SMT Upgrades Part 1: Low 1-C Boost to infinity and beyond

[Paul_Frank]

Arguing that the deva feat only scales to one universe is not relevant to the original point of the thread, which everyone, including the op, should get back on topic to.

The thread was about the tier of the expanse, you all can argue that the deva feat only scales to low 2-C, or that people shouldn't scale to it because of lower feats or what have you on a different thread, meant for that topic. Derailing a thread because you disagree with current scaling is not how things are done. As it stands now, they would all end up scaling to whatever comes of this thread, however, that doesn't mean you get to argue scaling on this thread when thats not the actual topic, you are free to make a crt regarding scaling afterwards, but stop derailing this one with it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Arguing that the deva feat only scales to one universe is not relevant to the original point of the thread, which everyone, including the op, should get back on topic to.

It is entirely relevant because the OP brings it up as the sole reason why demons would scale to Low 1-C.

Derailing a thread because you disagree with current scaling is not how things are done

This is literally the topic of the thread. If the Expanse is Low 1-C and which demons scale.

As it stands now, they would all end up scaling to whatever comes of this thread, however, that doesn't mean you get to argue scaling on this thread when thats not the actual topic, you are free to make a crt regarding scaling afterwards, but stop derailing this one with it

This is ridiculous, you're just further compartmentalizing the discussion, apparently so that characters can be inaccurately upgraded on this thread solely so they can get downgraded later.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

It is entirely relevant because the OP brings it up as the sole reason why demons would scale to Low 1-C.


This is literally the topic of the thread. If the Expanse is Low 1-C and which demons scale.


This is ridiculous, you're just further compartmentalizing the discussion, apparently so that characters can be inaccurately upgraded on this thread solely so they can get downgraded later.

No. I said cause being able to signicantly affect the space which transcends all points in time is Low 1-C. Do not put words in my mouth. Matthew Schroeder

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

That's irrelevant. In the scene itself nothing indicates it's the entire scale, just one that applies to consuming the "Human World". Which as per the context of the game is either just Earth or at most the universe. And most likely the former really.

You're addressing a point which isn't actually relevant to what i'm saying cause i've already addressed why scale dosen't matter. Either address my actual point or concede

 

[Paul_Frank]

No, the thread is about the tier of the expanse, who would scale is literally a side effect as thats the currently accepted scaling. The op could have omitted mentioning it and the result would be the same, since this just affects the tier of the feat they already scale to.

And Matthew, if you feel it's inaccurate to scale, that's why you should make a crt, instead of waiting for crts on different topics to come in and complain about the scaling. If you feel the deva feat is not accurate, make a thread for that, that's the point of crts, to revise what you think is inaccurate if you have proof, however, you are not supposed to come in to crts meant for other things and argue your ideas.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No. I said cause being able to signicantly affect the space which transcends all points in time is Low 1-C.

It's not actually. You cannot prove that any demon such as the Four Devas were scaling to the full extent of the demon world, and as per how things work in this wiki it won't be Low 1-C if they did it on a universal scale for obvious reasons.

And Matthew, if you feel it's inaccurate to scale, that's why you should make a crt, instead of waiting for crts on different topics to come in and complain about the scaling

This is a thread about expanse extent and scaling, it is entirely reasonable. What you are basically asking is that this CRT go through, everyone becomes innacurately upgraded, and then putting the entire responsability for me on a later thread to try and downgrade it back. Probably knowing that downgrades on VBW are virtually impossible.

 

[Darksmash]

None of the scans that have been provided are enough to prove the expanse is a higher dimensional construct.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

This is a thread about expanse extent and scaling, it is entirely reasonable. What you are basically asking is that this CRT go through, everyone becomes innacurately upgraded, and then putting the entire responsability for me on a later thread to try and downgrade it back. Probably knowing that downgrades on VBW are virtually impossible.

He's not trying to force you to downgrade. He's telling you to make your own CRT about the Devas if you feel that strongly and stop derailing my thread. Cause that's not how things are supposed to be done

It's not actually. You cannot prove that any demon such as the Four Devas were scaling to the full extent of the demon world, and as per how things work in this wiki it won't be Low 1-C if they did it on a universal scale for obvious reasons.

When did i ever say they scaled to it 100%? I said to scale to an extent. And again either make your own CRT afterwards and stop derailing mine. Now matter how many times you bring up universal scale it's still just beating around the bush of my argurment. Actually adress it or please stop derailing

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He's not trying to force you to downgrade. He's telling you to make your own CRT about the Devas if you feel that strongly and stop derailing my thread. Cause that's not how things are supposed to be done

I don't think it's derailment. You're the one who brought it up in the first place.

When did i ever say they scaled to it 100%? I said to scale to an extent.

So not Low 1-C.

Now matter how many times you bring up universal scale it's still just beating around the bush of my argurment. Actually adress it or please stop derailing

I already addressed the scale of the expanse several times, as did other users, you're just caught up on the Devas argument. I brought the Devas up to say that even if you were right about the Expanse it still wouldn't put them at Low 1-C, as you brought them up yourself in the first post as your argument for which demons would scale.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

No, the thread is about the tier of the expanse, who would scale is literally a side effect as thats the currently accepted scaling. The op could have omitted mentioning it and the result would be the same, since this just affects the tier of the feat they already scale to.

And Matthew, if you feel it's inaccurate to scale, that's why you should make a crt, instead of waiting for crts on different topics to come in and complain about the scaling. If you feel the deva feat is not accurate, make a thread for that, that's the point of crts, to revise what you think is inaccurate if you have proof, however, you are not supposed to come in to crts meant for other things and argue your ideas.

Refer to this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I literally addressed it in an old post. .-.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Sigh. I'm just going to wait for more people since we're at an impass right now

 

[Paul_Frank]

This is a thread about expanse extent and scaling, it is entirely reasonable. What you are basically asking is that this CRT go through, everyone becomes innacurately upgraded, and then putting the entire responsability for me on a later thread to try and downgrade it back. Probably knowing that downgrades on VBW are virtually impossible.

It quite frankly doesn't matter if you think downgrades are virtually impossible, even though that's a laughable notion considering how much stuff actually gets downgraded when sufficient evidence is brought.

What does matter is that, for the third time, this thread, is about the tier of the expanse, and the scaling is just a byproduct of the already existing scaling, thus, since your issue is with the existing scaling, it's not the same topic as this thread. There is no argument to be had here Matthew.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What does matter is that, for the third time, this thread, is about the tier of the expanse

I addressed it already in my posts Paul.

and the scaling is just a byproduct of the already existing scaling

It's both actually.

since your issue is with the existing scaling, it's not the same topic as this thread.

It is both are thoroughly correlated.

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew:

Are there any of the suggested changes that you consider acceptable?

Also, if the knowledgeable staff members that I notified earlier do not show up, you can ask them to comment here via their message walls.

Amelia did show up though, so no need to notify her.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Are there any of the siggested changes that you consider acceptable?

I think that the entire Expanse being Low 1-C is fine.

My problem is with applying massive changes that would themselves be innacurate based on this alone, so I believe it would be more productive if simultaneously with the Expanse's size we also decide the tier and scaling.

 

[Eganergo]

I agree with Matt. If we don't decide the scaling... there is nothing to change in this revision other than minor explanation.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

The scaling chain is just a byproduct of the current scaling and we already have the Expanse's dimensional level. What is there to discuss?

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Lets see where this is going. Expanse being Low 1C still sounds like a massive stretch and only relies on a single quote by Stephen taken at face value. I would suggest waiting for more evidence like statements that compare the multiverse being infinitesimal or qualitatively inferior compared to the Expanse like what we have for the the dimensionality of YHVH's branes before deciding to upgrade it.

But yes, scalling is extremely important here and it should likely be discussed.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

That's derailment cause that's not the point of the thread

 

[Eganergo]

I agree with Low-1C expanse/the scan however. Stephen is the smartest guy in SMT and the closest to the Great Will/Axiom. He even surpassed YHVH by great margin. If there is someone words to believe in SMT, it has to come from Stephen. We all need to remember that expanse is treated differently in each series, at least it has different place in SMT II and IV. In SMT II iirc, it was said that the expanse is an otherworldly plane which can not be reached by conventional means (I don't have the scan though, barely played it).

Now, as to whether we can use that scan or not, as it come from dlc iirc, I have no say for that.

 

[Darksmash]

It's not about merit,the scan itself is too vague to suggest higher dimensionality

 

[SagaTheLegend]

I still don't see see how that scan would upgrade this since it doesn't meet any of the standards for Tier 1. Anyone who knows the ungodly distance between Tier 2 and Tier 1 should already know that a single, vague statement like this wouldn't be enought. Is anyone really serious about inflating a Low 2C, at best 2A realm to a higher uncountable infinity based on just a single DLC side quest scan that makes no comparisons about levels of infinity? If so, I might just give up hope here.

 

[Eganergo]

I mean, when Stephen says "transcend", it must mean transcend. When he says "alternate space" he must mean "alternate space". Stephen says no hyperbole, he either says the truth or not saying anything at all. I have a suggestion, to see the Japanese (original) scan and translate it. Sometimes translator be like that.

 

[SagaTheLegend]

I mean, when Stephen says "transcend", it must mean transcend. When he says "alternate space" he must mean "alternate space". Stephen says no hyperbole, he either says the truth or not saying anything at all. I have a suggestion, to see the Japanese (original) scan and translate it. Sometimes translator be like that.

Transcend just means above, not higher level of infinity or high enought qualitatively superiority like viewing it as a fictional construct. That would just be baseline 2A without evidence such as comparisons of levels of infinity which is needed for the Tier 1 according to the page itself.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I agree with Low-1C expanse/the scan however. Stephen is the smartest guy in SMT and the closest to the Great Will/Axiom. He even surpassed YHVH by great margin. If there is someone words to believe in SMT, it has to come from Stephen. We all need to remember that expanse is treated differently in each series, at least it has different place in SMT II and IV. In SMT II iirc, it was said that the expanse is an otherworldly plane which can not be reached by conventional means (I don't have the scan though, barely played it).

Now, as to whether we can use that scan or not, as it come from dlc iirc, I have no say for that.

The Expanse is a bit different each time around but it's still the same general thing like all demons. And we literally used DLC to scale characters all the time on this site. So saying this one is somehow different would be arbitrary

 

[Darksmash]

"Transcend" itself is a vague term.What kind of transcendence exactly?The coordinate from AoT is also said to transcend space time IIRC.
Transcend just means surpassing.Surpassing "past present and future" is very clearly hyperbolic for a location that can access different points in time aka time travel.I don't see why it is being equated to "trivialising the multiverse as an infinitesimal"

 

[Eganergo]

Also, Expanse is also a place to contain all the demon from SMT, ranging from low 2c to a full blown infinite*infinite 2A whatever.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Stop bringing up Attack on Titan. I don't know what that coordinate is or how it works and you haven't explained it. And Stephen says "a place" for saying transcending as he's very clearly referring the structure itself. And this case of referring to something physical he's saying the Expanse goes beyond the limits of time across the multiverse. Therefore showing it's qualitively superior as it is beyond limits of said cosmology level and as the tiering system also said higher planes of existence or structures represent dimensional spaces often

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Stop bringing up Attack on Titan. I don't know what that coordinate is or how it works and you haven't explained it. And Stephen says "a place" for saying transcending as he's very clearly referring the structure itself. And this case of referring to something physical he's saying the Expanse goes beyond the limits of time across the multiverse. Therefore showing it's qualitively superior as it is beyond limits of said cosmology level and as the tiering system also said higher planes of existence or structures represent dimensional spaces often

Yes but only when they trivialize the lower space as something infinitesimal or fictional which the Expanse doesn't.

Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.

The entire page equates them to levels of infinity. I explained this already.

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

I know. They are levels of infinity but they don't have to explicity state infinitely above each and every time. Stop treating that way of higher dimensional access as the only possible way of getting it

 

[Darksmash]

That's the only possible way of getting it.You are basically saying providing proof is not the only way to prove something

 

[SagaTheLegend]

I know. They are levels of infinity but they don't have to explicity state infinitely above each and every time. Stop treating that way of higher dimensional access as the only possible way of getting it

I'm just quoting the official tiering system page. If a dimensional isn't functionally infinitely superior in relation to the lower, it doesn't qualify for higher infinity, This is plain and simple to understand. Of course a explicit statement isn't the only thing that can prove it (but is the best and most reliable way), a scan that alludes to that or shows it to work that way in practice should suffice. "Transcend", "surpass" or "above" don't necessarily qualify for that, those statements only matter when there's supporting evidence,

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

(To Smash cause this comment came late) You are literally the one saying dimensional levels can only be accessed by a specific type of proof and another proof that is not said specific proof is automatically wrong.

 

[Darksmash]

I am saying you need a direct qualitative comparison of some kind.Transcend or surpass don't mean anything

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

Transcend does mean something but you keep relating it a hyperbole or some other word. And i specifically mean transcend in the context of being beyond the limits of something. Not simply surpass, not be above

 

[Darksmash]

Going beyond the limits of past present and future aka time travel

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

How is it time travel if Stephen specifically notes the place itself is transcendent over time, Darksmash? Properely address that. Also do you have anything else to say? Otherwise i'll count your vote as an agree for the thread @Egernago

 

[Darksmash]

dude literally read the scan posted by saga in post #23

 

[Yvel_Atsly]

And you should go back see that i've said Stephen dosen't need the Expanse for time warping at 25.