SMT Upgrades Part 1: Low 1-C Boost to infinity and beyond

[Yvel_Atsly]

Come on it doesn't make the stament invalid, you just posted a statement saying it "transcends" a past, present, future, something existing outside of space-time can do that in fiction and there is pretty common. Being above doesn't mean infinitely above and that is what is required to be Low 1C, The only proof I am seeing right here is a single, random quote from Stephen that isn't supported by anything. Low 1C is a complete different level of infinity that would inflate the entire verse. A single quote related to a context of time travelling isn't nearly enought to make a Low 2C construct like the Expanse a higher level of infinity, there are no quotes of it being a higher dimensional or a higher level of infinity at all and it was never portrayed as such to my knowledge.

You're saying time travel dosen't make the statement invalid? But those are both literally your arguments for being invalid as you said it was "hyperbole and flowery langauge" for time travel. And as Tony pointed out being of a higher plane beyond ect ect is also a valid way to prove higher dimensionality.

 

[SagaTheLegend]

You're saying time travel dosen't make the statement invalid? But those are both literally your arguments for being invalid as you said it was "hyperbole and flowery langauge" for time travel. And as Tony pointed out being of a higher plane beyond ect ect is also a valid way to prove higher dimensionality.

Yeah it doesn't make it invalid, it makes your interpretation (higher infinity beyond the multiverse) unlikely or outright invalid since it isn't supported by anything. I never said it was hyperbole, but flowerly language for time travel is a more valid interpretation since it is backed up by the context of the Expanse being used for Time Travel.

Tony just pointed out what is already in the tiering system page, higher realms need to have proof of trivializing everything below them similarly to a higher level of infinity.

From the tiering system: Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.

Expanse has never been called a higher dimension or compared to a higher level infinity, the tiering page clearly states the the kind of trivialization is by perceiving everything below it as fictional of infinitesimal, which the CRT has not provided evidence for so far. Being beyond or above =/= higher infinity and I have already pointed this out already.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

For the umpteenth time. Expanse is said to beyond the scopes and limits of time from a character with high cosmic awarness that's explained a function of the verse; Observation. Which it runs on and has consistent evidence that's been running on said mechanic since 1995. No there's no reason to doubt the Expanse somehow works contrary to what Stephen has said. And as i also said before; Stephen can warp time and space with his own power. He dosen't need to use the Expanse

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Yeah there is definitely evidence from the old SMT games that Expanse is a higher dimensional realm that trivializes the entire multiverse, perceiving it as nothing more than an infinitesimal construct. Now lets go back to canon, if there are such statements this is the time to post them, Stephen is a reliable character but he never stated that the Expanse is a higher dimensional realm or shares any of those properties I mentioned before, also not sure how Stephen warping spacing and time adds anything here really.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I've already mentioned the 5-D statement multiple times at this point. And what do you mean "Let's go back to canon"? And again, saying x level dimensional construct is a higher plane or state of existence is a common way to represent them which SMT does. It dosen't need to specifically use the words infinity to count as higher as D. Also Stephen warping space time is relevant cause that's one of your points of the scan being only about time travel

 

[00potato]

I don’t see too many problems but since it doesn’t scale mothman any higher it doesn’t really count.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

this dude really just said the older games arent canon

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No demon below Kagutsuchi scales to this. The 2-A scaling currently is way too generous.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

You're gonna need to substantiate why that statement is the case

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Kagutsuchi is literally stated to be what's powering every single demon in the Vortex World, and that's just a manifestation and not even the full entity. it's not exactly logical to scale a feat that applies to the full entity to every single demon in a long, long, long scaling chain.

Also there are other feats that aren't on the scale. For instance Ouroboros shouldn't be 2-A because we don't accept going from Low 2-C to 2-A via multiplication, and the statement for her AP is relying on outdated Dimensional Tiering.

The Four Kings' feat is just referring to the universe the game takes place. "Human World" isn't always meant to be the multiverse, and in the few times where it is they outright tell it.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

What does Kagutsuchi empowering Vortext demons have to do with this? And even if it dosen't affect the multiverse somehow it's literally a purely higher dimensional structure so blocking that out means they scale to said dimensional level. And Ouroboros got it for being the abstraction of infinity and eternity. Not multiplication

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

What does Kagutsuchi empowering Vortext demons have to do with this? And even if it dosen't affect the multiverse somehow it's literally a purely higher dimensional structure so blocking that out means they scale to said dimensional level. And Ouroboros got it for being the abstraction of infinity and eternity. Not multiplication

Ouroboros is multiplication, just in a fairly roundabout way. The logic is "4-dimensional power on a universal scale * Infinity = 2-A".

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I mean we're tying to make SMT characters Low 1-C and the Devas have been 2-A so that Low 2-C relation to infinity stuff dosen't even matter anymore

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What does Kagutsuchi empowering Vortext demons have to do with this

Because it shows that weaker demons scaling to Kagutsuchi is bullshit. They are astronomically weaker than a tiny manifestation.

Very very few people should scale to the higher stuff in SMT. Most strong demons are like, Low 2-C or 2-C at most.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I mean we're tying to make SMT characters Low 1-C and the Devas have been 2-A so that Low 2-C relation to infinity stuff dosen't even matter anymore

The Devas feat is fake. "Human World and Demon World" are used on a universal scale far more often, see the original novels and even events in the recent Mobile Game.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I already brought up how that wouldn't even invalidate the feat's power anyways.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Because it shows that weaker demons scaling to Kagutsuchi is bullshit. They are astronomically weaker than a tiny manifestation.

Very very few people should scale to the higher stuff in SMT. Most strong demons are like, Low 2-C or 2-C at most.

Matt. Just cause we're scaling lower demons to 5-D does not mean we're saying the Devas, Beelzebub or whoever exceeds Kagutsuchi in power

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Matt. Just cause we're scaling lower demons to 5-D does not mean we're saying the Devas, Beelzebub or whoever exceeds Kagutsuchi in power

So it's even worse. These lower demons shouldn't be Low 1-C. Dimensional Tiering isn't real.

 

[Darksmash]

saying x level dimensional construct is a higher plane or state of existence is a common way to represent them which SMT does

not at all.There are many many verses where higher planes of existence arent infinitely superior

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Just cause that's the case for some verses dosen't invalidate this one's case

 

[Darksmash]

I am asking why being a "higher plane" of existence means being infinitely superior?

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

How many times do i have to keep saying this stuff to you? It's represented as a higher plane and is said to be beyond the scope and limitations of a 4-D structure. It's simple

 

[Darksmash]

scans where it says "this structure is beyond the scope and limitations of 4-D structures"?

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Step- Forget it. It seems no matter what i explain to you you always somehow hear something different and take us around in circles. I'll simply just wait for others come

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The fact that many demons are demonstrably weak by feats invalidates this whole "The Expanse and demons are higher-dimensional therefore Low 1-C".

 

[Darksmash]

all I am asking is for some qualitative comparison to the multiverse
something as simple as "viewing the multiverse as a particle" will work just fine.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

To my knowledge this doesn't show up for ANY demon in the series.

There are some obscenely powerful gods in the series that can affect the entirety of the multiverse and the demon world, but you can count those types of feats on your fingers honestly.

And like I say, the entire plot of Nocturne relies on Kagutsuchi being responsible for creating the Vortex World and providing the power that allows demons to manifest there, and that Kagutsuchi isn't even the full entity who controls the entire Amala. So the idea that you can get demons at 2-A or whatever just because "Is an archangel" or "Is a demon lord" or "fought this guy who fought this guy who fought this guy who fought an archangel" is absurd.

I advocate for extremely conservative backwards scaling with SMT. The way the current profiles do it is ridiculous.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

To my knowledge this doesn't show up for ANY demon in the series.

There are some obscenely powerful gods in the series that can affect the entirety of the multiverse and the demon world, but you can count those types of feats on your fingers honestly.

And like I say, the entire plot of Nocturne relies on Kagutsuchi being responsible for creating the Vortex World and providing the power that allows demons to manifest there, and that Kagutsuchi isn't even the full entity who controls the entire Amala. So the idea that you can get demons at 2-A or whatever just because "Is an archangel" or "Is a demon lord" or "fought this guy who fought this guy who fought this guy who fought an archangel" is absurd.

I advocate for extremely conservative backwards scaling with SMT. The way the current profiles do it is ridiculous.

Wait what are you talking about by demonstrably weak feats? And no one said them being higher dimensional made them automatically 5-D. And again. No one is saying demons like Beelzebub scale above Kagutsuchi. Pay attention

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So you agree Beelzebub shouldn't be 2-A.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

First of all. It's Low 1-C. Second. I don't scale Beelzebub to Kagutsuchi. Neither does his profile. Quit arguing points no one is making

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

First of all. It's Low 1-C. Second. I don't scale Beelzebub to Kagutsuchi. Neither does his profile. Quit arguing points no one is making

What feat would Beelzebub even scale to.

Beelzebub is only 2-A due to backwards scaling from Kagutsuchi tho. He scales to other people who scale to Kagutsuchi.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

The profile says otherwise. You are literally just lying now. Or trolling. Either way this is getting very pointless

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The profile says otherwise. You are literally just lying now. Or trolling. Either way this is getting very pointless

I asked what the feat that would be Low 1-C even is twice now. What is it.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

On top of the board, duh

 

[Ionliosite]

Tbh, even when I agree that the Expanse is 5-D, I don't agree with the Four Devas scaling to it. Their feat is literally creating a barrier that stops it from merging with the world, not significantly affecting the Expanse itself nor destroying it, so they wouldn't scale to the Expanse to begin with. Demons who should be Low 1-C are those who are actually stated to be able to destroy the Expanse, like Kuzuryu, not the Devas whose feat simply isn't AP.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

They're feat is stopping the realm from passively absorbing and enchroaching the world which is sustained by their own power, and the fact their barrier is enough to not get swallowed by it shows they scale to the structure to some extent

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Matthew's sense of judgement regarding this subject. He is most likely correct.

We also have much stricter standards for dimensional tiering than we used to have.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Ant. Read what i said about Beelzebub's profile. It's literally contrary to what Matt is saying

 

[Antvasima]

I was referring to his points regarding that the weaker demons shouldn't scale to 2-A, but perhaps I should have read this thread more in-depth.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Yes. You should read more in depth before making a conclusion