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Some SMT Early game upgrades

Honestly, that's one of the things that gives me conniptions about SMT

The demons (gameplay wise at least) shift around in power and even elemental affinities all the time, which like, usually isn't all that important but it's just an annoying inconsistency

Mothman is like, level 30 or so in Nocturne but 11 or so in IV
 
Shoutouts to Thor being level 16 or something in Devil Survivor
 
Even I could whoop that thor’s ass.
Ok enough derailing.
Anything else that needs clearing up, mostly the protagonists, I thought we would just scale them to the new feats? At worst they get one or two more keys?
 
I can agree with that, especially for long-running franchises such as SMT, though there's definitely demons that are always relegated to the early game.
 
I think it can be used if you're very careful, and in RPGs that don't have such a huge canon, but this clearly isn't the case.

And yeah Pele isn't always early game either, she's around level 30 in Soul Hackers and Persona Q (PQ obviously is a different deal but still)
 
Armorchompy said:
I think it can be used if you're very careful
Click to expand...
Well, like, if in canon they're shown to obviously be way greater in power more consistently, it obviously shouldn't count

But in this case Pele is just a random, low level demon in most of their appearances save Soul Hackers, that doesn't really have a purpose in the plot.
 
TFW I thought that was an actual response
 
I forgot to reply here on the thread; I did re-read the thread again. I agree with Matthew's points on no changes.
 
All staff members:

So what should be done here?
 
Okay. Can you remind us what his suggestions were please?
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. Can you remind us what his suggestions were please?
Click to expand...
Let me quote it
Matthew_Schroeder said:
I don't mind low Tier 7 for Early Game, tbh. Stuff like Fuu-ki and the Elemental Demons do suggest a higher level than just 8-C.

But even then, this shouldn't retroactively scale to every demon like a Pixie and Jack Frost, it should be noted.

Also I don't like using Pele for the feat since she's a Goddess. Even if she's the Goddess of Volcanos and her Compendium Feat is only Tier 7, she is still a goddess and so is probably way higher on the demon power scale than that.
Click to expand...
Basically: Fuu-ki can be used as a point of reference for low level demons, but complete fodder like Pixie and Petra, which can be killed by regular people, shouldn't scale to them. Pele's feat is unusable since she's a goddess, and thus has an status far greater than them.
 
The title of a god only has merit in what they are actually capable of doing. Yes, in SMT, they're generally pretty strong but, Pele has no feats to indicate they're particularly powerful. There isn't anything that contradicts them just being a low level enemy.
 
Matthew's and Ionliosite's analyses seem to make sense, but I am not the best person to ask.
 
DMUA said:
The title of a god only has merit in what they are actually capable of doing. Yes, in SMT, they're generally pretty strong but, Pele has no feats to indicate they're particularly powerful. There isn't anything that contradicts them just being a low level enemy.
Click to expand...
SMT is also the very same verse where we're already scaling demon gods to Low 2-C, even those that don't have any feat even close to that level, simply because of their status as gods should make them that strong. So unless you're arguing we should also downgrade all of those, which I wouldn't mind in case you want, her status as a goddess in lore takes priority over her placement in gameplay.
 
I mean tier 7 seems fine still no? If it is then I'm still all for it for BoG protags
 
When does Pele have any showings to make them Low 2-C?

You keep dodging around this by saying what you think they should be as opposed to what they actually show to be.
 
I do agree that Tier 7 upgrade should not happen.

I think Demon gods' tier should be treated more on a case by case from game lore and in canon-showing; this point though could be another topic.
 
DMUA said:
When does Pele have any showings to make them Low 2-C?
Click to expand...
Pele has 0 showings to make her Low 2-C. Just like we literally have multiple other gods rated as Low 2-C for no other reason other than being gods despite them having 0 showings on that scale. So again, either downgrade every Low 2-C who's a featless god or don't use a Tier 7 statement about a Low 2-C character for scaling low tiers.
 
If we have no reason for them to be Low 2-C they just shouldn't be Low 2-C, we shouldn't assume that Flynn can just casually have access to a demon infinitely stronger than him before he even gets out of Naraku.
 
Ok then, good that we settled on another SMT downgrade. Give me a moment that I'll look for all the affected pages.
 
Well, it seems that one of the pages I had in mind before was already deleted, but that still leaves me 4 pages who are Tier 2 despite being featless due to their status: Inti (literally Low 2-C for being a god), Matador (Low 2-C for being a Fiend), White Rider (2-A becuase his status scales him to someone who's featless and thus rated as Unknown) and Red Rider (2-A for scaling to White Rider). Good thing humans aren't being scaled to them or else we would have more work to do.
 
Matador could actually be argued to be around that level, since Demi-Fiend does fight Thor not long after his encounter with Matador

In general the fiends can just scale to Demi-Fiend if nothing else.
 
Okay. It isn't easy for me to know when all I have to go by is that he is listed in our Knowledgeable Members List though.
 
DMUA said:
since Demi-Fiend does fight Thor not long after his encounter with Matador
Click to expand...
Don't we literally say "don't use boss order scaling" on multiple threads? Saying "X is fought before Y" as an argument to make Y stronger creates too many incosistencies in the scaling.
 
I mean outside of the DF, almost all Fiend fights are tough, late game bonus bosses, outside of some weaker ones in SMT I and SJ
 
Again, the issue isn't when they are fought, the issue is that using boss order for scaling is something we advocate against. And the fact you pointed out that there ARE weak Fiends only worsens things on that angle.
 
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