Some Problems With Darkseid's Page

[Hykuu]

"insert intro

Immortality Type 4 - After truly dying, Darkseid resurrected himself from Orion's body

Its stated throughout the comic this was simply due to Darkseid utilizing the source of the beast , which was his connection to both Darkseid and The Source ,as it was his plan all along to corrupt the Source, make Orion unleash The Source of the Beast (In order for him to Ressurect) and come back

"Highfather stated he was capable of destroying Takio, who also admittedDarkseid was more powerful than he was"

Takion has been consistently shown to be One with the Source throughout his appearances, Directly stated to be here in this sca,and he explains how the source flows where he goes and how due to his nature as one with the source, the quantum field, the speed force and such are all corrupted by his mere existence, As they all are derived from the Source.

The problem here is simple, Takion is one with the source, and the source is obviously 1-A, why are we using this as low multiversal? I do believe this is just inconsistent for an avatar darkseid, regardless of how many feats he's shown scaling to takion, throughout the comics he was bound by the Wall He also explains how even with the full ALE he would still be inferior to the Source and wouldn't have enough power to Control it, therefore he needed to corrupt it first.

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/1NhXvwndXpdRKH3dv034Oj_hNXZaEAIIcmCWoKIV50t9fjJvgW9lz-fXX80H0C1BXstfvYNCUBs9=s1600)

Etc. Even by other feats, he should be inferior to Takion, and if we do scale him to Takion we would get Outerversal Regardless.

"

• His anger scared the Lords of Cha
  
  All we saw during that same comic is that he makes a deal with the lords of chaos and order, the lords of chaos respect him due to considering him a brother, and that the lords of order do not even fear him.

The worst part during this whole ordeal is this.

Eric (Who was Half of Doctor Fate , Who in turn is weaker to an actual Nabu) , was literally DYING before confronting Darkseid. Even then, he was afraid of getting killed by this doctor fate , or atleast bodied,and Linda then comes in and also pretty much beats him before getting distracted.Eric and Linda merging their power of Love also knocked down Darkseid and forced him to retreat.

Even if this was Deesad, as retconned later, both feats are still within the same comic and therfore the scaling still applies (J.M pretty clearly intended it to be Darkseid)

"

• Omega Beams were able to cause the Spectre (Hal Jordan) pain before he began powering through them
  
  Out of context much? This was In issue 19, 11 issues after Spectre merged with the Logoz, literally a 1-A outlier in disguise, lmao.
  
  I Do personally disagree with using him vs Anti Monitor as a feat as The Anti Monitor had really good feats such as being the catalyst of convergence in the comic, which is way above anything any of the darkseid avatars have shown regardless.

This should be it for now, its 1 AM and I can't be bothered thinking of anything else I disagree with.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Issues I have with your lines of reasoning:

• The Source of the Beast is part of Orion, it's not something that only appeared when Orion killed Darkseid. It's still an example of Type 4 Immortality, it's just very specific. The point of that fight and getting Orion to go Beast mode was to taint the Source with patricide, not to resurrect himself (he wasn't even dead at the start, so this interpretation doesn't logically follow).

• Takion's entire run and all of Byrne's Fourth World run make it abundantly clear Takion is not 1-A, not channeling the energy of the entire Source, and not even close to omnipotent. Being one with it is used in the context of being connected to it and channeling its energy, he's in no way equal to the entire Source. It's in his head and he can ask it questions, as well as channel Source energy for whatever he needs.

• The main driving conflict of Takion's solo run was that Darkseid created Stayne from his hand (channeling energy into Takion's girlfriend in order to change her) in much the same way Highfather created Takion, you ignored that part.

• Regarding the Lords of Chaos, you have to stretch pretty hard to look at the last page in the album and not think he intimidated the Lords into backing off. And obviously he made a deal, that was his whole point in being there.

• The part about the Fates was already brought up. It was retconned by a later writer, it doesn't matter all that much what DeMatteis originally thought. The entire reason Byrne retconned the fight was because the scaling in it was pure PIS.

• Omega Beams in almost every Pre-Flashpoint instance are hax, not raw AP. And plus the very next issue makes it fairly obvious he's not actively channeling the Logoz all the time. He doesn't realize one of the other selves called Phantom Stranger and he talks about fortifying his place's defenses.

• Darkseid's 4-B doesn't use Anti-Monitor to scale, if you read the profile. In the feat tabber, it is specifically listed as [After power-up] because Mr. Miracle stated Darkseid got an unknown amp before the events of Darkseid War.

One last (minor) thing: Post-Flashpoint Darkseid is an emanation, not an avatar. Semantics, I know, but somehow incorrect terminology has become completely widespread in online forums about that.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Eh to be fair The Spectre's power does depend on it's host, for example when Asmodel became The Spectre he prevented guys like Highfather (who's comparable to Darkseid), Zeus and the like from attempting to interfere in his affairs (https://m.imgur.com/NRpKkcp).

Not saying it debunks Darkseid hurting The Spectre, but it should be said that his power varies

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

The full emanation of Highfather was already "killed" and residing in the Source at that point; what you see there is an avatar. That's also sealing hax, not AP, although that point isn't relevant here.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I'm just saying that The Spectre varies when sometimes he's a jobber and other times he's a beast.

Speaking of The Spectre, shouldn't his Hal Jordan key have the feat where he killed Dakrseid's emanation? It seems fine to me and it's consistent with the other stuff he's done (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...hots_darkseid_and_makes_planets_shudder_1.jpg, https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...hots_darkseid_and_makes_planets_shudder_2.jpg)

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Probably. Spectre's page still needs some work imo

 

[Hykuu]

""

• The Source of the Beast is part of Orion, it's not something that only appeared when Orion killed Darkseid. It's still an example of Type 4 Immortality, it's just very specific. The point of that fight and getting Orion to go Beast mode was to taint the Source with patricide, not to resurrect himself (he wasn't even dead at the start, so this interpretation doesn't logically follow)."
  
  He was dead? Orion tore his heart out, After Darkseid showed him the source of the beast, and he utilized the source of the beast, which is his connection to darkseid and the source in order to basically become half of orion's body and ressurect, and due to how specific it is its basically not even combat applicable.
  
  "
• Takion's entire run and all of Byrne's Fourth World run make it abundantly clear Takion is not 1-A, not channeling the energy of the entire Source, and not even close to omnipotent. Being one with it is used in the context of being connected to it and channeling its energy, he's in no way equal to the entire Source. It's in his head and he can ask it questions, as well as channel Source energy for whatever he needs."
  
  "
• Regarding the Lords of Chaos, you have to stretch pretty hard to look at the last page in the album and not think he intimidated the Lords into backing off. And obviously he made a deal, that was his whole point in being there.
• 
  He literally went the source and explained hes one with it, an Old god says he is of the source, The Source didn't attack him due to his nature as being one with it, etc. we see a direct difference in statements when characters say "connection to the source" and directly being one with it, because highfather literally joined the source and merged with it after death, their connections are far more than just channeling portions of the source.
  
  "
• The main driving conflict of Takion's solo run was that Darkseid created Stayne from his hand (channeling energy into Takion's girlfriend in order to change her) in much the same way Highfather created Takion, you ignored that part."
  
  I didn't Ignore it, I said that its just a 1-A feat lol
  
  "
• Regarding the Lords of Chaos, you have to stretch pretty hard to look at the last page in the album and not think he intimidated the Lords into backing off. And obviously he made a deal, that was his whole point in being there."
  
  Again, they view him as a brother, they literally show that they wouldn't dare disrespect a brother, and they literally continue interrupting him later on, lmfao. Even the lords of order who are equal with the lords of chaos explain that they don't fear nor respect darkseid at all. And via feats that darkseid is below the lords of order anyway.
  
  You aren't getting my point, if we are using feats from the same comic, I can show you that its contradicted within the same comic, if a later writer retcons it so that its desaad, thats fine, that just means you shouldn't use the dr fate feat to scale in general. Nothing wrong with using it within the comic.
  
  "
• Omega Beams in almost every Pre-Flashpoint instance are hax, not raw AP. And plus the very next issue makes it fairly obvious he's not actively channeling the Logoz all the time. He doesn't realize one of the other selves called Phantom Stranger and he talks about fortifying his place's defenses."
  
  Then you would have to objectively prove they are 1A, and he literally became the Logoz itself, its a part of his being. even Jim corrigan Spectre should be superior to virtually any emanation of darkseid regardless. Like, the profile it is lists his own being as 1-A anyway.
  
  "
• Darkseid's 4-B doesn't use Anti-Monitor to scale, if you read the profile. In the feat tabber, it is specifically listed as [After power-up] because Mr. Miracle stated Darkseid got an unknown amp before the events of Darkseid War."
  
  k
  
  "One last (minor) thing: Post-Flashpoint Darkseid is an emanation, not an avatar. Semantics, I know, but somehow incorrect terminology has become completely widespread in online forums about that."
  
  same thing in my eyes, even if it really isn't you still get what I am saying, anyways, dm me on discord, typing here is killing me inside due to the terrible format and lag

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

I'll respond again here so the points are rebutted in the thread, but I'm fine if you want to take the convo to discord. The lag issue is pretty apparent.

• I don't think you followed my point the way I meant it to. In the OP, you stated that Darkseid's plan all along was to corrupt the Source and make Orion release the Source of the Beast so he can come back. The way you worded that makes it seem like Darkseid started off dead and was in the Source (where gods go when they die), and planned for Orion to unleash the Beast so he could then resurrect. My point was that the events as you worded them don't make sense.

• Anyway, obviously it's not combat applicable unless Orion is around, but what's your point? This site's main purpose is indexing, not battleboarding.

• Again, read literally any conflict Takion is involved in, rather than taking things out of context of the run to stretch a character's power level as far as it can go. Nothing about Takion is 1-A, that's pure wank.

• Highfather joined with the Source because he died in it, and gods go to the Source when they die. And he didn't literally become one with it (as in, become the Source itself), he's just in there now. Again, context matters because without it the characters are wankable to the extreme.

• First, I don't know why you're bringing up the conversation they have where the Lords mildly interrupt Darkseid like that one annoying friend, or that they call him brother. Everything was calm at that point. The entire point here that you want to ignore is that Darkseid, the instant a battle was about to break out between the Lords of Order and Chaos, shouted and made the Lords of Chaos quickly withdraw. If you can look at that panel (the quickness with which they drew back) and not see intimidation, I don't know what to tell you. Go study behavior? Lol

• I'm gonna uno reverse that on you and say it's you who isn't getting my point. The later writer retconned that specific part of DeMatteis' run because it didn't make sense and contradicted the more consistent part of it. Ignoring non-retconned parts of a run because one specific part was retconned is a terrible idea.

• You're ignoring what I said. Literally the next issues makes it clear he's not always having that connection active (as does Green Lantern: Rebirth btw). Using Spectre for scaling after learning about the Logoz would require proving he was actually 1-A at that point in time, due to how inconsistent it is. Spectre's profile's 1-A key is for when he's connected, not for any time after the issue where he learned to connect.

• It's not the same thing at all. Avatars refer to a specific ability, where Darkseid and Highfather use a portion of their energy to create a duplicate with less power.