Some SMT Early game upgrades

[DMUA]

Exactly what it says on the title. Been awhile since I've strolled up for a straight upgrade.

Currently BOG Flynn, as well as plenty of other people in the verse on a similar level, are 8-C via vaporizing a Lham Dearg. Pretty alright, but, there is way better stuff.

Pele's compendium entry makes note of her status as the god of volcanos and that she sends lava over the people (IE, causes eruptions) when angry, which would scale them to The Krakatoa Eruption, clocking in at 7-A

Pele is a pretty early demon and someone Flynn like would probably have already fused away by the time they fight Minotaur or really make all that much significant progress towards what could be considered Early Game.

Of course, that's kinda scratching the surface when compared to the fact the four elements are a thing and what Demi-Fiend is actually scaled to... that said, 8-A is kinda downplay. By a slight amount.

I'll be honest, I'm slightly iffy on taking them controlling the elements as responsibility for everything nature does, but, that's what we run with as of now, and if we do, Aeros should be capable of causing Hurricanes, which are High 7-C, and Erthys would cause not only the earthquakes, but probably the seismic movement of said earthquakes, which go up to 6-B

again, slightly iffy, but, at the very least everyone should scale to 7-A. Let's talk about it, shall we?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems reasonable, but better to contact those more familiar with SMT.

 

[DMUA]

I can't ping people on the forums and I've already posted this on every part of discord I can think of so ugh

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright

@Elizhaa @TISSG7Redgrave @Matthew_Schroeder @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Dragonmasterxyz @Edwellken @CrimsonStarFallen @Ionliosite @The_Divine_Phoenix

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I do not know anything about calcs, but I’ll look and see what adds up. Nice upgrade though.

Edit: They’re not calcs.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

There’s also this, so we have three ends. 7-A, 6-C, or 6-B.

Edit: Link is annoying and glitchy.

 

[DMUA]

The Fuu-ki calc is a bit wack, considering it assumes that he just sends out the energy of the entire hurricane over days and days in a single stroke, as opposed to just swinging and causing a hurricane, which I already linked to be High 7-C

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alright, so the ends are 7-A, 6-C, or 6-B or am I mistaken?

 

[DMUA]

7-A, likely 6-B is what I think we should go for myself, 6-C doesn't really fit in

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I can rock with that.

 

[DMUA]

That said, we'd probably have to change High Pixie's tier accordingly, but, slapping on a "far superior to their previous form" or something to that beat shouldn't be that hard

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So everyone bare minimum will be 7-A, likely 6-B? Makes scaling the early Septentriones easy, since they have little feats.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah, I think all the BOG protags would be around that level given Pele and Erthys both aren't that strong and could be considered near the beginning of the game.

On that note, the people who scale to this would be...

Flynn (of course), all his samurai buddies, the Netural, Law and Chaos hero of SMT 1, the Shining One and his friends (Might I also note those pages are an atrocity and I may very well just take up the reigns of fixing those since Yobo and Phoenix doing so has been on the backburner for eons), and... yeah, that's it.

Though some are actually locked, so...

Shining One, Io Nitta, Daichi Shijima, Airi Ban, Hinako Kujou, Fumi Kanno, Makoto Sako

And all the other stuff is unlocked for some reason, unless I missed something

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah, I think all the BOG protags would be around that level given Pele and Erthys both aren't that strong and could be considered near the beginning of the game.

On that note, the people who scale to this would be...

Flynn (of course), all his samurai buddies, the Netural, Law and Chaos hero of SMT 1, the Shining One and his friends (Might I also note those pages are an atrocity and I may very well just take up the reigns of fixing those since Yobo and Phoenix doing so has been on the backburner for eons), and... yeah, that's it.

Though some are actually locked, so...

Shining One, Io Nitta, Daichi Shijima, Airi Ban, Hinako Kujou, Fumi Kanno, Makoto Sako

And all the other stuff is unlocked for some reason, unless I missed something

Our DeSu2 profiles are awful. My poor Fumi.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Well not sure but yeah if BoG protags have better feats, its better to use those instead of a massive low ball

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Better to use this for now.

 

[DMUA]

My poor Fumi.

We were not gentle nor sweet about it

At least they'll be 7-A likely 6-B I guess

 

[DMUA]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that Demi-Fiend should also scale to this.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

We were not gentle nor sweet about it

At least they'll be 7-A likely 6-B I guess

I’ll take that. Seriously gonna work on fixing DeSu2 first.

 

[Elizhaa]

At least they'll be 7-A likely 6-B I guess

I would be fine with those for those characters; more inputs should be needed, though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't mind low Tier 7 for Early Game, tbh. Stuff like Fuu-ki and the Elemental Demons do suggest a higher level than just 8-C.

But even then, this shouldn't retroactively scale to every demon like a Pixie and Jack Frost, it should be noted.

Also I don't like using Pele for the feat since she's a Goddess. Even if she's the Goddess of Volcanos and her Compendium Feat is only Tier 7, she is still a goddess and so is probably way higher on the demon power scale than that.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

But even then, this shouldn't retroactively scale to every demon like a Pixie and Jack Frost, it should be noted.

Why is that?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why is that?

They're noted to be weaker than even Early Game characters. BoG Demi-Fiend is much stronger than the Pixie he meets in the hospital. Pixies are also noted to be super weak in general so they shouldn't scale to elemental demons or mythical beasts.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

They're noted to be weaker than even Early Game characters. BoG Demi-Fiend is much stronger than the Pixie he meets in the hospital. Pixies are also noted to be super weak in general so they shouldn't scale to elemental demons or mythical beasts.

I get ya. So, what do they scale to? Iirc they should be capable of even minor damage.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I get ya. So, what do they scale to? Iirc they should be capable of even minor damage.

Pixie has a big rock moving feat. Also Lv. 1 Agi spells vaporizing targets.

I guess you could discuss if the "Decoherence Fields" scale to AP too but I think it's more just hax.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Nice, nice.

Me & Yvel were actually discussing Decoherence Fields being tied to AP, like you know how Demons are invisible, and significantly powerful Demons are invisible to other Demons? So given that DF’s are enhanced invisibility, and scale to all Demons, stands to reason that they should also scale to AP.

 

[DMUA]

Also I don't like using Pele for the feat since she's a Goddess. Even if she's the Goddess of Volcanos and her Compendium Feat is only Tier 7, she is still a goddess and so is probably way higher on the demon power scale than that.

I mean, she doesn't really have any higher feats, so I'm not sure we can put her way higher on the basis of being a goddess. The only indication of her power we have is being pretty low level in game and... nothing else, really.

In the same vein nothing really indicates Jack Frost and Pixie being drastically weaker to the point they'd have to go to 8-C.

Side note: Upon looking up the strongest earthquakes in the world, I ended up realizing that we did have a 9.5 at one point, which would be 6-B+, so, that's another thing.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Awesome, I agree.

 

[Ionliosite]

I completely agree with Matthew.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I personally disagree with it not scaling, as at the beginning of the game, these Demons can hurt and injure you, if not minuscule. They would get very minor scaling to it at the most, since they’re meant to be easy to get past in the beginning.

 

[DMUA]

I can understand not scaling it if there was a canonical demonstration of the power gap being massive, but, there kinda isn't

In fact, if anything, canon actually supports any ol' demon being dangerous, since one of the signs in Naraku warns about how even the most familiar of encounters can easily take a turn for the worst. It's not like there's any durability negation that would close the gap in this case, it's just a matter of getting jumped and blasted with magic. Sure, taking it to the extreme to scale every demon in the game to endgame stuff would be nonsense, but, in the case of just beginning of game, I think it's reasonable to put Pixie and the like on the same level, relatively.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Every single demon being Tier 7 is definitely ridiculous. There are demons which are like barely stronger than normal people.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

In fact, yeah, most Demons you get in the beginning of SMT games aren’t any Demons of actual notable recognition, but serve the purpose of being an early challenge to deal with these threats.

Can you elaborate on what Demons these are?

 

[Ionliosite]

The Slime, the result of a failed summon/fusion, seems like an obvious example. I doubt stuff like Knocker are much stronger.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The Slime, the result of a failed summon/fusion, seems like an obvious example. I doubt stuff like Knocker are much stronger.

Okay, but where’s the explicit evidence of it being weaker than a human?

 

[DMUA]

Those sound like a specific case where, indeed, the statement of them being dramatically weaker than a normal human would take priority over being around the same level as Pele.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Can you elaborate on what Demons these are?

The first demons you fight in SMT I are literally so weak that normal Yakuza and cops could kill them with guns.

 

[DMUA]

Don't even normal people have observation, even if not to the degree of a Messiah?

In general "Normal Human" gets pretty funky when it comes to SMT and how just about anyone with a gun and training can put up a reasonable fight against most demons up to a certain point

Or even just, without a gun when it comes to the Ring of Gaea.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yes, considering the fact that in DeSu2, you fit demons with your bare fists and live.

 

[Ionliosite]

Unless you're seriously arguing some random cop with no other powers is Tier 7, them beating Petra is very solid proof those aren't superhuman.