some resistances in dragon ball super

[AKM sama]

It's not just that if you are stronger than the opponent, you can resist his hax. Like Kep said, hax like Ginyu's Change and Mafuba have shown to work on stronger beings.

You also need to be at a certain level of power. Base Goku is obviously not on Sidra's level but he still resisted his EE because he was at a acertain level of power. And Golden Freeza who was at a higher level than Goku, did it more easily.

Power has shown to interact with a lot of hax in DB. But yes, these 2 cases are the most blatant ones.

 

[Amexim]

Which is why those should be the only ones that scale with AP resistance.

 

[InfiniteBlack123]

Consider something if you erase some one in the afterlife or erase the afterlife itself which one is the greater level of soil ****.


God level energy destroying the physical universe with a metaphysical afterlife.


Or God level Ap that destroyes the soul of a specific person, may or may not destroy the physical body completely

 

[HrishikeshM]

that is not related to the topic of this thread...

 

[AstralKing7]

this threaad sshould be closed actually

 

[AKM sama]

Don't think it's accomplished its purpose yet.

 

[AstralKing7]

It already has and others disagreed

 

[AKM sama]

You wanna read the thread again, people disagreed with Zenkai's statement of power always > hax.

Nobody disagreed with the OP by giving any legitimate reasons for disagreement. In fact I see many people in agreement.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

The point being is, the staff disagrees with this idea. Power =/= resistance to hax, in any circumstance, without proof. That's the rule. Kefla and Toppo aren't going to get resistance to Time Stop any time soon.

Besides, might I remind you, that Beerus also had no clue what was going on when Hit was using his ability in the tournament in spite of Beerus being stronger than either Goku or Hit. Only Whis and Vados seemed to recognize what was going on. Ergo, Resistance to Time Stop should still be considered unique to Jiren and Goku until otherwise proven.

 

[AKM sama]

"Power =/= resistance to hax, in any circumstance, without proof."

And there is plenty of proof in these 2 situations. Beerus, unlike Whis, obviously did not know of Hit's ability so he couldn't tell what was going on. He was also most likely suppressed. Also you forgot how Champa was like "Come at me bro" when he was threatening Hit. So unless you can show Beerus/Champa being affected by Hit's time stop in a fight, you can't prove otherwise.

The point stands, in DB it is repetitively shown that power is a major factor in resistance to time stop and existence erasure.

 

[AstralKing7]

Vegeta got caught in time stop so yea. This the point. Guldo was weaker than BOth Krillen and Gohan as well but they got caught in time stop

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

-snip-

Sooo, not knowing about Hit's ability and being "suppressed" somehow made Beerus susceptible to Time Stop, but when a suppressed Jiren who also had no previous experience with Time Stop--beyond what he might have saw from Hit previously during the earlier part of the ToP, when Hit fought Dyspo--resisted it easily makes sense?

The burden of proof is on you, here, and your proof is inconsistent.

I might agree with this about EE being resisted based on power, but even then, when Freeza resisted it the first time, he was using his ki control to condense the Hakaishin energy down into its projectile form. As for his showing against Toppo? Toppo's Hakaishin energy utterly overwhelmed his Golden Form and knocked him back down to Final Form Freeza, who still survived it, and yet we've seen enemies no stronger or weaker than Final Form Freeza get obliterated by Hakai (e.g. Present Zamasu, who was equal to post-RoF SS2 Goku, who should still be stronger than Final Form ToP Freeza).

As for Goku, he was clearly saved by Beerus, or else that Hakaishin energy would have killed him. That he resisted it for so long is clearly less an aspect of his AP/Durability and moreso an aspect of what ki can do to protect oneself.

And, for the record, that line you quoted of mine, I misworded it. It should have been typed out as "Power =/= resistance to hax, in any circumstance; resistances aren't granted without direct proof". This has been a consistent staff response to threads like these, such as the one I linked earlier involving Kefla resisting Time Stop.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I'm surprised this is still open.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't know what's really hard to understand here but let me simplify it.

• Goku started resisting time stop as soon as he used kaioken, which is nothing but an increase in ki. Hit did not even bother using his regular time stop on Jiren due to the same reason. He used a more effective technique which Jiren still resisted due to his power.

This directly proves that power plays a major role in resistance to time stop. You need to give a valid counter-proof if you want to prove otherwise. And Beerus not knowing or being suppressed doesn't do that for you, it's a non-sequitur. Since Beerus was not fighting Hit and Hit never used his time stop on Beerus. And to answer your question, it perfectly makes sense for Beerus to be heavily suppressed below Hit's level when he was leisurely watching the fight.

• About EE, the fact remains that they resisted it with varying difficulties based on their varying powers. The one with higher power resisted it more easily and it proves my point.

It doesn't matter if Goku was going to be exhausted eventually or if Freeza used ki control to condense the ball. I don't know why you used this straw man.

 

[Amexim]

Not only that but pointing out bad plotting inconsistencies doesn't really dissolve the greater point. Zeno was still "caught" in Hit's Time Manipulation when he used Time Skip too, and he is far beyond a Suppressed Jiren who has power that "surpasses time [manipulation]".

The fact that Zeno and the Gods got "caught in it" is just bad writing, and not indicative of any truth about the lore of the verse.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Not only that but pointing out bad plotting inconsistencies doesn't really dissolve the greater point. Zeno was still "caught" in Hit's Time Manipulation when he used Time Skip too, and he is far beyond a Suppressed Jiren who has power that "surpasses time [manipulation]".
The fact that Zeno and the Gods got "caught in it" is just bad writing, and not indicative of any truth about the lore of the verse.

And in that same vein, neither is there explicit proof that raw power alone beats Time Stop.

Unless you want to say that SSBlue Vegeta is weaker than Hit, how do you explain this (ignore the edited-in wording at the top): https://youtu.be/a0cwyK_p_VE?t=55 Goku clearly resists Hit's Time Stop in base form, after several tries. Unless you seriously want to believe that U6 Tournament SSB Vegeta, who was completely blind-sided by this technique, is weaker than Base Goku from the same tournament, then AP =/= resistance to hax.

 

[AKM sama]

@Amexim

There is no proof that Zeno or the GP were "caught" in his time skip. Hit didn't even use it on them.

@Korudo

"neither is there explicit proof that raw power alone beats Time Stop."

Did you read what I wrote or watched the show? Sorry if I am sounding rude, I assure you I am pretty chill but I think you just skipped my entire comment.

And yes, SSB Vegeta is weaker than Hit that's why he got beaten up that bad. And no, base Goku is not stronger than SSB Vegeta, neither did he resist time stop in base form. He used his battle precognition to predict Hit's moves 0.1 seconds ahead of time. He said so himself.

 

[HrishikeshM]

yes there is plenty of proof...i already listed them before but people dont read...

i dont know why irrelevant points about beerus and vegeta are being brought up which dont even matter in what i am trying to convey...

 

[PaChi2]

The whole thing about being stronger than your opponent always meaning you have a resistance to their haxes on DBZ is pure headcanon.

Exception 1: Spike the Devil Ma.

^

Why wasnt the thread closed after this again?

 

[Akreious]

^ Because people are contesting? Just because someone lays out a well structured argument doesnt mean we should just close a thread as if it's a mic drop

 

[AstralKing7]

it should be closed if people continue to ignore said arguments and continue pushing the upgrade when negatives are brought up

 

[AKM sama]

@Pachi

Because Kep's comment is an answer to Zenkai's comment. It doesn't bear any relevance with the main topic of this thread.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Kep's comment does have relevance. This is thread is trying to get people resistances based on levels of ki, but those examples call that very principle into question.

 

[AKM sama]

Resistance to only those hax which have shown to be affected by power, not all hax. It is not a principle which works for every hax in the world. Bringing up examples of other hax doesn't have relevance when this thread is only about EE and time stop.

 

[Son_Gandhi]

Facts by AKM Sama

 

[Eminiteable]

^^^^

 

[AstralKing7]

time stop has caught people stronger than the users tho thats the point. Vegeta got caught in GUldo's time stop

 

[Eminiteable]

Guldo is irrelevant

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

How is Guldo irrelveant?

 

[AstralKing7]

this is the problem with DB crts. Fans ignore things that have already happened and disproves their beliefts. They continue to push and push when the anime and manga dont agree with their statements

 

[Akreious]

this is the problem with DB crts. Fans ignore things that have already happened and disproves their beliefts. They continue to push and push when the anime and manga dont agree with their statements

Jesus christ whats with this site and its labelling? You literally just generalized an entire fanbase as "ignoring everything that have already happened and disproves their beliefs"

 

[Eminiteable]

Guldo's irrelevant as people are overpowering Hit's timestop through ki alone.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Which to an extent is kinda whats happening, no offense.

Also, this may be bad to bring up, but im going to call it out. Why are automatically assuming resistance to Hit's time stop is an actual resistance when it can also simply be a weakness in hit's time stop?

As in, the time stop is ineffective against people stronger than he is? Kinda like Guldos?

 

[SomebodyData]

@professor In the manga, it was an actual weakness. The anime never says so, so I doubt we should take it that way.

@Eminiteable the idea is that if Goku could do it via ki alone, then, with the gap between Guldo and say Vegeta, the same should have happened.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Which is still a completely valid and irrefutable reason here, tbh. Time Manipulation is Time Manipulation. Why would Time Stop work on Vegeta when it's used by the much weaker Guldo, but not work when it's used by someone much more powerful and experienced than Guldo against someone stronger?

It doesn't matter if it has a slightly different mechanic (Guldo holding his breath vs. Hit's muscle tension). Time Stop is Time Stop.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Guldo doesn't actually need to hold his breath, that's Anime only. In the manga, Guldo can just Time Stop for a little bit. However, the strain of doing this prevents him from attacking in the stopped time. In addition, he can only do this a few times before he can't anymore. In fact, that weakness made him go with the telekinesis to take out Krillin and Gohan. Guldo doesn't have a stated time limit, but he can only stop time for some moments seemingly.

 

[Eminiteable]

difference in ki between Hit and Goku was at least 10 times.

What's the difference for Guldo to Vegeta?

 

[AstralKing7]

a lot to the point where its crazy. I may make a CRT for GUldo's AP cause it doesnt make any sense that he is 5B when people like krillen and gohan are stronger than him and they really didnt get any stronger from the first arc till when they met Guldo. He shouldnt be scaling to 5b when people like Nappa are stronger than Gohan and Krillen who are stronger than Guldo

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

None of the Ginyu Force outside of Ginyu himself have an actual power level but various statement. If all the scaling and statements are correct it goes like this for full reference at the time:

Goku - 60,000. NOTE: This was estimated by Captain Ginyu and Jeice comments that Recoome didn't stand a chance against that.

Recoome/Jeice/Burter- Greater than 30,000 but lower than 60,000. Recoome can dominate Vegeta and Jeice/Burter are called comparable to him by Krillin.

Vegeta - Around 30,000

Gohan/Krillin - Above 10,000

Guldo- Much weaker than Gohan and Krillin.

Vegeta states that Guldo has low battle power but has potent supernatural abilities. Krillin notes that Guldo isn't very strong and wonders why he's even on the Ginyu Force.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

We don't accept Kaioken multipliers here, for the record.

Nor the Super Saiyan multipliers.