So Long 2-B Mario... (Potentially BIG downgrade for SPM feats)

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the Dream Team scaling was agreed doesn't have proof of effecting all dream worlds and there were agreements about 2-C making more sense for them specifically. As for explanations, I'm not sure at the moment how else to rewrite things I've already said, but if I must I will do so when I'm off work at some point.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, the Dream Team scaling was agreed doesn't have proof of effecting all dream worlds and there were agreements about 2-C making more sense for them specifically. As for explanations, I'm not sure at the moment how else to rewrite things I've already said, but if I must I will do so when I'm off work at some point.

Okay. Thank you for the reply. I will unlock the pages for @Mephistus then.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Somewhat caught up, so correct me if im wrong, I agree with Dream Stone being downgraded (it's being downgraded to Low 2-C?) So with that mean Some Mario characters would have a low 2-C key now if Im correct?

 

[GyroNutz]

Curious, what's the reasoning for Low 2-C/2-C dream stone?

 

[Antvasima]

Curious, what's the reasoning for Low 2-C/2-C dream stone?

@Mephistus @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, there is still the part about dream dimensions being universes. The Dream Stone merged multiple dream dimensions into one, including Luigi's dream and Bowser's Dream. And there are like 52 collectables that mention something about dream dimensions being collected, but I do not remember fully. But there's not implication that all dream worlds being effected and the ones we have evidence for would only qualify as 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

@GyroNutz , Medeus has answered your question.

 

[GyroNutz]

I agree the dream dimensions are separate universes, but from what I remember they are inherently separate. For instance, Luigi wasn't able to access someone else's dream without being connected to their dream source. Where does the dimension merging stuff come from?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

IIRC it's from the Dream Spots being able to allow multiple people to share a dream. But yeah, I don't know. It seems like a special property of those areas of the world as Luigi nor anyone else can't merge dreams normally.

I dunno. It would definitely have to be looked into.

I still think English sources should be taken with scrutiny cause there's a translation issue and prima guides have had a record of making mistakes like labeling Baby Bowser as Bowser Jr. and other such things with this series. The fact nothing in-game states the Void effects both time and space makes me believe that it might not even be Low 2-C considering just the English localization. The game consistently only refers to it as a spatial event, "a hole in the dimensional fabric of space," quite literally Merlon's exact words. Not "a hole in space-time," nor mentioning the fabric of space-time. Merlon IS the most reliable source and he's actually in the primary source, so his consistent wording should be treated as superior to the single guide statement considerably more. Even the narrations of the game never say anything about time being destroyed. It's always just a dimensional hole (which is what it's called a lot in Japanese). Time can be a dimension but going off the main source that is clearly not the case here with the singling out of space, and these worlds aren't erased from history or anything, with the timer still working in the destroyed world as well as remnants of civilization being there. If we keep the current ratings because English then I at least want the Tier 2 feat for Sammer's Kingdom to just be "possibly Low 2-C" instead of definite because of both the questionable nature of guides and English localizations already proven within the game itself and also because of the consistency mainly referring to the Void as a spatial thing with time being mentioned at no point in the game.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

If anything Dream Stone being very much under the Pure Hearts in tier makes the most sense, considering the Pure Hearts are said to have "infinite power" or are fueled by something believed to be infinite in power which if we took seriously would've scaled them infinitely above countless 2-B from the previous rating for the Dream Stone. Now being infinitely superior to the Stone makes sense.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I also want to bring up that if we don't downgrade the Ancients how will we treat their creations and ancestors being notably inferior to the Heroes even before any of them had a Pure Heart? Hell, O'Chunks, Mimi, and Dimentio actually do fight the Heroes with the Hearts acquired. Do we treat the Heroes as being ampled ONLY when they're used against Bleck and Dimentio?

If that is the case, then let me ask this: Narratively, what sense does it make for the game to treat Mario and Co. as if they've de-powered when they used the Pure Hearts against Bleck? Super Dimentio becomes invincible and the Heroes can't do anything and the cutscene with Bleck and Tippi seems to indicate as if the Pure Hearts disappear when used and weren't with the Heroes any longer, or at the least weren't supplying them power. Hell, your first encounter with Bleck has Mario unable to do any damage despite him actually "having access" to all Hearts. Doesn't everything support Mario and Co. actually NOT being amped by the Hearts, but rather the Hearts neutering the invincibility/defenses of the threats they face only? I know I think people have said "well they heal the heroes" and equate that to powering them up somehow, but... The amount you heal is tied to the health you've already leveled up to, it's not like they boost the HP or anything, and the damage you deal remains the absolute same as it has for all enemies.

I feel the only reason we consider it an amp is because we're afraid to just treat it as a feat which would make it an outlier and thus dismiss it all entirely. You can't say the Heroes are amped just from owning the Hearts cause then even Francis along with the other Minions fight these amped Heroes, and if it's a matter of "they gotta activate" then context rather supports the fact they also don't amp but rather make the impenetrable/invulnerable the opposite, which is actually much more supported by the Prognosticus' themselves, as their entire purpose as stated throughout the whole game is to "counter the Chaso Heart" which is exactly what they do. They effectively make the Chaos Heart's contributions (invincibility/impenetrable defense) null. The Chaos Heart may make others more powerful and amp them, but is there actually proof the Pure Hearts do the same? I don't believe there is. And if anything Pure Hearts are not something any single individual can call upon, so if anything we'd have to change the Key to "with the Heroes of the Light Prognosticus'' because THAT'S the true condition to unlocking the Hearts' powers.

 

[GyroNutz]

IIRC it's from the Dream Spots being able to allow multiple people to share a dream. But yeah, I don't know. It seems like a special property of those areas of the world as Luigi nor anyone else can't merge dreams normally.

I get the dream spots thing, that doesn't seem like merging universes together though. If it's based off of dream orbs being universal in energy, then wouldn't Bowser's dream kinda contradict that? Antasma takes a notable amount of dream energy from that yet the dream continues existing.

There is a statement about Antasma consuming entire nightmares in the past, can't remember if it was stated that he had the dark stone at this point though.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm aware of Tippi saying "The Pure Hearts gave us power!" but "power" can simply be related to energy and refer to the fact it revitalized them only. The Japanese sentence it hails from even uses a kanji symbol that can mean things like energy which makes much more sense with the scene. Hell, the Heroes are supposed to be in a weakened state anyways so it giving them "power" that only revitalizes them to top strength still makes sense. I don't personally see it as a big amp, because if so why didn't they do it when fighting Bleck? They have no statements nor inclinations of providing any power and dialogue after the fight even acknowledges everyone figured the Hearts were used up and just kinda went away when they just shattered the barrier. Plus they looked black when they appeared again kinda confirming they did use their power.

That being said I believe we already downgraded Bleck anyways, and considered only the barrier the Chaos Heart made to be 2-B.

Though for Super Dimentio I believe all the Hearts did was heal the Heroes. Revitalizing is considered giving someone power and all the context supports this. It being an amp isn't supported, as the Heroes literally fight against Dimentio beforehand and are only exhausted from not being able to inflict damage due to invincibility, not because they were overpowered. We have at least a full minute and maybe even two before Tippi arrives with the Hearts. And Dimentio seems to imply he was going to use the Void to just erase everything before the Hearts showed up.

Also consider the fact that Super Dimentio is JUST Dimentio, Luigi, and the Chaos Heart combined and merged into one. Once the Pure Hearts once again counter the Chaos Heart that leaves only Dimentio and Luigi's powers which is easily able to be contended with as they're all the same tier, which is what we see from the jumping and punching and the Dimentio block things shooting at you. Notice how Super Dimentio barely uses the actual powers of the Chaos Heart unlike Bleck and specifically only leaves behind a shadow of his power to keep the Chaos Heart around so that the Void can still consume everything even without Luigi and Dimentio. I don't even think Super Dimentio's typical AP should even be scaled to the Void at all. Like, they're striking strength should just be Dimentio + Luigi's and the actual attacks they use are more so the abilities of the two hosts, meaning most of the AP is gonna be Luigi + Dimentio's. The Void is just something in the background they can control and sustain. And who knows if Super Dimentio planned to survive the destruction without the invincibility as is more implied.

So actually I think Super Dimentio should be downgraded, but because Luigi and Dimentio are the ones mostly contributing to the attacks after the Chaos Heart is nulled once again. It's still even there because Dimentio stays alive long enough and makes sure he does so until it can perform it's goal. Dimentio nor Luigi not even once actually use it's power for their attacks, and this would be further supported by Bleck only being 2-B because of the Chaos Heart in durability (even though he uses Voids in his battle but the Heroes were provably NOT amped so we don't consider these Voids to have 2-B AP despite it likely being a power of the Chaos Heart/Dark Prognosticus and not Bleck). It's the most consistent thing.

So I propose that Super Dimentio should get a "At least 3-C (Contains the combined powers of Luigi and Dimentio), 2-B with the Void (The Chaos Heart, the source of the Void that would consume all dimensions in the Marioverse, became one with Luigi and Dimentio, but it's somewhat consistent that it doesn't provide an amp to the hosts, as Count Bleck showed he was the same match for Mario with and without the barrier created by the Heart in terms of AP)"

And then downgrade the Striking Strength and Lifting Strength to just "At Least Galactic (should be superior to Base Luigi and Dimentio)"

And Durability should have the same reasonings as AP but changed to note the fact that once the barrier and invincibility was shattered, Mario and Co. were able to easily harm both Bleck and Super Dimentio, and a note saying it's unknown and unlikely that the Chaos Heart amps it's users base durability beyond making them invulnerable via barriers or invincibility, as if it COULD amp durability the barriers and invincibility would not be needed as the Heroes wouldn't have the AP to harm the hosts. It would be just straight up 2-B with invincibility or "can negate all forms of attack up to 2-B levels of damage" like how we word other profiles or whatever.

So in reality the Pure Hearts shouldn't grant Mario or the others a tier at all. They just negate invulnerability and barriers up to 2-B as their only purpose. They didn't empower the Heroes at all, and if they did it was just to give them strength after being exhausted and weakened, not an amp.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Although the thread states that it's a staff discussion, I see many non-staff members commenting here so I guess I can mention something. I'm surprised at the fact that people are debating far more about the more sensical second topic related to Super Paper Mario, when the first point related to Mario & Luigi: Dream Team seems insignificant to me and is a plan more worth arguing against going through with.

It seems to me that the point about the Dream Stone doesn't change anything. Not even the English statement actually deliberately clarified that by "dreams" it meant "dream worlds", it's just that the statement meaning "dream worlds" is asserted to be the case by the VS Battles Wiki because "dream" can be synonymous to "dream world" in the Super Mario series, and that context is valid in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team because the game's shtick is dream worlds. So, since dream worlds are universes, the Japanese statement basically says "The Dream Stone is a collection of the power of universes...", since to the same logic as the English version, it should also be asserted for the Japanese version that "dreams" is synonymous to "dream worlds". In this case, the sense in which the term "dreams" is used doesn't change depending on the language regardless of whether the wording is different or not, since the sense comes from the game and its context rather than the actual statement. This means both the English statement and Japanese statement describe the Dream Stone as 2-B, in different fashions.

The power of dreams isn't quantifiable at all. Prove to me having the vague "power of dreams" is a 2-B feat at all. Their "power" could only create a small barrier around the castle at best.

For the reasons in my previous paragraph, I think that the Japanese statement makes the tier 2-B even more definite for the Dream Stone than the English statement does, since the Japanese statement mentions power instead of ambiguously considering the Dream Stone "made" of dreams. The Dream Stone clearly isn't made of actual dreams nor dream worlds in terms of its shape and its material, so what it's literally made of doesn't seem to matter, and the Dream Stone being described as being "made" of dreams doesn't more clearly signify it being 2-B than what the "power of dreams" it's stated to have signifies. If you think the "power of dreams" isn't 2-B, then it can be as easily concluded that the English version of the statement also doesn't prove that the Dream Stone is 2-B, as the statement could've signified that the Dream Stone was symbolically made of actual dreams instead of dream worlds. Fortunately this confusion isn't the case, since as I wrote before, the context of Mario & Luigi: Dream Team makes it so that both the English statement and Japanese statement describe 2-B. Just like the Dream Stone being "made" of dreams in the English version is already established on the VS Battles Wiki to suggest whatever abstract stuff it suggests that makes it 2-B, the Dream Stone having the "power of dreams" in the Japanese version doesn't refer to having the power of actual dreams, but the dream worlds. Sure the "power of dreams" could mean reality warping, but the meaning behind the statement doesn't need to just stop there, and then again, and the Dream Stone being made of dreams in the English version could've just been a metaphor. The English statement could've just meant that the Dream Stone abstractly contained the dreams of characters alone, not the dream worlds in the Dream Depot that get created of the dreams, so the English statement could've warranted nothing to anyone, yet that's not the case to the standards of the VS Battles Wiki.

I think I have emphasized enough that, whether the Dream Stone is 2-B or not, the difference between the English statement and Japanese statement is not important, as either statement can be interpreted as not signifying that the Dream Stone is 2-B. For the rest of my message, I will follow along with the standards of the VS Battles Wiki and consider the statements proof of the Dream Stone being 2-B. The Dream Stone is not a tier way lower than 2-B, because lower power of the Dream Stone that was displayed such as when Neo Bowser's Castle destroyed islands didn't necessarily signify that the full power of the Dream Stone was used in those events. The destruction I mentioned was just to test out the power after all. Dreamy Bowser should have the full power of the Dream Stone because Bowser absorbed all of the Dream Stone when it became fragments and he transformed into a Dream Stone looking version of himself, even with the Dream Stone embedded on him. It meant that Bowser became one with the Dream Stone, and so it's best to deduce that he got all of its power.

(I don't want to watch this thread.)

 

[Foxthefox1000]

There's a big difference between "contains the power of dreams" and "it literally is a collection of dreams"

For one, the former doesn't imply it should have a 2-B scale at all even if we accepted it the way you interpret it. Being a collection of dreams would help it scale to the Dream Depot, but as it stands such range isn't stated in the original text, and the Japanese statement can easily just relate to singular dreams instead of a totality.

Secondly, "the power of dreams" even if you substitute dreams for universes doesn't mean that something scales to the full power of that something. The power of these dreams, whatever dream power even is, is unquantifiable by default. And it's literally a stated battery, which if you've known the arguments for things scaling to their power source, being a battery makes it VERY hard to justify for scaling.

The only reason it was 2-B was for being a collection of dreams. It is not in the original language. It is just a collection of the power of dreams, shown through Dream Orbs, which make no sense to be the dreams themselves. Everything about this is unquantifiable, and if it could passively absorb and contain every single dream ever it would NOT need to be charged through the Dream Orbs, which supports my argument and is a very glaring issue with the current interpretations (and at best would only be 2-C if we assume they're universes).

 

[Mephistus]

I get the dream spots thing, that doesn't seem like merging universes together though. If it's based off of dream orbs being universal in energy, then wouldn't Bowser's dream kinda contradict that? Antasma takes a notable amount of dream energy from that yet the dream continues existing.

There is a statement about Antasma consuming entire nightmares in the past, can't remember if it was stated that he had the dark stone at this point though.

If that same one is in the JP version, its definitely before he had desired for the dark stone, before he used to be a normal bat and that's what transformed him feeding off that energy.

 

[Antvasima]

@GyroNutz @DarkDragonMedeus

Can you try to reach an agreement regarding what we should do here, so we can finally end this thread, please?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

[...]

I don't really care if the Dream Stone is 2-B or not on the VS Battles Wiki, but my point is that your point about the different wording in the Japanese version of Mario & Luigi: Dream Team isn't what would get the Dream Stone downgraded. (Although I prefer to consider the Dream Stone 2-B, don't let that distract you from the purpose of me commenting here.) Your response still makes it so that the English version also shouldn't signify that the Dream Stone is 2-B using your reasoning for why the Japanese version shouldn't, since the Dream Stone being a collection of dreams and being "made" of that could mean a lot of things lower than 2-B. It could just mean that the Dream Stone is a collection of visions, of actual imagination rather than dream worlds, being made of imagination manifested in the form of a stone that has nothing more than sentimental value and the ability to make the imagination come to reality, which we can't really rank much. It could just mean that the Dream Stone is a collection of some dream worlds, rather than the entire Dream Depot which is a realm that was never mentioned during Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, making the Dream Stone 2-C instead of 2-B.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The narrative shows us that the Dream Stone needs to be powered up by the Dream Orbs created from dreaming citizens of the island. This is a plot point and the Orbs are the "dream power" the text speaks of, as well as alluding to the fact that dreams are intrinsically tied to wishes which is what the Dream Stone grants when powered up.

You cannot say the Stone is 2-B with this knowledge. It's just not logical. At best, again, you could argue 2-C, but that's IF the Orbs are universes and dreams themselves, which they're not. The citizens would literally be stuck in a coma if it actually absorbed their dreams and Luigi's dream world is not affected at all.

I don't know what else to say that I haven't already said before. Also something people barely bring up is the fact Antasma's first feat is destroying the Dark Stone easily. We cannot say it's an outlier because it's one of his ONLY feats and is the set-up for the whole story. If we do have the Stones at 2-B this makes anyone who fights Antasma scale to 2-B, but this obviously doesn't make sense.

And I still stand by the Void not scaling to physicals. It's something that starts just from the Chaos Heart being born, and Bleck even says himself that he cannot stop it. Dimentio could speed the process up but there's nothing saying he could stop it. It reads to me like the Void is just a byproduct of the Chaos Heart that can only ever strengthen, and it's pretty consistent that the Chaos Heart only protects to host and doesn't increase their own durability nor amps them in power as with our ratings for Bleck. There's nothing showing Dimentio is different and that it worked differently for him beyond headcanon. If anything he used less of the prophetic dark magic than Bleck did.

So again, I propose scaling the physicals of Super Dimentio above the Base Heroes, with a note that he's 2-B with the Void and can negate up to 2-B levels of damage for durability with the invincibility. I think these stats would at least be a good compromise.

 

[GyroNutz]

I don't know what else to say that I haven't already said before. Also something people barely bring up is the fact Antasma's first feat is destroying the Dark Stone easily. We cannot say it's an outlier because it's one of his ONLY feats and is the set-up for the whole story. If we do have the Stones at 2-B this makes anyone who fights Antasma scale to 2-B, but this obviously doesn't make sense.

The stones can have 2-B levels of power, hypothetically, without needing 2-B durability. Hell, even Starlow was capable of destroying the dream stone with Peach despite them thinking it would have made Bowser unstoppable.

Can you try to reach an agreement regarding what we should do here, so we can finally end this thread, please?

It seems like the Pure Heart/Chaos Heart stuff will remain 2-B, we're just discussing the dream stone stuff now and where that should scale.

If that same one is in the JP version, its definitely before he had desired for the dark stone, before he used to be a normal bat and that's what transformed him feeding off that energy.

Alright

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Except other artifacts literally made of universes are considered to need that level of power to shatter them. Unless we're just going to ignore those.

And again, I think 2-B should be given a note that it's only with specific abilities as that makes the most sense and is consistent with our Bleck profile.

And on another note we need to upgrade the verse again since we're using English and fine with it now I guess. Back to Low 2-C

 

[GyroNutz]

Except other artifacts literally made of universes are considered to need that level of power to shatter them. Unless we're just going to ignore those.

What other artifacts?

I also don't see why Bleck and Super Dimentio wouldn't be using the full power of the chaos heart for their attacks.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like the Pure Heart/Chaos Heart stuff will remain 2-B, we're just discussing the dream stone stuff now and where that should scale.

Okay. That is good then.

I trust your sense of judgement.

 

[Mephistus]

I also don't see why Bleck and Super Dimentio wouldn't be using the full power of the chaos heart for their attacks.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but, glancing at Tippi's tattle for Super Dimentio in the Japanese version and doing a cursory machine translation, it appears to say the same wording as the English version anyway with that body holding immense power due to being a fusion of the chaos heart, luigi, and dimentio. That would be another preferable quote to be added to the profile(s) if someone wants to formally translate it from here.

Since the Chaos Heart - which was directly said in the secondary canon guides to strengthen, fuel the void - ergo its not just some prophetic happening outside of the Chaos Heart's control and energy - and it continued the destructive expansion to envelop the multiverse beyond it being affected by the Pure Hearts at those two moments - there needs to be a better reason than presented thus far that their attacks and such was weakened to less than 2-B levels if its providing that passively and for that body.

 

[Antvasima]

@GyroNutz @DarkDragonMedeus

Can you try to reach an agreement regarding what we should do here please?

 

[Eficiente]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but, glancing at Tippi's tattle for Super Dimentio in the Japanese version and doing a cursory machine translation, it appears to say the same wording as the English version anyway with that body holding immense power due to being a fusion of the chaos heart, luigi, and dimentio. That would be another preferable quote to be added to the profile(s) if someone wants to formally translate it from here.

If you had the kanjis already scanned from there you should have shared them by moving image by image the dialogue boxes there into Imgur and writing their kanjis in their descriptions, or write the kanjis here.

Since the Chaos Heart - which was directly said in the secondary canon guides to strengthen, fuel the void - ergo its not just some prophetic happening outside of the Chaos Heart's control and energy - and it continued the destructive expansion to envelop the multiverse beyond it being affected by the Pure Hearts at those two moments - there needs to be a better reason than presented thus far that their attacks and such was weakened to less than 2-B levels if its providing that passively and for that body.

Something A can cause something B to have a feat at X high tier w/o something A having the same tier, something A may only have that tier on its ability to make something B do it, not itself. Let alone would its durability and every attack quickly thrown be the same when the feat in question takes notably more time than that to be finished.

 

[Eficiente]

It seems like the Pure Heart/Chaos Heart stuff will remain 2-B, we're just discussing the dream stone stuff now and where that should scale.

If you mean as in, we're not talking about the Pure Heart/Chaos Heart right now, sure. Otherwise the topid was managed beyond poorly with so little notable users caring to comment.

 

[JJSliderman]

Dream Stone might still be 2-B, I think what should be done is try to get a count of every NPC and organic enemy in Dream Team in the real world of Pi’illo Island that existed at the time the Dreambeats were playing, that’s probably the safe count of dreams that could have gone into the Dream Stone.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

No. The Dream Orbs aren't entire dreams nor are they universes. We've been over this.

Luigi goes to sleep. After that happens and Mario enters the Dream World, we get the dream orb cutscene. If these Orbs were the dreams themselves Mario would've been absorbed with Luigi's dream.

Antasma also directly says they are absorbing the energy from those who sleep. Nowhere is it stated dreams are being consumed. This "energy," again, is unquantifiable. We have no idea what the extents of this power is, just that it granted them enough power to create a barrier around the castle and lift it into the sky.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

But hey, if we're JUST using English now then my Japanese dream stone scan doesn't matter. The English says it contains dreams themselves, so it would then be 2-B. Simple enough.

Really, the opting for English sources invalidates this entire thread. Just find it funny what we cherry pick to support certain tiers or downgrades.

 

[Antvasima]

No. The Dream Orbs aren't entire dreams nor are they universes. We've been over this.

Luigi goes to sleep. After that happens and Mario enters the Dream World, we get the dream orb cutscene. If these Orbs were the dreams themselves Mario would've been absorbed with Luigi's dream.

Antasma also directly says they are absorbing the energy from those who sleep. Nowhere is it stated dreams are being consumed. This "energy," again, is unquantifiable. We have no idea what the extents of this power is, just that it granted them enough power to create a barrier around the castle and lift it into the sky.

@DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz @Mephistus

What do you think about this?

 

[Eficiente]

@Foxthefox1000 Would you like to make a blog on that to gather statements as bullet points and then a conclusion at the end?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I don't know. Maybe in the future. But I don't feel like it right now.

The English says it's 2-B though, so I guess it'll stay 2-B cause that's what we use. And the guides.

 

[JJSliderman]

It would be 2-B but, a lower degree of 2-B, maybe in the thousands at most. I don’t think there’s enough evidence to say Dreamy Bowser was amped by Dream Depot.

 

[Mephistus]

If you had the kanjis already scanned from there you should have shared them by moving image by image the dialogue boxes there into Imgur and writing their kanjis in their descriptions, or write the kanjis here.

Something A can cause something B to have a feat at X high tier w/o something A having the same tier, something A may only have that tier on its ability to make something B do it, not itself. Let alone would its durability and every attack quickly thrown be the same when the feat in question takes notably more time than that to be finished.

Here are the scans for you, anyone else, to machine translate for what I'm trying to explain. Maybe DDM or GYRONUTZ can explain it more eloquently on Super Dimentio's body's power being compared to the power of the Chaos Heart itself via those lines.

The Chaos Heart being used to create the mini-voids in the fight by Bleck can just as easily be argued to downscale to what the "main" Void passively does AP wise to be capable of sustaining/fueling it at its maximum size if we have to go there and I will bring up the area of effect fallacy here if need be; the heroes can survive the mini-voids and Bleck can physically ram you as a form of attack, they can attack him by stomps, shit scales to 2-B even by that metric really:

The timeframe of the Void that the Chaos Heart makes to consume the "countless" (if we were to go ahead and disregard the 2-A stuff with dreams and be conservative for the amount of people dreaming and how many universes the depot consists of) amount of universes is meaningless when compared to the timeframe of the attacks they both quickly throw out anyway since divisible by that timeframe and comparing the two we'd still get many times over 1000 universes being destroyed per second, even per nanosecond, with how much energy the Chaos Heart can compound to this specific ability to scale to 2-B even going by your example, which I have offered the original text that does support that it's not the case you have presented.

The other stuff about the Pure Hearts granting them power in the Japanese text can be transcribed by Fox since he brought that point up on the last page, but that only reinforces why it should more indicate 2-B stats physically scaling. Hell, the line is said by Tippi even when you have full HP and wouldn't need to be healed during the start of the second fight.

I also don't even believe that "weakened Super Dimento" should be less than 2-B durability wise, which would break the narrative, if he willingly went ahead with fighting the heroes in the soon to be destroyed dimension as well instead of fleeing over to where Bleck was in Dimension D where the Void wasn't at, but that's from another jp scan linked above w/ Dimentio saying when he teleports them away, with him wanting to deal with him later, so he does retain his basically instant dimensional teleportation he can do at will and all. The heroes kick his teeth in and the physical scaling still goes from there. He doesn't even properly give up and think the prophecy was wrong until the heroes defeat him, if he was going to die from the Void regardless of successfully killing the heroes or, why even bother putting up a fight if its the same fate. Everything points to his body still surviving the Void there in that state, even his head.

It seems like the discussion is veering away from the cosmology being affected and more on the mechanics of the scaling for that item?

@Antvasima

I currently think its fine to remove 2-B dream stone if we are going to say that the Japanese version of the game is the primary canon. Its not really certain how many universes/dreams that'd even contain I guess, being 2-C bare min assumptions, maybe more?

 

[Antvasima]

I currently think its fine to remove 2-B dream stone if we are going to say that the Japanese version of the game is the primary canon. Its not really certain how many universes/dreams that'd even contain I guess, being 2-C bare min assumptions, maybe more?

Okay. That is probably fine, if Medeus and Gyro find it acceptable.

 

[Eficiente]

The Chaos Heart being used to create the mini-voids in the fight by Bleck can just as easily be argued to downscale to what the "main" Void passively does AP wise to be capable of sustaining/fueling it at its maximum size if we have to go there

That's not the case as it already assumes those mini-voids to have a fraction of what the void would be at its best rather than the mini-voids just be what they are on their own, you don't have a reason to believe this works by fractions rather than the size of the void reaching into more than one universe being what makes it Tier 2, and hence smaller voids not being that, which is the most likely, otherwise many tiny bits of the real, max-size void picked up separately would all have the same tier as the void is as a whole, since it somehow works like some kind of DBZ ki attack in which every part of it has the same AP rather than its own final merit being its tier with everything it is put together. Added to that, even if this was something that could intuitively work by fractions, you don't know if something much smaller than the whole thing would downscale rather than it being unqualifiable.

I could use many examples of characters/things at X "low" tier with X super high tier by some power who can use smaller versions of it with a lesser tier, and that they do so because it's easier/takes less time/it's more practical/they have more space to do it, but you can give yourself an idea.

 

[Mephistus]

you don't have a reason to believe this works by fractions rather than the size of the void reaching into more than one universe being what makes it Tier 2

Unless you have a good reason to provide that the Chaos Heart was gaining power throughout the game, that is exactly what the mechanics will be assumed to work by. Even then there's more than one way to scale there, intuitively.

Okay. That is probably fine, if Medeus and Gyro find it acceptable.

Ok. I'm not really invested in editing the profiles or suggesting new key descriptions for like another 2 weeks, so they are going to have to go ahead with that on their own.

 

[Antvasima]

I currently think its fine to remove 2-B dream stone if we are going to say that the Japanese version of the game is the primary canon. Its not really certain how many universes/dreams that'd even contain I guess, being 2-C bare min assumptions, maybe more?

Okay. That is probably fine, if Medeus and Gyro find it acceptable.

Ok. I'm not really invested in editing the profiles or suggesting new key descriptions for like another 2 weeks, so they are going to have to go ahead with that on their own.

@GyroNutz @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think?