Small Luffy's update

[The_Calaca]

During his fight against Katakuri, Luffy was shown keeping up with him even in his base form, tagging him on two different instances.

Katakuri is rated as Relativistic+ for keeping up with Boundman and Snakeman, so this is a simple update.

Luffy's profile should reflect he possess Relativistic+ speed. He dodged and fought Katakuri for half a day.

It'd look like this:

Relativistic+, higher with Gears.

I'll post links if needed.

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

Well if he tagged him then he should be around the same speed, I agree.

 

[Listentomyrhytm]

I agree

 

[Js250476]

I'm cool with this

 

[Xulrev]

This is recursive scaling.

"Katakuri scales to Luffys fastest forms which scales to Luffys base forms".

Faster Luffy>Slower Luffy in speed??

 

[Damage3245]

This doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Snakeman is explicitly much faster than base Luffy.

If Katakuri is on par with Snakeman Luffy, then it makes no sense at all to say that base Luffy is equal to Katakuri in speed.

 

[The_Calaca]

Luffy's obviously slower than Katakuri if the latter was able to compete with Snakeman, but he was able to dodge him for most of the fight and even tag Katakuri on two occassions while in base.

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

Oh wait I kind of disagree now... the scaling is going all over the place..

 

[The_Calaca]

I never said Luffy = Katakuri tho.

People tend to think that "comparable" means "equal" for some reason.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Luffy was getting tagged a lot in the fight so maybe "At Least MHS+, Likely Rel+"?

 

[Damage3245]

Perhaps you could lay out what numerical value they could scale to, instead of just the tiers?

 

[The_Calaca]

How? There's no multipliers for the Gears. It's literally impossible to find an arbitrary number for that as it is guesswork.

Luffy was getting trashed at the start of the fight, but once he started evolving his Haki he became much faster, able to dodge a Danmaku-ish barrage of punches while in base and stopping a giant Mochi Punch with an Elephant Gun.

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

I guess he can be around the speed just not equal to Katakuri because he did tag him twice..

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

"Possibly Rel+, higher with gears. " seems to be the best solution then.

 

[AstralKing7]

Isn't this circular reasoning?

 

[The_Calaca]

How? Katakuri is scaling to Snakeman while Base Luffy is backscaling to Katakuri.

 

[CinCameron20]

I actually blame the scaling where individuals claim that "Katakuri is stronger and faster than Bound Man" which is entirely unsupported and head-canon. Both Gear 4th modes are evidently faster than Katakuri.

The scaling (if accepted) would not be circular, it would simply be the following (I'm adding a single step to each line):

1st: Katakuri somewhat -> Bound-man (scaling from pre-Haki upgrade Luffy, as he was capable of pressuring him and landing attacks--though this can be attributed to Katakuri also having future-sight)

2nd: Base Luffy (Post-Katakuri) somewhat -> Katakuri somewhat -> Bound-man Luffy (This is as the fight progressed and Luffy became more efficient with Haki and was capable of evading some of Katakuri's attacks. By the end of the fight, Luffy was somewhat capable of keeping up with Katakuri, although he was clearly slower than him).

3rd: Snake-Man Luffy -> Katakuri -> Bound man Luffy (Snake-man is stated to be faster, and was capable of out-speeding Katakuri without the latter utilizing his future-sight to evade and block attacks)

Here's what the real scaling chain looks like currently, and I see nothing wrong with it (strictly focusing on the most sensible path since there are a couple weird branches for why some commanders have a MHS+ rating before their Rel+... spoiler: it's cuz Luffy before Dressrosa scaled from MHS+, and some characters have looser reasoning for scaling to Rel+):

Snake-Man Luffy (Poss Rel+) -> Katakuri (At least MHS+, Possibly Rel+) -> BoundMan Luffy (Poss Rel+) -> Doflamingo (At least MHS+, Possibly Rel+) -> Jozu/Aokiji (AtleastMHS+, Poss Rel+ and Rel+ respectively) -> Marco/Kizaru (Rel+) -> Kizaru's light beams feat (SoL, giving Marco's Rel+ speed)

So, tell me... where's this so-called circle? Answer: There's none.

 

[The_Popular_Loser]

I actually blame the scaling where individuals claim that "Katakuri is stronger and faster than Bound Man" which is entirely unsupported and head-canon. Both Gear 4th modes are evidently faster than Katakuri.

I mean Katauri did nerf himself for luffy to win the fight so...

 

[CinCameron20]

Tl;dr:

In regards to speed:

Snake-Man > Bound-man >/= Katakuri > Base Luffy for the Katakuri chain

Snake-Man > Bound-Man > Doflamingo >/= Jozu </= Aokiji = Kizaru/Marco for the Gear 4th Luffy chain.

Doflamingo > Base/2nd Gear Luffy is what gives the MHS+ rating overall. Poss Rel+ comes from catching Jozu and nearly killing Smoker despite Aokiji's interference.

 

[CinCameron20]

I mean Katauri did nerf himself for luffy to win the fight so...

I agree in regards to when he discovered their fight was interrupted by Flampe. But before-hand, Bound-Man Luffy was laying waste to Katakuri without his future-sight, and he only managed to keep pace and take the advantage after he calmed down and activated his power.

He definitely went all out against Snake-Man Luffy, but overall that was a near-equal fight. Snake-Man was faster, and Luffy acquiring future-sight helped circumvent Katakuri's effectiveness.

• Though tbh, a lot of Luffy fights end up with him winning due to plot needed to move forward... He should not have beaten Katakuri, Doflamingo, Crocodile, and survive Marineford, but he did...

 

[Dr.Fix]

Strange I though base Luffy already scaled to possibly rel+ . .. . .

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - I have not had a hand in some of the more recent edits, but let's see:

... You're right. I think I touched up on that some time after the edits, since he managed to keep up with a wounded Doflamingo, and Doflamingo complimented his speed.

I think this thread is kind of redundant. The MHS+ rating should stay simply because it comes from a valid scaling, and emphasizes that characters scaling as "MHS+, poss Rel+" are slower than the characters that are simply "Poss Rel+" or "Rel+". At least in most cases. I doubt we'd all come to agree that "Doflamingo is comparable/equal to the likes of Kizaru or Whitebeard"

 

[Dr.Fix]

Hmm yea trying to get a consensus can be challenging if not impossible. Feats are pretty straight forward though and all the high tiers scale to some extent to each other without massive gaps. The calc itself is just a lttle over + margin so I can see how all of them getting that is a bit challenging. I think the MHS should be removed as should the at least high 7-A stuff (Though the calcs remain for future of course) but I doubt I'd get that put through atm.

 

[VioIeLFC]

There was nothing wrong with him beating doffy, surviving mf not necessarily a bad thing either

 

[CinCameron20]

@Viole - Surviving MF when he was running solo for more than the first half is very plot-armor (Also pressuring Magellan was another questionable thing when everyone including Jinbe at the time were scared of him).

For Doflamingo, it seemed like the Katakuri situation.

• Luffy getting stomped all over the place,
• something causing a disruption for D/K allowing Luffy to land a blow (Law Shambles for Doffy landing a red-hawk, Katakuri's anger allowing a kick to his jaw),
  • Luffy uses Bound-man here for Katakuri, resulting in some more injuries, but nothing to hinder Katakuri later on
• then it goes back to him getting demolished in a fight,
• An outside force resulting in D/K becoming severely injured (Law's Gamma Knife crippling Doflamingo and evidently leaving him weakened for the rest of the fight, Katakuri stabbing himself to make up for the injury Luffy inflicted via Flampe)
• Only difference is: Luffy had help in the fight vs Doffy while Katakuri had unwanted help vs Luffy,
• D/K continue to Low/mid-diff Base and Gears Luffy,
• Luffy initiates Gear 4th (Bound Man for Doflamingo, Snake Man for Katakuri)
• Doflamingo survives the onslaught and can continue fighting (While Luffy runs and hides), but this is where the climax for Katakuri's fight happens
• Luffy uses his strongest attack in each respective Gear 4th mode and defeats both of them.

^I don't see how Doflamingo lost if it was established that he was healing himself over time, Luffy was straight up no match without his Gear 4th (Even with Law throwing surprise attacks left and right), and Doflamingo could still take the hits before KKG--suddenly his attacks and barrier don't cushion it enough to weaken the impact (Who knows, he could've gotten up if the marines didn't chain him up).

My rant is over. I'm just gonna say the thread is kinda pointless since Luffy already has "At least MHS+, Poss Rel+" for managing to keep up with Doflamingo and Katakuri anyways.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - The High 7-A stuff is somewhat necessary due to many characters scaling around that (Fujitora, Luffy, and anyone who has fought Base Luffy and hurt him). The MHS+ is >Mach 6610 unless you were talking about something else.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin No i was refering to the Marco being just over the margin of Rel. I'm not quite sure what you mean with the other point about Fujitora and don't want to risk insulting you by presuming.