe any formal survey of the ability is needed, save for maybe spotting which verses have it for bad reasons. My arguments are pretty much entirely focusing on the brute logic of it, so either you actually address them (You haven't done that) or the ability is invalidly placed. Doesn't matter one whit if other verses also have bad justifications for it. This happens all the time.

 

[Theglassman12]

@LIFE_OF_KING Idk where you got the idea of Dracula dying from a fall since he's almost exclusively exists as a final boss, and the one game you play as proper dracula he just teleports away from a fall but ok, as for scripted I mean it in a similar vein to a QTE or something like a button mashing event where someone gets into a situation where they react to something or break out of a situation akin to god of war with where Kratos breaks out of being petrified or reacts to Hermes attacking him, something the devs have said was intentional in design and not some random gameplay feature thrown in for lols.

Also Alucard mentioning that he's immortal doesn't make it the only thing the creatures of chaos are outside of, otherwise he would've specified it being "the law of mortality is something creatures of chaos don't abide by" rather than a general statement of "the laws of the human world don't apply to them.

@Ultima_Reality The image being grabbed by the succubus isn't regular intangibility because the ability in question isn't a regular intangible thing to begin with. You'd have to make some massive leaps in headcanon to assume that the thing we have established as going through dimension to avoid attacks is somehow just elemental or normal phasing when that's not how the mirror ability works, and throughout the conversation you've already conceded to this being spatial intangibility.

Causality and dimensionality aren't the same thing so Idk why you're making that apples and oranges comparison here when one's a higher plane of existence jump and the other is just a being that doesn't operate under the same rules as more conventional forms of life. At this point neither of us are backing down, so I'm just gonna wait for the staff input to settle this.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I agree with Ultima here, specially on the acausality, which is supremely vague as far as I see it.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Causality and dimensionality aren't the same thing so Idk why you're making that apples and oranges comparison here when one's a higher plane of existence jump and the other is just a being that doesn't operate under the same rules as more conventional forms of life

They really aren’t that different in this context. Cause and effect are just “things happen as a result of things”, it doesn’t have to be limited by three dimensions or four dimensions. This is applying powerscaling logic to a situation devoid of it (and to an extremely vague statement anyway)

 

[Theglassman12]

I never said it's limited to dimensionality, I said that it's not the same comparison when they have different principles in the first place.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

@Robo432343 it literally has laws in plural, meaning more than one and Alucard knows more about creatures of chaos than anyone given he’s one himself and has been around since the beginning, unless you wanna say Alucard is wrong for some reason, there’s nothing to suggest that this is limited to specific laws.

I think the point is why is one of these laws specifically causality? Especially when the statement is talking about immortality.

I think the thing with the mirror dimension is dumb cause even in the video Ultima showed me of Soma using it, he still got struck by a fireball and it doesn't phase through him. Unless you have like, lore text to back up the mechanics of the mirror, just taking it at face value doesn't prove that Soma is intangible at all.

 

[Agnaa]

On Grabbing

• Is the animation any different than the ordinary grab animation, excepting any minor things like the target still having the same visual representation of being in the mirror?
• Are there any grabs that operate on the target differently, or do all work the same (entering an animation, but not dealing any damage)?

As best I can interpret, the answers to these are "no" and "no", from which, I'd provisionally say that grabbing is a game mechanic, due to not having any unique programming for that interaction.

On Acausality

This reasoning is just really bad. The statement by itself is way too vague to lead to anything specific like having irregular causality. On top of that, it seems to me like the sentence isn't talking about the "laws of the human world" as in laws of physics (物理), but rather, as in the rules, regulations, and morals governing human societies (人の法). With him being able to far outlive other humans being one example of this. Beyond just the original wording itself meaning that, the context heavily implies that; it talks about how human schemes are limited due to death, why would something like his protons having different masses come up?

EDIT: Supplementing this, the Japanese Wikipedia page for 人の法 redirects to the page for positive law (laws made by humans).

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

On Grabbing

• Is the animation any different than the ordinary grab animation, excepting any minor things like the target still having the same visual representation of being in the mirror?
• Are there any grabs that operate on the target differently, or do all work the same (entering an animation, but not dealing any damage)?

I'm not sure if there is any other any that performs a grab
There is another enemy but instead of grab in latches on you and forces you to keep attacking
It deals no damage to you but you basically get stuck
There is also an enemy called Dryad that can throw seeds that latched on you
even while phasing said seeds still latches on you but deals no damage