- 3,711
- 2,690
First of all, let's revive something from an old thread. The reason Mario's cosmology is even considered countless 2-B to begin with is because of dreams. We consider dreams universes, which has proven true in multiple games, and so with statements and acknowledgments of there being countless of sentient lifeforms who can dream, as well as dream within a dream, we decided there are countless universes in Mario. According to the English version of Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, the Dream Stone is made up of dreams, as in a collection of all dreams, which would thusly make it a 2-B artifact. The reason countless 2-B is even in effect is because characters could use the power of this artifact, becoming one with it, as we see with Dreamy Bowser. Super Dimentio as a result scaled to Dreamy Bowser for the English version stating the Void will consume all worlds, dimensions, and end everything pretty much. Now, this makes complete sense and there's really no argument against it...
...but what if I told you that, much like other verses, the place of origin of the series, Japan and it's home language, actually makes the verse much weaker?
For starters, I wanna pull up something from an older thread that's basically dead now and it's better fit for this thread anyways.
This shows us that the Japanese text doesn't mention a thing about the Dream Stone being made of dreams at all. This singular difference alone is enough for a massive downgrade on it's own, at least for Dreamy Bowser. We can discuss if he'll even get a tier beyond "At Least [whatever tier the Mario cast is at]" But what about Super Dimentio? Surely Super Dimentio is still countless 2-B as countless dreams and universes are still a thing even without the Dream Stone, right? Well... That brings me to the next topic of discussion.
Super Paper Mario is vastly different in the Japanese version as well.
For this next section I'm going to separate the breakdown into multiple parts that tackle a specific word used in the English version and what the Japanese version says to make it more coherent and flow well.
1. Dimensions
This is a pretty big one. Right now, the most important line of text that supports the current tier is the line Merlon states at the start of the game.
Here, it just says "swallow everything in the world"
This is already a major difference that already dinwgrades the feat greatly. But I just want to keep consistency and show the other cases too.
Tippi calling Sanmers Kingdom a dimension?
Instead of Tippi saying dimension, she says world in the Japanese.
Merlumina saying they split the Purity Heart and hid the pieces in other dimensions?
Merlumina says that they split the heart up and hid them in different worlds, not dimensions.
Now, what we do know and what is consistent is that Flipside is in between dimensions, however, it's just a town/city at best. So the Void being here doesn't mean much. And we also know Mario comes from another dimension. That's also consistent in the Japanese. Even if there were a statement of all dimensions being destroyed in the japanese text, it would only be a 2-C feat at best knowing this, as in 2 universes, one being Mario's and the other being this other dimension's. Flipside is a city in-between so it's not gonna count for much. However, as we established, there is no such statement so we can only assume one dimension is being affected. Every instance a "dimension" is mentioned in English is consistently replaced with "world" in the japanese, which brings us to our next section.
2. World/Sekai
All mentions of "all worlds" or "every world" has also been wiped in place of "the world".
I'm sure I don't have to tell you how vague this word is. It may as well be infamous in VS Debates. Within the context of Super Paper Mario, however, I think narratively when they speak about the scope of the destruction the characters and game refer to the universe as a whole, and when they say things like "this world" when related to the locations it's just a fancy way of saying "land" like in other Marios.
The reason I say this is because NPCs frequently are aware of other's existences in the many worlds (this just being one example), with various characters having intel on specific characters that are in other Chapters, have personally known characters from other Chapters, have been to those places, etc. For example, Merlon knows of Merlee despite her occupying Chapter 2. He also knows of Bestovius. We also find out Merluvlee and Merlee know Bestovious and Watchitt in Spm's infamous sidequest. The shopkeeper also has set up shops in multiple Chapters (including Space), and one NPC can even be seen at Sammer's Kingdom losing and traveling back home, with his house having relics from each Chapter as souvenirs in his travels, greatly implying he's been to them all before you. We also know from one of the storytelling NPCs that one of the Pits has had creatures from all over the world put into it, with this pit having creatures and murals that pertain to each Chapter. And Chapter 4 is also literally called the universe/outer space and multiple characters treat it as if it's actual space and not a separate dimension of spacetime. We also see the planet SPM presumably takes place on in Chapter 7 when Mario is launched into space. Basically, these chapters are different locations in the universe/planet and all function under the same spacetime. The most damning evidence is the fact characters from multiple Chapters have all waited the same amount of time, 1,500 years, for the Heroes to show up and take the Pure Heart, and we know it's the same timeframe because the game constantly reinstates it. We also have the Japanese names for the Worlds, with World 7-1 being またまた来たよ！地のそこへ | We're Back Once Again! To the Bottom of the Earth. There is no excuse for this. We're explicitly told we're on a planet with this, and that the Underwear (Under Land in Japan) is below it. We see the planet in 7-3, and The Overthere is simply called Sky Land implying it's in the sky, which also seems pretty evident. This entire Chapter, called a "dimension" in English, and a world in Japanese, is clearly not a whole universe. There's also the fact Francis in Chapter 3, aliens in Chapter 4, and characters in Flipside refer to the same TV Show. Unless we're arguing this show can transmit between universes this is also pretty damning. We also have evidence that The Whoa Zone is located outside space-time and the Void never touches this zone, proving it's limit within one universe. So with both the general space and time all being connected, I think this is pretty damning evidence that only a single universe's space-time was affected, as we've already established that dimensions have been pretty much cut from the original and no statement of all dimensions or all worlds would end, meaning we have no way of truly knowing if the Void did reach into Mario's dimension and the countless other dimensions.
And as for the Ancients supposedly "creating magnificent worlds?"
No mention of creating the worlds at all.
3. Universe/Space
This is the general consistent scope of the Void's destruction. There's not really much I can say here other than "universe" being replaced by "world" in the japanese a lot, but that doesn't change the fact there's a Void in space too, which would mean the entire universe is gonna be destroyed. And yes, space is called endless and infinite so it would be at least High 3-A and maybe Low 2-C.
But yeah, with context, it seems to me that The Void, and thusly, the Chaos Heart and Pure Hearts and the 4 Heroes would need to be downgraded to at least High 3-A to Low 2-C due to lacking a statement of consuming all dimensions and worlds as the english says, of which we can't even be sure these worlds are separate space-times, and with the only actual evidence we have supporting only a single universe's space-time being affected. Also, the English version called Planet Bobule a star for one of the tattles I believe, a clear mistranslation given planet and star are represented by the same word in Japanese. This proves that the English translators weren't fully accurate and are unreliable.
So basically:
- Dream Stone and Dreamy Bowser get downgraded for not being literally made of all dreams, greatly downgrading the feat. To what? I'm not sure. We can discuss. But at the moment I'm thinking just scale him heavily above the current ratings of the base cast.
- Everything that scales to the Chaos Heart and the Pure Hearts would be downgraded to at least High 3-A, maybe Low 2-C due to lack of evidence that the Void would destroy and consume every single dimension and world and all of existence like the English says, meaning we can't scale it to the countless number of universes in Mario, as well as characters and official sources consistently stating the scope is only universal, with characters and context supporting only a single space-time being affected.
I'm aware this is probably controversial, but my goal is to try and have the verse at it's most accurate tierings, so even if it's sad to see such a huge downgrade, it's what's best.
If there are any counters to be had, then I'd suggest you find actual statements in the Japanese version that would support your argument before replying, as the English source is clearly not a full 1:1 translation and Japanese takes precedence. I only used a few English scans because it was either not changed much in the Japanese or it was just additional support for my arguments.
If anyone doubts the translations, then we can ask for a translation from someone more qualified and trusted. Remember, this is a potential downgrade. I'm wanting to evaluate my findings to confirm if they are true as well.
Agree: 3 (@Kirbonic_Pikmin @theultimate5105* @Apex_PredatorX* )
*Agrees with the Dream Stone only so far
Neutral: 3 (@Maverick_Zero_X @theultimate5105* @Apex_PredatorX*)
*Neutral on the SPM stuff
Disagree: 1 (@Breakdown )
...but what if I told you that, much like other verses, the place of origin of the series, Japan and it's home language, actually makes the verse much weaker?
For starters, I wanna pull up something from an older thread that's basically dead now and it's better fit for this thread anyways.
This shows us that the Japanese text doesn't mention a thing about the Dream Stone being made of dreams at all. This singular difference alone is enough for a massive downgrade on it's own, at least for Dreamy Bowser. We can discuss if he'll even get a tier beyond "At Least [whatever tier the Mario cast is at]" But what about Super Dimentio? Surely Super Dimentio is still countless 2-B as countless dreams and universes are still a thing even without the Dream Stone, right? Well... That brings me to the next topic of discussion.
Super Paper Mario is vastly different in the Japanese version as well.
For this next section I'm going to separate the breakdown into multiple parts that tackle a specific word used in the English version and what the Japanese version says to make it more coherent and flow well.
1. Dimensions
This is a pretty big one. Right now, the most important line of text that supports the current tier is the line Merlon states at the start of the game.
Here, it just says "swallow everything in the world"
This is already a major difference that already dinwgrades the feat greatly. But I just want to keep consistency and show the other cases too.
Tippi calling Sanmers Kingdom a dimension?
Instead of Tippi saying dimension, she says world in the Japanese.
Merlumina saying they split the Purity Heart and hid the pieces in other dimensions?
Merlumina says that they split the heart up and hid them in different worlds, not dimensions.
Now, what we do know and what is consistent is that Flipside is in between dimensions, however, it's just a town/city at best. So the Void being here doesn't mean much. And we also know Mario comes from another dimension. That's also consistent in the Japanese. Even if there were a statement of all dimensions being destroyed in the japanese text, it would only be a 2-C feat at best knowing this, as in 2 universes, one being Mario's and the other being this other dimension's. Flipside is a city in-between so it's not gonna count for much. However, as we established, there is no such statement so we can only assume one dimension is being affected. Every instance a "dimension" is mentioned in English is consistently replaced with "world" in the japanese, which brings us to our next section.
2. World/Sekai
All mentions of "all worlds" or "every world" has also been wiped in place of "the world".
I'm sure I don't have to tell you how vague this word is. It may as well be infamous in VS Debates. Within the context of Super Paper Mario, however, I think narratively when they speak about the scope of the destruction the characters and game refer to the universe as a whole, and when they say things like "this world" when related to the locations it's just a fancy way of saying "land" like in other Marios.
The reason I say this is because NPCs frequently are aware of other's existences in the many worlds (this just being one example), with various characters having intel on specific characters that are in other Chapters, have personally known characters from other Chapters, have been to those places, etc. For example, Merlon knows of Merlee despite her occupying Chapter 2. He also knows of Bestovius. We also find out Merluvlee and Merlee know Bestovious and Watchitt in Spm's infamous sidequest. The shopkeeper also has set up shops in multiple Chapters (including Space), and one NPC can even be seen at Sammer's Kingdom losing and traveling back home, with his house having relics from each Chapter as souvenirs in his travels, greatly implying he's been to them all before you. We also know from one of the storytelling NPCs that one of the Pits has had creatures from all over the world put into it, with this pit having creatures and murals that pertain to each Chapter. And Chapter 4 is also literally called the universe/outer space and multiple characters treat it as if it's actual space and not a separate dimension of spacetime. We also see the planet SPM presumably takes place on in Chapter 7 when Mario is launched into space. Basically, these chapters are different locations in the universe/planet and all function under the same spacetime. The most damning evidence is the fact characters from multiple Chapters have all waited the same amount of time, 1,500 years, for the Heroes to show up and take the Pure Heart, and we know it's the same timeframe because the game constantly reinstates it. We also have the Japanese names for the Worlds, with World 7-1 being またまた来たよ！地のそこへ | We're Back Once Again! To the Bottom of the Earth. There is no excuse for this. We're explicitly told we're on a planet with this, and that the Underwear (Under Land in Japan) is below it. We see the planet in 7-3, and The Overthere is simply called Sky Land implying it's in the sky, which also seems pretty evident. This entire Chapter, called a "dimension" in English, and a world in Japanese, is clearly not a whole universe. There's also the fact Francis in Chapter 3, aliens in Chapter 4, and characters in Flipside refer to the same TV Show. Unless we're arguing this show can transmit between universes this is also pretty damning. We also have evidence that The Whoa Zone is located outside space-time and the Void never touches this zone, proving it's limit within one universe. So with both the general space and time all being connected, I think this is pretty damning evidence that only a single universe's space-time was affected, as we've already established that dimensions have been pretty much cut from the original and no statement of all dimensions or all worlds would end, meaning we have no way of truly knowing if the Void did reach into Mario's dimension and the countless other dimensions.
And as for the Ancients supposedly "creating magnificent worlds?"
No mention of creating the worlds at all.
3. Universe/Space
This is the general consistent scope of the Void's destruction. There's not really much I can say here other than "universe" being replaced by "world" in the japanese a lot, but that doesn't change the fact there's a Void in space too, which would mean the entire universe is gonna be destroyed. And yes, space is called endless and infinite so it would be at least High 3-A and maybe Low 2-C.
But yeah, with context, it seems to me that The Void, and thusly, the Chaos Heart and Pure Hearts and the 4 Heroes would need to be downgraded to at least High 3-A to Low 2-C due to lacking a statement of consuming all dimensions and worlds as the english says, of which we can't even be sure these worlds are separate space-times, and with the only actual evidence we have supporting only a single universe's space-time being affected. Also, the English version called Planet Bobule a star for one of the tattles I believe, a clear mistranslation given planet and star are represented by the same word in Japanese. This proves that the English translators weren't fully accurate and are unreliable.
So basically:
- Dream Stone and Dreamy Bowser get downgraded for not being literally made of all dreams, greatly downgrading the feat. To what? I'm not sure. We can discuss. But at the moment I'm thinking just scale him heavily above the current ratings of the base cast.
- Everything that scales to the Chaos Heart and the Pure Hearts would be downgraded to at least High 3-A, maybe Low 2-C due to lack of evidence that the Void would destroy and consume every single dimension and world and all of existence like the English says, meaning we can't scale it to the countless number of universes in Mario, as well as characters and official sources consistently stating the scope is only universal, with characters and context supporting only a single space-time being affected.
I'm aware this is probably controversial, but my goal is to try and have the verse at it's most accurate tierings, so even if it's sad to see such a huge downgrade, it's what's best.
If there are any counters to be had, then I'd suggest you find actual statements in the Japanese version that would support your argument before replying, as the English source is clearly not a full 1:1 translation and Japanese takes precedence. I only used a few English scans because it was either not changed much in the Japanese or it was just additional support for my arguments.
If anyone doubts the translations, then we can ask for a translation from someone more qualified and trusted. Remember, this is a potential downgrade. I'm wanting to evaluate my findings to confirm if they are true as well.
Agree: 3 (@Kirbonic_Pikmin @theultimate5105* @Apex_PredatorX* )
*Agrees with the Dream Stone only so far
Neutral: 3 (@Maverick_Zero_X @theultimate5105* @Apex_PredatorX*)
*Neutral on the SPM stuff
Disagree: 1 (@Breakdown )
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