Some Quick Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Apocrypha Rider Feats

[Reppuzan]

I was looking over the Type-Moon wiki when a few interesting bits came up to me.

First, Rider (Medusa). She's currently rated at "At least City level" for taking on Excalibur Morgan and winning with the help of Shirou's Rho Aias. However, it should be noted that since Saber Alter has a virtually limitless supply of prana through Dark Sakura, Excalibur Morgan was practically supercharged, meaning that it leans towards the high end of Small Island level. In addition, the wiki mentions the fact that "ninety percent of Bellerophon's light was offset", implying that Rider tanked 90% of the blast. As a result, Bellerophon would be around Mountain level at the very least.

Next, Achilles. One of his Noble Phantasms, Akhilleus Cosmos, has him deploy a shield that represents "the world", projecting a minature world to phase all attacks into, even tanking Karna's EX Rank Vasavi Shakti. In addition, while it's never used this way in the novel, he can crush opponents by advancing forward with the shield. Assuming that it is indeed representative of the Earth (it is a Divine Construct made by the God of Blacksmiths, Hephaestus), it would be at the very least Planet level assuming he advances forward at the average pace of a soldier blocking attacks with a shield (which should be around 0.5 m/s) if we use the Earth's mass as the weight to convert his into KE.

Thoughts?

 

[Promestein]

This seems reasonable enough to me?

Following up on this, shouldn't Gilgamesh be "At least Planet level" with a fully-charged Ea? Karna's listed as Country level for his Anti-Country Noble Phantasm, and the mechanics of Ea make it pretty clear that it should be able to at least Planet level, along with it being the only Anti-World Noble Phantasm.

 

[Reppuzan]

I always wondered about that, though apparently it's Anti-World property is more about cutting through Gaia's Reality Marble than anything else (but given his other appearances it's highly likely that he'd be able to do so physically as well whe Enkidu, who weaponizes the Counter Force to nullify it) is taken into account.

 

[Promestein]

I feel like piercing Gaia's Reality Marble would be a Planet level feat anyways. But Gilgamesh should be able to at least match the likes of Achilles when he's somewhat serious, so...

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

I think Nasuverse in this wiki needs some revisions.

For example, Karna's Brahmastra kundala was equal to Balmung, which is Anti-Army Noble Phantasm.

 

[Reppuzan]

From what I've read, Balmung was used to temporarily offset Vasavi Shakti before Astolfo swooped in with Akhilleus Cosmos (borrowed from Achilles), so no comparison if my facts are correct (my info is second-hand since I don't have the novels).

Plus it's an Anti-Country Noble Phantasm vs an Anti-Army Noble Phantasm. Not much of a contest there.

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

In vol5 of Fate/Apocrypha, Karna and Sieg was completely equal in combat and sieg was able to block Brahmastra Kundala with his Balmung. Noble Phantasm category doesn't say its true destructive power anyway.

 

[Reppuzan]

If you say so (like I said, my info is second-hand), but you'll need a separate thread for that along with evidence (direct quotes) since this thread is about the Riders.

 

[Reppuzan]

Bumping this thread for some more input.

 

[KamiYasha]

Well, about Rider i see no problem... i think.

About Karna's EX Rank Vasavi Shakti... It's an Anti-Divine Noble Phantasm, so isn't that powerful against "non divine beings".

Certainly it is more powerful than anything on Fate/Apocrypha, but it is more useful against divine beings. The same as Gilgamesh's Enkidu Chains (EX Rank Anti-Divine Noble Phanthasm).

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

Vasavi shakti was able to destroy Achilles Cosmos even after it was weakend by Balmung blast. And Astolfo could lift the shield while it was activating.

So yeah, I my opinion, Planet level Rider makes no sense. I think at least City level via powerscailing is more proper for him. Maybe Small Island level is also good option.

 

[Yamatohime]

Actualy Achilles shield wieght not like the Planet... If you read it's description... It is miniature world that reproduce the world where Achilles lived... Basicaly the world around Greece. It's AP potency (conventional) is hard to calculate. But it's probably can be countered even without great durability... Just rare case where LIFTING STRENGHT really matter!

Additionaly only Achilles can use the shield pressure attack.

 

[Reppuzan]

But if it were just around Greece, then it would easily fall to a Country level Noble Phantasm, it is also implied that the reason why it was able to tank Vasavi Shakti since a "world without gods" is still a world.

Once again, my info is second-hand, so feel free to correct me.

 

[Yamatohime]

But if it were just around Greece, then it would easily fall to a Country level Noble Phantasm, it is also implied that the reason why it was able to tank Vasavi Shakti since a "world without gods" is still a world.
Once again, my info is second-hand, so feel free to correct me.

A world is the world - no matter how small it is. Any Reality Marble is THE WORLD in it own right. Even pathetic like White Len's one.

 

[Reppuzan]

Alright then, I've upgraded Medusa, but I guess Achilles is staying where he is, thanks.

 

[Yamatohime]

Alright then, I've upgraded Medusa, but I guess Achilles is staying where he is, thanks.

Levels (Anti-Personal, Anti-Army, Anty-Fortress and etc.) are based on number of targets it can affect. So yeah... Achilles should be disscussed further.

 

[Reppuzan]

I wrote Akhilleus Kosmos as having Small Planet level durability, as its only weakness is to Anti-World Noble Phantasms like Ea.

Do you think it needs a downgrade?

 

[Yamatohime]

I wrote Akhilleus Kosmos as having Small Planet level durability, as its only weakness is to Anti-World Noble Phantasms like Ea.

It didn't show such durability... And wasn't it destroyed by Karna's spear? Which is Anti-Personal?

EDIT: Found it... The spear failed because it... Was absorbed... =)

 

[Reppuzan]

It's apparently Anti-Divine, but Sieg survived despite the shield breaking, but I can't vouch for his myself.

Again, I've never personally read Apocrypha or even the original VN, but I just find the verse interesting, so I read second-hand info on it (such as the Type-Moon wiki). So I apologize if my statements are incorrect.

 

[KamiYasha]

Shoudln't be better if we add a key for Medusa?

You know, Fate/Stay Nigh =/= Heaven's feel

 

[Reppuzan]

The problem is that she sees so little fighting in the first two routes (aside from providing Saber under Shirou a considerable deal of trouble) that it's kind of hard to quantify her.

She gets an all-around bump in stats thanks to Sakura, but stats aren't everything in the Nasuverse if Fate/Extra is taken at face value (then again, it breaks most of the rules of the original war in the first place, so that might not be a good example).

 

[Alakabamm]

The Moon Cell has entirely different mechanics for how servants work. We probably shouldn't consider that and possibly Fate/Grand Order because that too involves a somewhat separate servant system.

 

[RegisNex1232]

For Achilles, at the very least you can scale it to Vasavi Shakti, since it did manage to block it before disappearing due to being one time use only for Astolfo (since he borrowed it from Achilles). I don't know if we can go any higher, considering we don't exactly have that many feats to scale it up. Maybe it can be a "At least Country level (tanked Vasavi Shakti), possibly Small Planet level (stated to represent the world, it's weaknesses are Anti-World NPs like Ea).

 

[Reppuzan]

The Moon Cell has entirely different mechanics for how servants work. We probably shouldn't consider that and possibly Fate/Grand Order because that too involves a somewhat separate servant system.

So for the record, I shouldn't put in any new images of previous Servants from Grand Order, right? I was thinking of doing that for Hans when he's fully upgraded, but after having this conversation I'm not so sure.

 

[KamiYasha]

Damn i was just about to do Scathach profile.

 

[Yamatohime]

Maybe it can be a "At least Country level (tanked Vasavi Shakti), possibly Small Planet level (stated to represent the world, it's weaknesses are Anti-World NPs like Ea).

Vasavi Shakti is Anti-Army Anti-Divine NP. It represent Ancients Greece World (At most Small Continent+ level) not entire World.

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

From what I know, Whole translations of Fate/Apocrypha aren't out.

Why don't you wait until it is finished?

As I metioned before, Brahmastra Kundala was equal to Balmung in terms of firepower and even though Vashavi is much stronger than that, Country level Karna makes no sense at all.

 

[Yamatohime]

As I metioned before, Brahmastra Kundala was equal to Balmung in terms of firepower and even though Vashavi is much stronger than that, Country level Karna makes no sense at all.

Karna's VS has variable firepower like Enkidu chain durability...

 

[Reppuzan]

But, Karna is one of the few Servants stated to hold a candle to Gilgamesh in power. It simply makes little sense to have one of the most powerful Servants downgraded to a level where he is only a little more powerful than King Arthur or Gawain when he's on a level far above them in overall power.

 

[Yamatohime]

But, Karna is one of the few Servants stated to hold a candle to Gilgamesh in power. It simply makes little sense to have one of the most powerful Servants downgraded to a level where he is only a little more powerful than King Arthur or Gawain when he's on a level far above them in overall power.

Karna can keep up with Gilgamesh because of Mystery level. Additionaly he posses OHKO spear that can kill Gil wo real problem.

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

Just no.

Gilgamesh is strongest among regular servants because of his gate of babylon not because of his pure firepower. Karna is nearly equal to Gilgamesh because he has Vashavi and his armor which are even Gate of Baylon doesn't possess.

Remeber that Gilgame is stongest among heroic sprits not Whole severvants. Even Scathach should be able to defeat Gill as she can toy with Karna. And Rider ozymandias is also at least on par with Gil as his feats surpass Gil's

 

[Aurugermil]

Entire Nasuverse is set in a multiverse but Fate GO becomes more important with how Grand Servant laid down the base of all the whole servants system in the entire Fate series, where the original purpose of the classes was for a ritual in which seven of the greatest Heroic Spirits were summoned by the Counter Force in order to prevent the extinction of mankind by a single "enemy" (theoretically Primate Murder whom Nasu confirmed will appear along with Dead Apostle in the game).

Nasu himself stated that F/GO is completely and entirely canon.

There is minor difference with how servants can be summoned.

Grail system pulls from the throne of heroes, while Mooncell pulls from its own archives to recreate heroes, since its recorded everything to ever happen on Earth and can perfectly recreate anything that ever existed.

Another minor difference is the stuff related to the gameplay.

Ascension: Under the FATE system, it is possible for Servants to undergo Ascension (Ú£èÕƒ║ÕåìÞç¿, Spirit Foundation Second Coming), a reform for the Servants to become stronger by coming closer to their "starting point of conception." It may even bring about a younger, more inexperienced form without reducing their power as a Servant because it is the "most fitting figure" for them.

Form change: Altered Morphology ( Õ¢óµàïÕñëÕîûÒâòÒé®Òâ╝ÒâáÒâüÒéºÒâ│Òé© , Keitai HenkaFōmu Chenji ) is an element present in Fate/Extella that allows for Servants to be strengthened in battle, altering their outward appearance and weapons.

Mythological Mystic Code: Within the Moon Cell, unlocking the human origin within a Servant grants them great power on the same scale as the Ten Crowns possessed by BB, granting them a Mythological Mystic Code (þÑ×Þ®▒þñ╝Þúà, Shinwa Reisō).

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

Also Karna is not stronger than King Arthur or Gawain. They're pretty much equal as Sieg was completely equal to Karna if not for Vashavi.

But I agree that Karna has some advantages.

 

[Reppuzan]

Also Karna is not stronger than King Arthur or Gawain. They're pretty much equal as Sieg was completely equal to Karna if not for Vashavi.
But I agree that Karna has some advantages.

Karna is so far the only Servant to be declared a "Gilgamesh-class Servant". This speaks volumes about his power alone.

Not to mention the fact that he was even more powerful in his original legend, and in all of his appearances he was heavily nerfed by the fact that he had mana issues (had Jinako as a Master in CCC, shared his prana supply with six other Servants under Shirou Tokisada and his bound and captured Master in Apocrypha).

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, I'm not sure. We haven't been told a lot about Chaldera yet, or at least we don't have the TLs yet right? They use a self-made servant summoning system, which may be better or worse than Fuyuki's.

Regardless, the Moon Cell is way different from either of those two so those two profiles types should be kept separate.

 

[Yamatohime]

Karna is so far the only Servant to be declared a "Gilgamesh-class Servant". This speaks volumes about his power alone.

Power of Servant is not their stats. It is their NPs. Karna has powerful NP that allow him match entire Gil's GoB. Ea is probably do not inlict Planet level damage but wiping out Gaia's Reality Marble is still deadly to others.

P.S.: Is it true that Li Shuwen defeated Bewulf and managed to battle Scathach for a little while?

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

Karna is so far the only Servant to be declared a "Gilgamesh-class Servant". This speaks volumes about his power alone.

Not to mention the fact that he was even more powerful in his original legend, and in all of his appearances he was heavily nerfed by the fact that he had mana issues (had Jinako as a Master in CCC, shared his prana supply with six other Servants under Shirou Tokisada and his bound and captured Master in Apocrypha).

In vol 5 of Fate/Apocrypha, Karna has inifinige mana supply thanks to holy grail but was equal to Sieg whom also has infinite mana supply.

As I said, Karna is on par with Gil because he has Noble Phantasms which even Gil doesn's possess. And Gill is strongest among regular servants because he can use Noble Phantasms which can be weak point to specific servants. Without it, he is pretty much equal to other heroic spirits.

 

[Alakabamm]

Scathach supposedly had 90% of her organs missing at that point, courtesy of Lancer Alter.

 

[Reppuzan]

Do remember that Karna is ridiculously powerful character in his original legend, having been lent weapons that could reach Hyperversal proportions. Country level is far from being unbelievable.

But if you want to do a content revision, post your own thread.

This is a thread about Rider.

 

[PhantasmalGreatsword]

Power of Servant is not their stats. It is their NPs. Karna has powerful NP that allow him match entire Gil's GoB. Ea is probably do not inlict Planet level damage but wiping out Gaia's Reality Marble is still deadly to others.

P.S.: Is it true that Li Shuwen defeated Bewulf and managed to battle Scathach for a little while?

Yep. Pure strength versus martial art.