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Oh, well I looked at a wiki and it just says he basically taught her to purify dark spirts and all that. So was the spurt cannon made out of negative spirit energy?
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Some Ideas For Potential Avatar Revisions
- Thread starter PlozAlcachaz
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No, just ordinary spirit energy. Kuviras Cannon was drawing on it from spirit vines.
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Also, why are we discussing Korras 7-B feat again?
Book 2, 3 and 4 Avatar State Korra is gonna become 6-C when this is done.
Book 2, 3 and 4 Avatar State Korra is gonna become 6-C when this is done.
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Oh ok, then shouldn’t all her other spirit bending(minus the purifying) scale to aang then?
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I’m assuming that is because of scaling from vaatu right?
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Not just that, but from Raava (in her prime state).
Full Powered Raava and Vaatu (which only Korra and Unalaq possess) will be scaling above the moon and ocean spirits, who have 6-C feats.
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What 6-c feats do the ocean and moon spirts have?
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Avatar - Ocean Spirit, take me by the hand, take me to the land
vsbattles.fandom.com
And that's along with the fact that the ocean spirit individually controls the worlds oceans.
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Hmm ok but shouldn’t all the Avaters on site be upgraded to 6-c in there Avater states seeing as there able to beat vaatu who scales above almost all spirts(minus raava)Avatar - Ocean Spirit, take me by the hand, take me to the land
And that's along with the fact that the ocean spirit individually controls the worlds oceans.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Controlling the World's oceans is High 6-A though, this is also part of the reasoning why Kyogre and Lapis are High 6-AAvatar - Ocean Spirit, take me by the hand, take me to the land
And that's along with the fact that the ocean spirit individually controls the worlds oceans.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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The calc also wasn't really evaluated, so I would like that this calc will be re-calced, and use the accepted values there
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No. Raava and Vaatu only scale above the Moon/Ocean spirits when in their true powered states. Raava was severely depowered when she fused with Wan to become the first Avatar due to Vaatus influence over the dark spirits during Harmonic Convergence, so pretty much every avatar from Wan all the way to Aang get their Avatar States empowered by a weakened Raava, who's strength let them perform 7-B feats. Korra's the only existing Avatar who fuses with a fully powered Raava as she regains her lost strength when revived during the next Harmonic Convergence in Book 2.
So Raava will be getting 2 keys. A weakened 7-B key and a full powered 6-C key. Korra's Avatar State from Book 2 onward will be scaling to Raava's full powered key. Every other Avatar in their Avatar State keeps their 7-B ratings by scaling to Raava's weakened key.
Nah, that's apparently not supposed to be High 6-A according to what was said earlier in this thread. A site wide thread to change that was supposed to be made actually, but was forgotten since this was around the time that the forum was still new and revisions like that weren't allowed yet. So characters who are High 6-A just strictly for controlling oceans will most likely need to get revised.
That said, yeah the calc for the ocean spirit should be re-evaluated, but as it stands, he has a 6-C tier possibly in grasp at the very least.
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Raava still caused environmental destruction on a global scale right after coming out of his prison and korra pretty much beat him in here Avater state just like wan and why are the Avaters still just city lvl when kuruk litterly destroyed an entire island in his Avater state.
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In fact wasn’t raava getting stronger during wan’s era so wouldn’t he technically surpass his regular base(true power) power as well?
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When was this?
You mean Vaatu? If so, Korra didn't use the Avatar State to do this. She was her Giant Spirit form when using the Tree of Time.
More context is needed since we know nothing of the size of those islands. At best its just more supporting evidence for the tier 7 ratings.
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What? No....the opposite was happening. She was getting weaker.
Vaatu was increasing his dark influence over spirits all over the world after Wan accidentally freed him, turning them into dark spirits and making him stronger. Raava was having the opposite effect and was getting weaker due to light fading away. And because of that, she gets extremely depowered in Wan's era.
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My bad
I mean vaatu.
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This isn't a feat for Vaatu, this was Harmonic Convergence starting to unfold and him using it's released spiritual energy to break Wan's seal.
Ah this. This would be presented as an outlier or PIS then since Raava narratively gotten far weaker than she was in her prime, and during Wan's era, was mostly getting stomped by Vaatu along with Wan. It makes little sense for Korra to fight against Unalaq and Vaatu on the same footing with Raava still being that weak.
And Unalaq defeated her and easily destroyed Raava afterwards anyway, making it even more stupid. So it should just be ignored.
Yeah. Islands can be big or small depending on the given size, which we don't have here for them. So they can't warrant anything better than 7-B.
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Oh ok
ya until they basically created the Avater state and beat vaatu. Considering it seems that having a Avater as there host seems to be much stronger then there regular forms it makes sense that dark unalaq beat korra in her Avater state
Ok
Gilad_Hyperstar
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The Avatar state is basically a fusion between Raava and the host human, which is why it's much stronger than just the Spirit alone
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Yeah but the problem is that, when Wan fought him, he was getting rag dolled by Vaatu. Even with Raava helping him.
They only managed to fight back and seal him away in time when using the joined spirit energy released by the portals during harmonic convergence.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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That is because Raava was way too weak to help Wan against Vaatu, but when the Avatar state fused them together, then they stomped Vaatu.
Before Wan used Raava's powers, but they were one only after they permanently merged (well, until the next harmonic convergence)
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Yeah but im not seeing what much of a difference the AS makes. Raava entering Wan is basically the same thing, the only difference is the boost doesn't last permanently. Wan would still be getting her energy joined with his.
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Ya for like a second verses the avatar state he has access to her powers at all time
Gilad_Hyperstar
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How is a weakened Raava is equal to Avatar state avatars? They're pretty demonstrably far superior to her
Also, Raava and Vaatu are both the strongest spirits in the verse, so:
Avatar state Avatars >>> Vaatu = Raava >> All other spirits (which includes Ocean and Moon spirits)
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? What? Weakened Raava is equal to their Avatar States because they use her power for their Avatar States.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Because Avatar state Wan stomped Vaatu, who is far superior to weakened Raava. Avatar State Korra also stomped Vaatu 10,000 years later, and would've sealed him again if it wasn't for Unalaq catching her off guard and shortly after fusing with Vaatu
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Outliers /PIS, as said before.
For one, both Wan and Korra (at these times) were using weakened Raava's power for their Avatar States. There's literally no reason for them to be "superior" to Raava when the strength of their Avatar States come from her.
Secondly, I'd hardly consider these stomp matches, like at all. Wan was getting rag dolled by Vaatu majority of that fight, even when Raava gave him power. They needed Harmonic Convergences power to be able to actually fight back, and it was only for a few seconds before sealing him. On top of that, Wan's attacks hardly did damage and were just staggering Vaatu so he could be sealed. The same goes more or less for Korra. Vaatu was able to restrain her for quite some time, he could harm her with his dark spirit beams, and Korras AS attacks just staggered Vaatu enough for him to be sealed (only to fail because of Unalaq).
And thirdly, most of all, this narratively makes no sense when these Avatars, at those times, were using the power of Raava in a weakened state who's far far inferior to Vaatu, especially one who became much stronger than he is normally. His influence over the dark spirits made him stronger and upset the light/darkness relationship to weaken Raava in return. There's no legitimate reason why they would be on his level at those points realistically and should be dismissed as PIS feats for the sake of the plot demanding them to hold their own against the main enemy.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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How are they PIS exactly? Both of these are consistent, and the merger from the harmonic convergence has clearly made them much stronger and you can't deny that. You can't also deny that Korra quickly overpowered Vaatu in the Avatar state and sealed him, only for it to be interruped by Unalaq
Also, if Vaatu wouldn't need to fuse with Unalaq to combat her, then why they did it? If Vaatu could've beaten Korra on his own, he wouldn't need Unalaq, but he couldn't beat her, and Korra also easily escaped from his restraints in the Avatar state. Also, Wan quickly sealed him and incapped him the moment he fused with Raava, but not before blitzing him and stomping him effortlessly. What happened before he fused doesn't matter since he wasn't the Avatar before then, he was simply using her power, though not the full extent of it since without the merger, the presence of her in his body would've killed him
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Because there is nothing explicitly confirming Harmonic Convergence grants such a drastic boost like your suggesting it is, and what's consistent with 2 showings that aren't even as great as your trying to make them out to be?
Its PIS from the simple fact that a weakened Raava's power should be absolutely nothing compared to a full powered Vaatu, much less an amped Vaatu who got even stronger via influencing the dark spirits. But of course, the plot demands Wan (and Korra) to not be instantly stomped in order to resolve the conflict.
I can, for as I did in the previous response and will do so again. A quick few second "overpowering" that hardly damaged Vaatu is not consistent scaling, especially when this Raava's power should be blatant fodder compared to this Vaatu. And gets easily destroyed afterwards anyway by simple water bending smacks from Unalaq.
You do realize this was not the reason why the fused in the first place, right? Unalaq and Vaatu fused so Unalaq would become the new Avatar and achieve 10,000 years of darkness as a Dark Avatar in control. Absolutely nothing said Vaatu needed to fuse with Unalaq in order to defeat Korra.
And just prior was easily blasted by a single dark spirit beam from Vaatu.
Stop over-exaggerating the fight as more than what it actually was. It was not a stomp, or an "effortless stomp". Wan and Raava were getting wrecked, fused with Harmonic Convergence, fought Vaatu again for a matter of seconds and then imprisoned him in the elemental sphere seal. This is not effortless at all.
Him not being the avatar doesn't matter as you are still missing the main point that Raava and Wan's power was still used in tandem against Vaatu. Harmonic Convergence did nothing for them but make it so Raava's boost becomes permanent instead of threatening Wan's life with merging their energies.
And even with her boost, Vaatu overpowered him incredibly easily, tossing him around like nothing and was winning for majority of that entire battle.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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1. Feats > Statements. We don't need a statement about how their power grew because we clearly see it in the matches. You can't deny that Wan easily defeated Vaatu after he fused with Raava. That's a fact and it is shown right in the video
2. And this is why Wan couldn't beat him before he turned into the Avatar. Vaatu was much stronger than Raava at that point so simply combining the powers doesn't work
3. Both Wan and Korra blitzed Vaatu and quickly sealed him in their Avatar states. This is clearly shown that they became much stronger even if they never stated it directly.
4. Fair point
5. And she came out just fine and later easily defeated Vaatu. That beam didn't really damaged her either
6. Their powers were definitely not used in tandem. When she just entered his body, his power while she's in him was unstable and he couldn't hold her for long as he'll be killed if it'll hold her for too long
7. Again, most of the battle don't matter, since the moment they fused, they easily turned the tides and won. It was very clear Wan became much stronger than he was before and that was shown in the video. The Avatar state is what happened to Wan post merging with Raava, which also scales to Korra, who also tanked his spirit beam without any issue and continued to easily seal him afterwards. Also, Korra was going on and off the Avatar state during the battle, and Korra was out of the Avatar state when she got blasted by him
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Or it's just as easily an inconsistency that does not fit in the context or narrative of the series and is to be disregarded for the reasons I laid out. Sealing an opponent is not defeating them whatsoever and the fact that a weakened Raava's power isn't being completely incomparable to a very amped Vaatu is a blatant inconsistency.
If a normal powered Raava struggles to beat a normal powered Vaatu, a weakened Raava not getting instantly floored against a largely amped Vaatu is utter nonsense.
Thanks for admitting my point. Combining their power together was a far cry away from being on Vaatu's level, so an avatar state that comes from a weakened Raava should absolutely not be scaling to the former. It's inconsistent for them.
See above. And blitzing has nothing to do with them having comparable power.
It knocked her flat on her ass and was grunting from being in pain, so that says otherwise. She then got restrained for a while, had to use AS to break out, and then trapped Vaatu in the seal.
Headcanon. Raava entering Wan body blatantly joins their energies together, as said so by Raava herself and what is clearly shown to be the case. The difference is that having Raava inside of him is an unstable process, as you said, which can kill the holder if she remains inside of their bodies for too long.
That does not mean that Raava isn't strengthening them. It's simply a temporary boost that has a fatal effect if used for too long.
See above. It's inconsistent feats compared to what the narrative, context, and other showings show.
Which doesn't matter as fully realized Avatars can use the avatar state without the glow staying continuous. Kyoshi proves this for turning on the Avatar State for like a second and then the glow vanishes right before she separates Kyoshi Island from the mainland. Unless base Kyoshi is 7-B all of a sudden, which isn't flying.
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Wait is this still going? I thought the stuff had been applied and accepted.
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It kinda dragged and then halted. But yeah some of this stuff at least has definitely already been accepted.
We just need to apply it.
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Don't let this die again.
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Well we should get a consensus of what’s been accepted here so we can start applying the changes.
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The main thing was making Vaata, Raava, and post-Book 2 Korra while in the avatar state "6-c, likely much higher."
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