Some Missing stuff from Magi Part 2 Magi/David/Solomon and Kouen Ren and Sinbad

[-BANLK-]

Hakuryuu, despite being a "Fallen" was tricked by an illusion. Also if all these fallen characters get the resistances as mentioned in the op, then Hakuryuu's belial is practically shit against any fallen character.

 

[Tincan123]

@Wokistan yes.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that BANLK makes sense.

 

[Tincan123]

To be fair that isnt what makes Belial a scary Djinn.

Also Hakuryuu became "Fallen" durning Belial illusio.

 

[-BANLK-]

Yup, he could still see the illusion after being fallen. Your point?

 

[Tincan123]

You got it wrong. you state: Hakuryuu, despite being a "Fallen" was tricked by an illusio which is incorrect because the illusion was already cast upon him when he and Judar enter the dungeo. it's after Hakuryuu became Fallen that the illusion became useless.

Also i agree with you that the Gods instead of having EE or Void Manipulation it should be Transmutation

 

[-BANLK-]

it's after Hakuryuu became Fallen that the illusion became useless.

Can you elaborate how it was useless? Because it is pretty clear that even after falling he could still see the illusion which means that the illusion magic still affected him.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't remember Zepar ever being used on Aladdin, Alibaba or any of the Fallen.

Belial's scythe BFRs bits of the soul entirely. It essentially just moves the soul somewhere else rather than actually damaging or controlling it.

Hakuryuu also kinda broke out of the illusion a literal page after falling.

Also you could argue that because Belial's illusion had already entered Hakuryuu's mind prior to him falling, it was still there after he fell. Magic entering the mind of the target seems to be how most mind manip in the series is done, e.g. Zepar sticks a bit of Sinbad's magic energy in the target's mind to control it, so having the magic already being in his mind after he separates from the great flow would explain why he still sees the illusion.

Or you could just call it an outlier / PIS.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The scan for Aladdin's fate manipulation is only saying what Aladdin could do if he went to the sacred palace and took control of it.

I guess you could have a Low 2-C with prep Aladdin if you really wanted, but it's completely out of character

 

[Tincan123]

@Monarch Laciel Zepar was used on Aladdi

The sinbad stuff

@-BANLK- I shouldt have said useless my bad because it also works on members of Al-thame

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

To be fair, that's god Sinbad concentrating on Aladdin specifically, and even then all he's doing is showing him an illusion.

 

[-BANLK-]

@Mon Resistance to soul manipulation would also prevent bfr of soul and these "Fallen" characters were able to resist Sacred Palace's magic, which is obviously above belial's magic. You still haven't answered why Hakuryuu was able to see an illusion if he has resistance to mind manipulation, also he did not break any illusion (There is no mention of it), Belial just came up to confront him. This is not PIS or outlier.

 

[-BANLK-]

@-BANLK- I shouldt have said useless my bad because it also works on members of Al-thame

Again being "Fallen" did not help these fellas from mind manipulation.

 

[Tincan123]

-BANLK- that was not meant a an argument but more as a agreement. But do note that Judar does state that these guys are easier to controll because their made out of their pure will.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No, soul resistance does not automatically protect against literally everything related to the soul. A person resisting biological and matter hax doesn't help them against being teleported somewhere, even though all of those things are affecting their body. Being protected against mind control doesn't stop your mind being teleported out of your body.

Hakuryuu did break out of the illusion. He killed the illusion of his sister, then confronted Belial.

 

[-BANLK-]

@Tincan I was saying that to Monarch actually.

 

[-BANLK-]

Hakuryuu did break out of the illusion. He killed the illusion of his sister, then confronted Belial.

He only killed an illusion of his sister (Which means the illusion magic was still in effect, refer my previous comment), there is no mention of him breaking out of illusion. If you have scans stating otherwise, show it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

https://www.***********.net/magi/244/15

Kills his sister in the illusion, says he's not stopping with just the illusion

Next panel

https://www.***********.net/magi/244/16

Illusion is shattering apart around him as he and Judar look down to face Belial

I think it's pretty clear that he broke out.

 

[-BANLK-]

Next panel

https://www.***********.net/magi/244/16

Illusion is shattering apart around him as he and Judar look down to face Belial

I think it's pretty clear that he broke out.

Why do you assume that the shattered pieces are part of a supposed broken illusion when it can just be any normal concrete (Belial's illusion is mind based, it does not affect environment iirc). Also how in any logical scenario can a guy with mind manipulation resistance (Strong enough to resist sacred palace magic) see an illusion (Belial's comparatively weaker mind magic)?

 

[Tincan123]

@-BANLK- well its not that they resist sacred palace magic but they were Unaffected by it. Same thing goes for Fallen into Depravity. However this does mean that some Higher God controls their Destiny.

 

[-BANLK-]

@Tincan If you knew that they were uneffected by SP (Due to inverse logic) then why did you even bring up all those resistances in the crt? Honestly the resistances for "Fallen" characters mentioned in the op does not make sense narrative wise.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I already gave a perfectly feasible explanation - the magic Belial used to create the illusion was already in Hakuryuu's mind when he fell into depravity, and falling didn't automatically remove it.

And why do you assume Belial let Hakyruu out of the illusion when it would have been far more effective a method to defeat him to just keep him in the illusion?

 

[-BANLK-]

the magic Belial used to create the illusion was already in Hakuryuu's mind when he fell into depravity, and falling didn't automatically remove it.

This is your assumption, also what about all those "Fallen" Al Thamen people who got mind manipulated by Hakuryuu?

 

[-BANLK-]

And why do you assume Belial let Hakyruu out of the illusion when it would have been far more effective a method to defeat him to just keep him in the illusion?

Bad writting.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here?

 

[Tincan123]

@-BANLK- These characters were missing the resistances to Sacred Place.

And as for this: The resistances for "Fallen" characters mentioned in the op does not make sense narrative wise.

it does make sense because the Black Ruhk isnt part of the Great Flow this is multiple time state trough out the serie.

 

[-BANLK-]

it does make sense because the Black Ruhk isnt part of the Great Flow this is multiple time state trough out the serie.

Lol no. The main enemy of djinns were the Al Thamen and everyone in Al Thamen had black rukh. By your logic Belial and Zephar can't do shit against these people cause of the resistances from their "Fallen" status.

 

[Tincan123]

I already state this before: Note that Judar does state that these guys are easier to control because their made out of their pure will.

Even Arba state that if she only used a Doll she wouldt be able to used the same strenght that she posessed in Alma Torra.

Meaning these guys are far weaker then they used to be.

 

[-BANLK-]

I already state this before: Note that Judar does state that these guys are easier to control because their made out of their pure will.

"Easier to control", which means that fallen characters can be mind controlled. Ok now explain how Hakuryuu was able to see an illusion after getting black rukh, I am certain he was not weak.

 

[Tincan123]

Durning Belial or Durning Sinbad?

 

[-BANLK-]

Belial one.

 

[Tincan123]

I already gave a perfectly feasible explanation - the magic Belial used to create the illusion was already in Hakuryuu's mind when he fell into depravity, and falling didn't automatically remove it.

And why do you assume Belial let Hakyruu out of the illusion when it would have been far more effective a method to defeat him to just keep him in the illusion?

Pretty much this.

 

[Tincan123]

Edit @-BANLK- I also just like to move on with the Uncertain stuff because this needs its on topic either a Discussion or Downgrade.

You are also correct because the Sacred Place doesnt Manipulate Minds but it Manipulates the Will of everything so right now all Magi Gods have Mind Manipualtion which is incorrect when it should be Willpower Manipulation. This also goes for the resistance to it which is now Mind Manipulation but it should Will Power manipulation.

 

[-BANLK-]

You are also correct because the Sacred Place doesnt Manipulate Minds but it Manipulates the Will of everything so right now all Magi Gods have Mind Manipualtion which is incorrect when it should be Willpower Manipulation. This also goes for the resistance to it which is now Mind Manipulation but it should Will Power manipulation.

Actually that's mind manipulation, just because it has the word "Will" in it, does not make it willpower manipulation.

 

[Tincan123]

Then were gonne have your whole Belial argument and it will get us nowhere.

 

[-BANLK-]

Well that's what crt is for and the resistances stuff has already been debunked, so that's out of the way.

 

[Tincan123]

I wouldt say Debunked because this is still a fact:well its not that they resist sacred palace magic but they were Unaffected by it. Same thing goes for Fallen into Depravity. However this does mean that some Higher God controls their Destiny. I would love to hear something from you that we can both agree on.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Also the reason Judar and Hakuryuu could memory hax Al Thamen is pretty simple - Judar and Hakuryuu were fallen too. In other words, their flows of (black) ruhk were on the same wavelength with each other, not separate as they were from the great flow.

 

[-BANLK-]

Also the reason Judar and Hakuryuu could memory hax Al Thamen is pretty simple - Judar and Hakuryuu were fallen too. In other words, their flows of (black) ruhk were on the same wavelength with each other, not separate as they were from the great flow.

Again assumptions. By your logic they would have a hard time mind manipulating someone with white rukh, cause of different "Wavelength".

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Given that the mind hax used by Hakuryuu is primarily used by sticking physical seeds in the opponent's head, or by outright BFRing parts of their soul, those forms of mind manipulation would not be limited by being part of a separate flow.

And pretty much all your conclusions are assumptions too.