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So Long 2-B Mario... (Potentially BIG downgrade for SPM feats)

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First of all, let's revive something from an old thread. The reason Mario's cosmology is even considered countless 2-B to begin with is because of dreams. We consider dreams universes, which has proven true in multiple games, and so with statements and acknowledgments of there being countless of sentient lifeforms who can dream, as well as dream within a dream, we decided there are countless universes in Mario. According to the English version of Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, the Dream Stone is made up of dreams, as in a collection of all dreams, which would thusly make it a 2-B artifact. The reason countless 2-B is even in effect is because characters could use the power of this artifact, becoming one with it, as we see with Dreamy Bowser. Super Dimentio as a result scaled to Dreamy Bowser for the English version stating the Void will consume all worlds, dimensions, and end everything pretty much. Now, this makes complete sense and there's really no argument against it...

...but what if I told you that, much like other verses, the place of origin of the series, Japan and it's home language, actually makes the verse much weaker?

For starters, I wanna pull up something from an older thread that's basically dead now and it's better fit for this thread anyways.



This shows us that the Japanese text doesn't mention a thing about the Dream Stone being made of dreams at all. This singular difference alone is enough for a massive downgrade on it's own, at least for Dreamy Bowser. We can discuss if he'll even get a tier beyond "At Least [whatever tier the Mario cast is at]" But what about Super Dimentio? Surely Super Dimentio is still countless 2-B as countless dreams and universes are still a thing even without the Dream Stone, right? Well... That brings me to the next topic of discussion.

Super Paper Mario is vastly different in the Japanese version as well.

For this next section I'm going to separate the breakdown into multiple parts that tackle a specific word used in the English version and what the Japanese version says to make it more coherent and flow well.

1. Dimensions

This is a pretty big one. Right now, the most important line of text that supports the current tier is the line Merlon states at the start of the game.



Here, it just says "swallow everything in the world"

This is already a major difference that already dinwgrades the feat greatly. But I just want to keep consistency and show the other cases too.

Tippi calling Sanmers Kingdom a dimension?



Instead of Tippi saying dimension, she says world in the Japanese.

Merlumina saying they split the Purity Heart and hid the pieces in other dimensions?



Merlumina says that they split the heart up and hid them in different worlds, not dimensions.

Now, what we do know and what is consistent is that Flipside is in between dimensions, however, it's just a town/city at best. So the Void being here doesn't mean much. And we also know Mario comes from another dimension. That's also consistent in the Japanese. Even if there were a statement of all dimensions being destroyed in the japanese text, it would only be a 2-C feat at best knowing this, as in 2 universes, one being Mario's and the other being this other dimension's. Flipside is a city in-between so it's not gonna count for much. However, as we established, there is no such statement so we can only assume one dimension is being affected. Every instance a "dimension" is mentioned in English is consistently replaced with "world" in the japanese, which brings us to our next section.

2. World/Sekai



All mentions of "all worlds" or "every world" has also been wiped in place of "the world".

I'm sure I don't have to tell you how vague this word is. It may as well be infamous in VS Debates. Within the context of Super Paper Mario, however, I think narratively when they speak about the scope of the destruction the characters and game refer to the universe as a whole, and when they say things like "this world" when related to the locations it's just a fancy way of saying "land" like in other Marios.

The reason I say this is because NPCs frequently are aware of other's existences in the many worlds (this just being one example), with various characters having intel on specific characters that are in other Chapters, have personally known characters from other Chapters, have been to those places, etc. For example, Merlon knows of Merlee despite her occupying Chapter 2. He also knows of Bestovius. We also find out Merluvlee and Merlee know Bestovious and Watchitt in Spm's infamous sidequest. The shopkeeper also has set up shops in multiple Chapters (including Space), and one NPC can even be seen at Sammer's Kingdom losing and traveling back home, with his house having relics from each Chapter as souvenirs in his travels, greatly implying he's been to them all before you. We also know from one of the storytelling NPCs that one of the Pits has had creatures from all over the world put into it, with this pit having creatures and murals that pertain to each Chapter. And Chapter 4 is also literally called the universe/outer space and multiple characters treat it as if it's actual space and not a separate dimension of spacetime. We also see the planet SPM presumably takes place on in Chapter 7 when Mario is launched into space. Basically, these chapters are different locations in the universe/planet and all function under the same spacetime. The most damning evidence is the fact characters from multiple Chapters have all waited the same amount of time, 1,500 years, for the Heroes to show up and take the Pure Heart, and we know it's the same timeframe because the game constantly reinstates it. We also have the Japanese names for the Worlds, with World 7-1 being またまた来たよ!地のそこへ | We're Back Once Again! To the Bottom of the Earth. There is no excuse for this. We're explicitly told we're on a planet with this, and that the Underwear (Under Land in Japan) is below it. We see the planet in 7-3, and The Overthere is simply called Sky Land implying it's in the sky, which also seems pretty evident. This entire Chapter, called a "dimension" in English, and a world in Japanese, is clearly not a whole universe. There's also the fact Francis in Chapter 3, aliens in Chapter 4, and characters in Flipside refer to the same TV Show. Unless we're arguing this show can transmit between universes this is also pretty damning. We also have evidence that The Whoa Zone is located outside space-time and the Void never touches this zone, proving it's limit within one universe. So with both the general space and time all being connected, I think this is pretty damning evidence that only a single universe's space-time was affected, as we've already established that dimensions have been pretty much cut from the original and no statement of all dimensions or all worlds would end, meaning we have no way of truly knowing if the Void did reach into Mario's dimension and the countless other dimensions.

And as for the Ancients supposedly "creating magnificent worlds?"


No mention of creating the worlds at all.

3. Universe/Space

This is the general consistent scope of the Void's destruction. There's not really much I can say here other than "universe" being replaced by "world" in the japanese a lot, but that doesn't change the fact there's a Void in space too, which would mean the entire universe is gonna be destroyed. And yes, space is called endless and infinite so it would be at least High 3-A and maybe Low 2-C.

But yeah, with context, it seems to me that The Void, and thusly, the Chaos Heart and Pure Hearts and the 4 Heroes would need to be downgraded to at least High 3-A to Low 2-C due to lacking a statement of consuming all dimensions and worlds as the english says, of which we can't even be sure these worlds are separate space-times, and with the only actual evidence we have supporting only a single universe's space-time being affected. Also, the English version called Planet Bobule a star for one of the tattles I believe, a clear mistranslation given planet and star are represented by the same word in Japanese. This proves that the English translators weren't fully accurate and are unreliable.

So basically:

- Dream Stone and Dreamy Bowser get downgraded for not being literally made of all dreams, greatly downgrading the feat. To what? I'm not sure. We can discuss. But at the moment I'm thinking just scale him heavily above the current ratings of the base cast.

- Everything that scales to the Chaos Heart and the Pure Hearts would be downgraded to at least High 3-A, maybe Low 2-C due to lack of evidence that the Void would destroy and consume every single dimension and world and all of existence like the English says, meaning we can't scale it to the countless number of universes in Mario, as well as characters and official sources consistently stating the scope is only universal, with characters and context supporting only a single space-time being affected.

I'm aware this is probably controversial, but my goal is to try and have the verse at it's most accurate tierings, so even if it's sad to see such a huge downgrade, it's what's best.

If there are any counters to be had, then I'd suggest you find actual statements in the Japanese version that would support your argument before replying, as the English source is clearly not a full 1:1 translation and Japanese takes precedence. I only used a few English scans because it was either not changed much in the Japanese or it was just additional support for my arguments.

If anyone doubts the translations, then we can ask for a translation from someone more qualified and trusted. Remember, this is a potential downgrade. I'm wanting to evaluate my findings to confirm if they are true as well.

Agree: 3 (@Kirbonic_Pikmin @theultimate5105* @Apex_PredatorX* )

*Agrees with the Dream Stone only so far

Neutral: 3 (@Maverick_Zero_X @theultimate5105* @Apex_PredatorX*)

*Neutral on the SPM stuff

Disagree: 1 (@Breakdown )
 
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Disagree.

The Dream Stone possesses the power of dreams, which are 2-B. Whether or not it is made of dreams is irrelevant if it is blatantly said to be as strong as them. It logically follows that Dimentio and Dreamy Bowser scale.

Your assumption that people are speaking in flowery language about the world being destroyed is a personal Interpretation and an unfalsifiable claim. Such subjectivity has no place here. The villain's are treated as an existential threat by the narrative. Character statements that match it should be considered accurate.

Let's talk about world. You're really hyperfixiating on whatever possible tiny difference whether or not it makes sense in context. Dimension and world are very frequently used interchangeably in real life and fiction, inferring that here is not a stretch. Statements about "All the world", "Everything in the world", etc. should be taken as multiversal as since said statements imply the entire cosmology, not a localized area.

Ffs you're misinterpretation raws.
 
I was requested to send this in response to the thread, I think it makes some good points:
 
The power of dreams isn't quantifiable at all. Prove to me having the vague "power of dreams" is a 2-B feat at all. Their "power" could only create a small barrier around the castle at best. You need better evidence than that.

Also, dimension and worlds can be used interchangeably yes, but is this provably the case as it in within the context of Japanese Super Paper Mario? That's up for debate.
 
And that debunk is barely a debunk. I already tackled how "the power of dreams" isn't quantifiable. It's not actually absorbing the dreams in the Japanese, but their "power". For some reason we're equating sizes of the dreams with this "power" they can supposedly produce? There's no justification for that.

It just says "worlds" = "universes" with no proof. Chapter 4 is called THE universe, treated simply as just outer space. It being a world means nothing as the general "world" is what's being destroyed anyways. He says NPCs can't walk but then assume that one NPC has a method of dimensional travel unbeknownst to us. How did Merlee get back to Flipside as well? How do people know so much about the other worlds? He assumes the Dimensional Doors, but those appear only AFTER Mario arrives to collect Pure Hearts. And again, worlds in Mario can mean lands. The Void leaving a blank white space means nothing as we've seen with Color Splash; sections of the world can be erased or turned into voids at a time. Hardly a counter. Also, uses an English guide when nothing to support time being destroyed is in the game

Also, something having the name "dimension" or "dimensional" doesn't mean anything. Is The Whoa Zone another dimension because it's keys have "Dimension" as their title? Are we traveling to other universes in Galaxy because the portals have a canonical Japanese name on the website "Dimensional Doors"?

Though I admit I should've added the translations for some of the scans. I'll try to get on that.

I also quite literally asked others to get their own translations if they don't trust me. I'm bringing these up TO get evaluated, not simply denied in case they hold a truth we don't like
 
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The power of dreams isn't quantifiable at all. Prove to me having the vague "power of dreams" is a 2-B feat at all. Their "power" could only create a small barrier around the castle at best. You need better evidence than that.

Also, dimension and worlds can be used interchangeably yes, but is this provably the case as it in within the context of Japanese Super Paper Mario? That's up for debate.
What did the power of dreams do?
 
I cannot believe you seriously used Google Translate for such a controversial topic

Also, uses an English guide when nothing to support time being destroyed is in the game

The guide isn't contradicted, though

Is The Whoa Zone another dimension because it's keys have "Dimension" as their title?

The Whoa Zone is also larger than space itself. The void was going to erase this, by the way, which is more evidence of scaling to the whole cosmology
 
It goes likes this:

Antasma and Bowser use the Dreambeats to lure people to sleep. We see little orbs fly into the Dream Stone. Antasma said they're powering the Dream Stone up with orbs that are "the power of dreams" or something and then they create a castle and barrier with it. But just to be sure I'll check the Japanese version again.
 
Yes, because residing beyond space automatically means "larger than".

And the Void was nowhere to be seen in the Whoa Zone tbh
 
It goes likes this:

Antasma and Bowser use the Dreambeats to lure people to sleep. We see little orbs fly into the Dream Stone. Antasma said they're powering the Dream Stone up with orbs that are "the power of dreams" or something and then they create a castle and barrier with it. But just to be sure I'll check the Japanese version again.
It then created dream universes. Nothing complicated at all. Long ass explanations aren't needed at all. Mario scaling does not have to be this confusing
 
No, the Dreambeats lured people to sleep. The Dream Stone didn't create anything. All it did was absorb the power of the Dream Orbs that came from people's dreams
 
Thats not the same as being beyond it


Im saying the power of dreams is what creates universes
But it's equivocally NOT dreams though. They are orbs created by those who sleep/dream but in no way are the orbs Dreams themselves nor entire universes nor entire universe's worth of energy. There is no proof.

And "beyond" can literally mean existing beyond the boundaries of. Pretty simple stuff. And again, no Void in the Whoa Zone so we can't prove it was part of the endangered area as, again, I reinstate this, there is no mention of anything beyond the single universe being affected by the Void in the Japanese version. No Void in the Whoa Zone supports this greatly actually.
 
But it's equivocally NOT dreams though. They are orbs created by those who sleep/dream but in no way are the orbs Dreams themselves nor entire universes nor entire universe's worth of energy. There is no proof.

And "beyond" can literally mean existing beyond the boundaries of. Pretty simple stuff. And again, no Void in the Whoa Zone so we can't prove it was part of the endangered area as, again, I reinstate this, there is no mention of anything beyond the single universe being affected by the Void in the Japanese version. No Void in the Whoa Zone supports this greatly actually.
Why do they need to be dreams? The dreams power is what's relevant here

Beyond the boundaries of is being larger or greater in quantity than
 
Also would like to bring up that we have context from Count Bleck that he wants to destroy the entire world and starts with his country according to the Japanese text that contradicted him destroying an entire universe. So we KNOW that secular erasure can take place.

Also, The Void is a dimensional hole in the fabric of space specifically, solidifying the fact "dimension" relates to the spatial sense like warping and spatial anomalies. This alone doesn't prove that it existed throughout multiple universes though.
 
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Why do they need to be dreams? The dreams power is what's relevant here

Beyond the boundaries of is being larger or greater in quantity than
The dream's power is irrelevant because they are just random mystical orbs they create as a product of sleeping and we have no idea what the aspects of this power the orbs have are because it's super vague and not well-explained at all, but it doesn't support 2-B. In no universe does what the game says support 2-B without the "made of dreams" statement.

Also, that's literally not the only definition. The game also says that the Whoa Zone is outside of space in the text in jaoanes I believe. Or at least I think it says that.
 
If it's all "a matter of interpretation" then please do try and get more accurate translations for the text I supplied. Also a lot of focusing on "worlds" when that wasn't the point at all. It's more so supporting evidence.

So far the proof for 2-B (for SPM) is:

1. Basing it off the text that it consumed all dimensions, all worlds, and all of existence, which is quite evidently NOT in the Japanese.

2. Assuming "worlds" are inherently universes in size for no reason. In the English version these other places are called other dimensions, but this is literally not the case with the Japanese and that was why I made a section about that. Dimension is only referred to in the spatial sense or talking about Mario's home and Flipside being between dimensions. I've looked at every other mention of dimension from the English to see how it translates in Japanese and they all just say "world" which just isn't enough, especially given we now know from the japanese version that the Void can be secular in it's destruction, coupled with a place outside of the universe's infinite space not having the Void present at all at any point of the game, the NPCs gossiping about people from other worlds (lands or levels in this context) and traveling between them without Dimensional Doors prior to Mario coming around (as well as those Doors being one-way), gathering souvenirs and maps from all locations, and the slotted time of Pure Heart Guardians waiting 1,500 years consistently across the Chapters just seems to really hammer in the fact it's a single, shared spacetime.

There's not really good evidence otherwise to support the ratings either. Say, these ARE universes, and give the other side the benefit of the doubt, we'd then only be able to attribute The Void to the destruction of like, 8 universes at best? Because remember no context saying it destroyed every dimension or all of existence in the japanese. That's still a downgrade. No mention of "countless" worlds even in the English version either and the Ancients didn't even create them to begin with going by the Japanese.

And the Dreams I've already discussed. Just seems like a downgrade all around.
 
I'm gonna be heading to bed so if anything comes up while I'm gone it may take a bit for me to respond

Also, slandering my name and treating me like I haven't played the games and don't know shit is exactly why I didn't want to keep in contact with your toxic attitude, Weeb. I have severe anxiety so it's not fun for me.
 
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Keep it on topic.

Okay now I depart. But if people want to prove me wrong it's probably gonna take an actual full translation effort, and if it turns out the translations say pretty much what I said? Then there shouldn't be an argument with a downgrade. Unless people are afraid what I'm saying is right and therefore refuse to actually look into it themselves. But we'll see I guess.
 
I like the initiative but this isn't the best way to do things. Tackle those 2 things at once, still not show the kanjis of the Jap. texts you show, and while other Mario stuff is still going on, you could have constructed this in parts via private messages, threads like this need to be foolproof and with the least amount of back & forward between users by way of predicting what they may come up with.
 
Makes sense at a glance but I will reserve my view until someone from the site can confirm this translation discrepancy. It's quite honestly surprising how the English translation deviates from the original, especially mainly in those dialogues which are important for powerscaling. We probably need to take a look at the entire verse at this point from scratch.
 
I'm kind of in the middle with the Dream Stone, I do think it should still be some degree of Multiversal, but I don't think it should scale to Dream Depot. In the Dreambeats cutscene, its influence is only shown over Pi'illo island, and the Dream Orbs are only shown to come from Pi'illo Island. With that in mind, it makes the stone being more of a dream energy repository make more sense. So, I think Dreamy Bowser should only scale to the dreams from Pi'illo Island.
 
I'm kind of in the middle with the Dream Stone, I do think it should still be some degree of Multiversal, but I don't think it should scale to Dream Depot. In the Dreambeats cutscene, its influence is only shown over Pi'illo island, and the Dream Orbs are only shown to come from Pi'illo Island. With that in mind, it makes the stone being more of a dream energy repository make more sense. So, I think Dreamy Bowser should only scale to the dreams from Pi'illo Island.
On second thought, I agree with that.
 
I don't see how the Dream Stone makes universes with a distance between them comparable to distance between universe in a multiverse, if I create a bunch of stars then they sure are stars, but the distance between them is what's proven, not what the distance between real stars is.
The SPM guidebook also says the Void will destroy all of space and time, and considering the Void reaches other dimensions, it should be all universes.
Destroy all space and time can be as in A) the universe or B) more than just the universe, it's doesn't add anything other than the feat being Low 2-C rather than lower.

And there is something Medeus didn't see in a page of the guide he posted last time.

"To reach the end of the book is to deliver crushing finality on the universe." (Bleck was) "Determined to wreak revenge on the universe and its many dimensions" "Merlon charges Mario to find eight Pure Hearts that allow travel between the dimensions threatened by Bleck's plans. If Mario can amass the Pure Hearts and rescue his friends, maybe the universe stands a chance of surviving Count Bleck."

On the second one, the target of the destruction is the universe & its many dimensions, meaning the many "worlds" in the game making up the universe, this being a singular universe, and those plural dimensions only being within that singular universe.

Also given the large relevance of the topic in this verse, and comments like this and this, I find appropriate to make this a staff thread and may for example Foxthefox1000 and LuckyEmile keep on commenting freely. The rest can still do so only some small limitations and while there are no more comments like "Another Mario downgrade..." and "Quick Mario supporters spam the thread with arguments and diagreeing with the CRT before he can come back".
 
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